 Poster: A snowHead
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AndAnotherThing.., Very true I know some (French instructors) who are very stressed over this being the end of their career
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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material has been transferred to webpage
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Tue 26-05-15 23:21; edited 1 time in total
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It's heartening to be reassured that it's not official BASI policy to forbid free speech or uncomfortable scrutiny! 
In all the various court actions fought by BASI members against illegal ESF practices, BASI has I believe publicly supported precisely zero; let alone instigating any such actions in the interests of their members, even though many cases were upheld by the courts. No-one would suggest the ISDT's are not well represented by BASI, it's the lower levels who, since the 90's, have worried that they have been sold up the river. Many officials of BASI have done and do do a great job, but to present the organisation as whiter-than-white when there is anecdotal evidence of sweetheart-deals, an internal pull-the-ladder-up-behind-you lobby etc. is misleading. A read through the "Eurotest" thread in the Bend-Ze-Knees forum will confirm that there are many murky periods in the history of negotiations with the ESF.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SkiPresto, just to quote from your linked thread to save people the trouble of clicking and scrolling:
| Quote: |
I am Simon Butler and would like to clear up a few points. I have been taken to court regarding ski teaching in France several times over the years, culminating in the recent court case in 2006 when the Jeunesse des Sport and the ESF lost their case against me. My lawyer is issuing the press release that appears on this site to the national press. I was obviously delighted with the court decision which represents a landmark case that will now allow not only qualified British instructors, but thier equivalent EU nationals, to teach skiing without the need to take the Speed Test.
My qualifications have often been questioned. To clear this up, I have been working in the ski industry for nearly 30 years. I first passed my BASI 3 in the 1978/79 season, aged 16 years. I passed my Grade 2 in the 1981/82 season, and my Grade 1 in the 1985/86 season.
I was not required to take the Speed Test as I was on the original list of Grade 1s to receive the Equivalence at the time this was first required in France. Unlike the other instructors who held the same qualification, BASI did not grant me the Equivalence - mainly because I employ Grade 3 and 2 instructors.
I have run a ski tour operation in the French resort of Megeve for 26 years and employ nine British qualified ski instructors of different grades - all are working their way through the system. All team members receive training to develop their own skiing and teaching skills. We have a strong history in the teaching team of instructors who have progressed through to achieve the highest qualifications. |
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^
Not sure the statements made in the petition are actually correct?
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| Quote: |
I was not required to take the Speed Test as I was on the original list of Grade 1s to receive the Equivalence at the time this was first required in France. Unlike the other instructors who held the same qualification, BASI did not grant me the Equivalence - mainly because I employ Grade 3 and 2 instructors.
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So, does Simon Butler have "Equivalence" or not?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| shep wrote: |
| It's heartening to be reassured that it's not official BASI policy to forbid free speech or uncomfortable scrutiny! |
Although some members would, allegedly, like it to be.
SkiPresto It appears that Simon Butler has been taken to court on more than one occasion for alleged infringments of French law regarding ski teaching. He appears to keep winning his cases so it would seem he is doing nothing illegal.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I've signed it but there's only just over 200 signatures....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Let's put this in perspective. Yes Simon has his equivalence and is fully legal in France.
The Ministry of Sport say that he is employing stagiares (trainees) outside of French regulations and this is illegal. The court of first instance agreed. Simon is appealing this and seems to have some backing from the European competition committee. Therefore he may win at a European level. Perhaps though only after going to jail.
BASI too is fighting the rules on stagiares at a European level, since the changes in the rules appear protectionist i.e. protecting big ski schools (not just ESF's) and racist since foreigners cannot have stagiares.
For the moment though, Simon's method of working is against French law.
There is no war at a local level, most French Instructors cannot be arsed with the whole thing, even the old instructors are happy to let things run their own course and let the ministry of sport deal with the whole thing.
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| Saint wrote: |
| The Ministry of Sport say that he is employing stagiares (trainees) outside of French regulations and this is illegal. The court of first instance agreed. Simon is appealing this and seems to have some backing from the European competition committee. Therefore he may win at a European level. Perhaps though only after going to jail. |
Just to clarify the process is: first instance court, appeals court, French supreme court (this would make case law), European court. In general that takes about 10 years. European law can be raised at any court though, assuming the European legislation has been transcribed into French law. You can't just go straight to a European level as national governments are supposed to integrate European law into their national law.
The last case we heard about on snowheads was the 2006 case where SBS published a statement in 2008. I assume you are talking about a new court case?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Saint wrote: |
BASI too is fighting the rules on stagiares at a European level, since the changes in the rules appear protectionist i.e. protecting big ski schools (not just ESF's) and racist since foreigners cannot have stagiares.
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Interesting. So BASI have done nothing to challenge the Eurotest on behalf of their lesser qualified members, but are keen to secure a deal whereby the schools run by senior BASI luminaries can use them as junior instructors? 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| beequin wrote: |
| Quote: |
As anyone who cares to enquire already knows, it is even harder for a French National to get fully qualified.
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Can anyone corroborate thsi? |
As far as I know:-
In the French System, Candidates:-
Only get accepted for training after passing the Test Technique.
Must pass all levels in three years or start from the bottom again.
Can only enter Eurotests in France.
Can only enter a limited number of Eurotests a year (2, I think)
Must train under a full diplom Professeur at an approved ski school
There may be more, but that's a summary.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Lesser qualified members of BASI do not have to pass the Eurotest why would BASI challenge anything?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| davidof wrote: |
| Just to clarify the process is: first instance court, appeals court, French supreme court (this would make case law), European court. In general that takes about 10 years. European law can be raised at any court though, assuming the European legislation has been transcribed into French law. You can't just go straight to a European level as national governments are supposed to integrate European law into their national law. |
It's more complicated than that. Most EU law is in the form of Directives which, as you say, must be transcribed (incorporated) into national law. However there are situations in which national courts are obliged to apply EU Directives even if not transcribed or incorrectly or partially transcribed into national law. This is referred to as "direct effect" and it is supposed to stop national governments from failing to transcribe Directives they don't like. Broadly, it doesn't apply between individuals or companies ("horizontal direct effect") but may apply to the actions of government or quasi-governmental bodies ("vertical direct effect"). In this case, since it's agencies of the French government that are enforcing French national law, vertical direct effect would come into play i.e. French courts must follow EU competition law even if it conflicts with French national law.
However there's a principal of "proportionality" that comes into play where national and EU laws come into conflict. If the French regulations are anti-competitive in nature (not much doubt about that) or tend to discriminate against non-nationals, are those consequences proportionate to the benefits of safety they are intended to achieve? That, clearly, is a matter of judgement. On the whole the European Court of Justice has been quite sceptical as to special pleading of this nature but as you say, it would be a long time before this case arrives at ECJ level, if ever.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Skipresto: I believe that is right. The same rule applies to British candidates for the Eurotest - only 2 attempts in a year but they can be taken anywhere, I believe. However, in a recent Eurotest set up in GB and run in Cairngorm, no-one passed, despite having some very high quality entrants - the standard is simply so high.
My son has achieved ISIA (Basi Level 3) after significant investment and intensive training over 3 years and is working towards ISTD + Eurotest. I believe that even BASI recognise that it costs somewhere in the region of £35,000 in total to achieve ISTD and a minimum of 6 years full time work. So don't underestimate the investment and effort involved - and for those who say, "if you want to work in France, just get qualified to work there" , please recognise that there are many people who have worked incredibly hard and invested significant money to become highly skilled instructors, only to fail the Eurotest by fractions of a second and so fail to achieve their hard earned ISTD qualification.
I think it is also fair to say that, having been through the BASI system, instructors receive no help, support or guidance from BASI in finding work - we have certainly seen no evidence of BASI 'looking after' its more junior members!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Saint wrote: |
| Lesser qualified members of BASI do not have to pass the Eurotest why would BASI challenge anything? |
I observe that BASI behaves as a welcoming organisation. For a very good reason: It's a bad business-model to put people off especially if they have the time, the enthusiasm and the wherewithal to come on all the BASI courses.
On the other hand in the French system you have to be a very accomplished skier even to start on the first rung. (Test Technique).
BASI allows people to rest on their laurels at any lower level - and still call themselves a ski instructor level 1/2/3/
Whereas in the French system if you don't pass the lot in 3 years (In BASI That would be Level 4), you are out.
(Please take as read the usual disclaimer: My views are my own and may or may not align with those of the BASI)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rsvpann wrote: |
Skipresto: I believe that is right. The same rule applies to British candidates for the Eurotest - only 2 attempts in a year but they can be taken anywhere, I believe. However, in a recent Eurotest set up in GB and run in Cairngorm, no-one passed, despite having some very high quality entrants - the standard is simply so high.
My son has achieved ISIA (Basi Level 3) after significant investment and intensive training over 3 years and is working towards ISTD + Eurotest. I believe that even BASI recognises that it costs somewhere in the region of £35,000 in total to achieve ISTD and a minimum of 6 years full time work. So don't underestimate the investment and effort involved - and for those who say, "if you want to work in France, just get qualified to work there" , please recognise that there are many people who have worked incredibly hard and invested significant money to become highly skilled instructors, only to fail the Eurotest by fractions of a second and so fail to achieve their hard earned ISTD qualification.
I think it is also fair to say that, having been through the BASI system, instructors receive no help, support or guidance from BASI in finding work - we have certainly seen no evidence of BASI 'looking after' its more junior members! |
Hi There rsvpann.
At the risk of drifting off-topic.... My point was that it is much more stressful to be in the French system where you run out of time to pass, than in the BASI system where you can take as long as you like.
Don't worry, I've been there and spent a fortune myself. I haven't passed ISTD yet, but I'm a much better skier than I was without the training.
BASI Allows 5 tests per year - which is quite sufficient.
(BASI Website)
| Quote: |
| The price per 2012-13 Eurotest will be the same as last year with the candidates’ first test of the season priced at £55 and any subsequent test priced at £95. BASI candidates will be entitled to take part in a maximum of 5 Eurotests per season. |
The Eurotest standard of 0FIS+18% for men is a very high standard. It is salutary to see that at Cairngorm, only one of the men would have passed the 0FIS+24% level set for women.
BASI isn't a Teachers' Union - so you wouldn't expect the organisation to find work for members, but there is a very large network of help and part qualified instructors should have no difficulty finding work.
(My views are my own etc...)
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Hi Skipresto. Thanks! I'm not in any way knocking BASI - absolutely understand their role and the nature of the organisation. And I agree that doing the ISIA/ISTD training is a massive bonus in terms of competence. Thanks for the up to date info - I hadn't registered the 5 attempts at Eurotest in a season and I don't think my son had either.
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You would think that with all this fuss over who can and can't teach that the French would be or must be good at skiing.......... 
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| robboj wrote: |
| You would think that with all this fuss over who can and can't teach that the French would be or must be good at skiing.......... |
are they not?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent. |
LLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOLLLLLL
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Rumors in the ski industry grape vine that crystal are taking 60% less rooms in France fro next season.!!! Cause and effect
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| robboj wrote: |
| You would think that with all this fuss over who can and can't teach that the French would be or must be good at skiing.......... |
are they not? |
hahahahahahahahahahahaha
I've recently returned from a lovely visit to a truly French ski area. Based in St Jean D'Arves and skiing Les Sybelles (we ticked the lot, every (open) run). It was lovely not hearing any English, except our own, apart from 2 other groups. Even saw someone skiing in a beret (at a jaunty angle) (that was a first in 30 years). It's where the one piece suit goes to die (except they all looked rejeuvenated).
And the point of all this? Never seen such an abysmal standard of skiing in my life. We renamed tete de bellard to, .... something else...... looked like a scene from the somme, bodies everywhere. A recuring theme, and all "locals". I love France, but this was scary, very scary.....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Maybe they need lessons?
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SkiPresto, i would be curious as to how long your personal experience of this isuue dates back to? And what dog you have in the fight? 
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You know it makes sense.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Maybe they need lessons? |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| Rumors in the ski industry grape vine that crystal are taking 60% less rooms in France fro next season.!!! Cause and effect |
*thinks............. start a "Lets Boycott France" thread ...............Thank you Crystal ...*
If this is true I doubt it has a great bearing on the theme of this thread, more so on the resurgence of arrogant attitudes hellbent on maximising ripp-off closed shops/protectionist legistlation.
Sadly, what the French don't fully understand that, despite France being the most wonderful country in the world, there's a number of other countries close by that have some exceptionally wonderful elements........... like ski resorts!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| under a new name wrote: |
| SkiPresto, i would be curious as to how long your personal experience of this isuue dates back to? And what dog you have in the fight? |
No dogs.
please stick to the topic and just leave out any personal stuff. Thanks
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| Rumors in the ski industry grape vine that crystal are taking 60% less rooms in France fro next season.!!! Cause and effect |
ha ha, some people will believe you! Crystal cut chalet capacity by 40% in 2010 before any of this got serious, when reports had stated a similar percentage fall in Brits taking holidays in the alps. I doubt that figure has got any better given the state of the economy, so if those rumours are confirmed it strikes me as normal downsizing far from the ski host issue.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I agree with this comment from Julian Griffiths on facebook;
| Quote: |
You guys need to separate the law from the rules.
The Law, European Law allows for freedom of movement. The rules are based on private agreements between associations. I'm not sure the Law has ever been tested. That is to say the instructor has to be stopped or witnessed teaching then taken to court. This process has to exhaust the national courts and their appeals process and be taken to final arbitration at a european level. This has never been done so in a sense nobody knows whats legal and what's not.
Everyone understand consensus and the consensus within the involved associations is that it's not allowed but that doesn't mean it's beyond question or illegal. Clearly mugging someone is illegal but this argument will boil down to wether or not this instructor can teach skiing in the UK and and if so is there a substantial difference between his qualifications and others used for teaching in the UK or other parts of Europe.
In all reality it will be someone from another country a Dane, an italian or a Bulgarian who will bring down the current agreements. If they fall there needs to be a sensible discussion about an alternative set of regulations. This will be hard to accomplish as most of the involved parties have massif invested interests in the current set up. |
Lots of comments in this thread refer to 'rules, heresay & general assumptions' not relevent law.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| alti - dude wrote: |
| http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22029309 |
| Quote: |
Mr Casey was arrested at Megeve ski station on Tuesday for not having the correct qualifications.
A Chamonix police spokesman denied there was a clampdown. |
What with Chamonix's police having nothing to do with Megeve's actions, and all that.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 4-04-13 20:47; edited 3 times in total
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Wrong! the French sports ministry is following the law as they see it. Rules:they are following already agreed rules (in Europe) about who is a properly qualified ski instructor( MOU ) so if Alex ( who is a really nice guy) falls outside the rules he us illegal.
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There is one major mitigating factor that the Simon Butler has in his favour.
The clients are all his own, and they bring a lot of money into the village.
For that: Good luck to him.
However, you have to play the game and get along with the locals.
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This kind of sums the French ski resort ethos up for me. I have had a week in France this winter and a short break in Austria and the difference is quite remarkable between the two.
The Austrians were charming, friendly and very pleased to welcome us, the French were not.
The prices in Austria for general day to day things(beer and grub on the hill and out of an evening) were HALF the price that we were charged in France!!!!! YES I DID SAY HALF! Oh and it was 0.5 of a litre of beer too not 0.4.
I really do think that it will be a while before I for one venture back to France.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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No, no mitigation if you are in France follow French law (also in this case European) does he insist his coaches for transfers drive on the left? No but in terms of the stagiere thing I am 100% in agreement
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
Everyone has to accept that without complaint or special pleading.
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent.
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It's hard to know what to say.. |
Luca Brazzi sleeps with the fishes.
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FAQ
