 Poster: A snowHead
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Nadenoodlee,
Merlot or Grenache? 
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Wed 3-04-13 21:53; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Nadenoodlee, the French have learnt subtlety rather than pomposity
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Well it would be highly surprising if Les Pulls Rouges wern't involved in stirring it in some capacity
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Perhaps but from my understanding of things, the relation ship with ESF and a number of British Operators in Megeve is quite good with a number of operators still offering accompanied skiing openly. I was there less than 2 weeks ago and witnessed it.
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he holds level 2 he can take as long as he want to fully qualify and continue working in a British ski school environment. A British qualification in the EEC.
Stagiere is a French position held by trainees working in a French ski school.
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Th^^^^ All of Simon's staff are BASI level 2 or 3 (Well the ones I have meet and skied with). Have spoken to him today and they are in shock and devastated, I am sure like the Epic Ski case the media involvement has led to a case of the French now trying to save face and digging their heels in.
Regardless of what you think of French teaching requirements the rules are the rules and they are the same for everyone if you are French or not. if Simon and his group are playing by the rules they should be left to it, if they are not the rules need to be enforced consistently and fairly.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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MJS, Simon Butler Skiing has bent over backwards to come to an accommodation with the ESF in Megève over the years.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Fattes13, there are two ISTDs (including Simon) currently at SBS.
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| MJS wrote: |
Please do boycott France and....
no wonder everyone hates the Brits..... |
Whilst utterly agreeing with the fist part............. I assume the second is because of General De Gaulle. 
Simples.......................... despite some glorious skiing France just isn't worth the aggro. Maybe it'll take a while longer than a couple of seasons, but many British skiers that also ski in Austia/Italy/Switzerland will reflect on France ski hols as less than perfect for a lot Euros. Austia/Italy/Switzerland on the otherhand are less Euros for the same lack of perfection. QED,............ a better holiday than France.
I've not skied in France since 2009. For exactly this stupifying frenchie bolshyness.
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laundryman, I knew Simon was and one other, thought most if not all of the others teaching were BASI 2? But not 100%
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theskibob, I am actually embarrassed to be around other Brits whilst on Holiday in France. The general attitude of owning the place is sickening. This is why Brits get aggro.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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MJS, I'd certainly be embarrassed to be around anyone tossing around gross generalisations - but that's not limited to any one nationality.
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laundryman, surprised you're on snowheads then
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| MJS wrote: |
| Nadenoodlee, the French have learnt subtlety rather than pomposity |
Since when?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The French are clamping down on everything at the moment, if you don't have the right paperwork and qualifications then you can't work.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Dunk wrote: |
| under BASI assuming he holds level 2 he can take as long as he want to fully qualify and continue working in a British ski school environment. A British qualification in the EEC |
Interesting comment. Do you mean that as SBS is a British ski school then instructors who are not fully qualified can work for SBS whilst continuing their exams?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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theskibob, I am actually embarrassed to be around other Brits whilst on Holiday in France. The general attitude of owning the place is sickening. This is why Brits get aggro.
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Give me brits to ski with any day, some years ago, you could tell whether it was a weekday or weekend in Soldeu by the shape of the lift queue.
Weekdays, it would be about 90% brits skiing and the queues were like the animals going into the Ark, two by two, no pushing in, breathing space between each skier, no shoving etc.
On weekends the Spanish and French took over as the brits went shopping or transferred, the queues went fan shaped as everyone pushed into the front and the only way to get on the lift was to push and shove your way through the queue.
Lift queue behaviour does seem to have improved in recent years (in France and Andorra at least)
Having spent some time working with French engineering companies and skied with French at UCPA last year, on a personal level, when you get to know each other I really like the French and curse myself for dropping French at school in favor of German.
The bottom line is that you get good people and knobs in all nationalities, just the knobs stand out more.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Am I understanding it correctly that an EU citizen has a general right to work in any EU country? If so, does that general right not have to be qualified by the right of a particular country to set the qualifications required for a particular kind of work? I am qualified to teach English in Scotland, but does that qualify me to teach in another EU country whose language I may not speak even though I have this general right to work in those places. Anyone coming to Scotland looking to teach in state schools with a foreign qualification has to have that qualification checked by the General Teaching Council to ensure that it meets the standards required of our own teachers. That seems a necessary and reasonable way to ensure those from other countries working here have trained and qualified to the same level.
France has determined the qualifications required for ski teaching. At the highest level, Level 4, that includes the requirement to pass the Eurotest. At Level 2, the requirement is that you are engaged as a stagière by a ski school which meets the requirements to employ stagières. I hope I've got all of that that right, but the point is that I, with an IASI Level 2 qualification that is internationally recognised, I can no more set up to instruct in France on my own or work for a ski school that does not have the right to employ stagières than as a fully qualified Scottish teacher I could expect to teach in a French lycée.
None of that prejudges what is going on in particular cases being talked about, but is simply intended to say that the French have every right to set their snowsports teaching standards and to regulate those who are teaching to ensure they are met. I suspect most of you, especially those with children, expect us to do the same regarding teaching in schools and those who are allowed to teach in them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ccl, agreed.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ccl wrote: |
| France has determined the qualifications required for ski teaching. |
It is not quite that simple in the EU. France has to accept equivalent professional qualifications. They cannot impose additional requirements on people qualified in other EU countries. However they do seem to operate "numerus clausus" in a number of areas. For example chemists. A UK qualified chemist can work in France (they would have to speak pretty good French mind to get a job) but he/she can't open a chemists shop. I've no idea if this is legal under EU law.
I just read through the summary of the 2008 SBS case and the French prosecutor was unable to show why the set-up SBS had was not equivalent to the French setup. Now that may be that the prosecutor wasn't very good and didn't present evidence, or it may be that the SBS setup is equivalent, as far as the court is concerned, to the French ski school setup. The case had no general ramifications for other instructors due to law changes subsequent to the trial (transposition of EU law into French law). SBS lost an earlier case on a different matter. He was found guilty both times of various offences concerning employment and licensing. Both were at lower courts. If someone wants to detail the other cases I'd be interested.
Here is some food for thought from the Belgium Ski Instructors
http://www.ec-oe.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/Ski_instructors_in_France/Loisirs_Actifs_Europe__en_.pdf
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 4-04-13 8:42; edited 1 time in total
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ccl, EU countries do not have a general right to set their own standards to apply to other EU nationals seeking work there.
The general principle is that they must accept the level of foreign qualification immediately below their own that would enable the migrant to work in his own country (including none at all, if applicable). This is precisely to prevent the erection of artificial barriers. For (highly dubious, IMO) reasons of safety, there is an exception for ski instruction, which standardises on the ISTD; so non-ISTDs cannot practise independently if the host country does not wish it; but can as part of a ski school. On that basis, SBS won a court case on appeal in France (about 6 years ago, IIRC) to enable it to continue with its business model.
Since then, additional regulations have been promulgated in France on the organisation of ski schools (centres de formation). The affect of those is discrimatory against new entrants and foreign organisations, so it is difficult to see how that is compatible with single market laws. SBS took an even earlier case to the European level and won, and it may well be that the current case heads in that direction.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| SBS won a court case on appeal in France (about 6 years ago, IIRC) to enable it to continue with its business model. |
As far as I'm aware it was not on appeal but in a first instance court.
http://pistehors.com/news/forums/viewthread/126/P15/#419
You should read that link very carefully as it sets out exactly what was decided by the French courts.
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davidof, thanks for the link.
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| Dunk wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, quite possibly but one of the Gendarmes could ski..... |
I don't find it odd that someone can ski even if they come from Paris or Bordeaux (for example).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Looks like this guy is well out of order if he is not only instructing without an IST Diplom, but employing others without ISTD, and selling ski school lessons.
If he is also trying to get away with sponsoring stagieres, that's fuel to the fire.
If he's been operating a business like this for decades I am not surprised he has got himself arrested.
Behaviour like this may well bring BASI and its members into disrepute? What is the official line, I wonder?
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Looks like this guy is well out of order if he is not only instructing without an IST Diplom, but employing others without ISTD, |
He isn't. He is employed by an organisation headed by ITSDs.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SkiPresto, BASIs own actions, in the cynical way they have for decades colluded with ESF against the interests of the majority of their own members, have done enough to bring themselves into disrepute, with no help needed from SB.
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Does it count as a flashmob if they weren't singing or dancing or making a video for youtube? Was it not just a 'protest'?
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Looks like this guy is well out of order if he is not only instructing without an IST Diplom, but employing others without ISTD, |
He isn't. He is employed by an organisation headed by ITSDs. |
Yes, Thanks for correcting, it's the Simon Butler company which employs him and is trying to sponsor stagieres?
I'll try to piece together the story, but if anyone could oblige with an up-to-date summary, I'd be very much obliged.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| monkey wrote: |
| Does it count as a flashmob if they weren't singing or dancing or making a video for youtube? Was it not just a 'protest'? |
This is France, it's definitely not a protest if you're not throwing missiles at the police. If it took place during lunch I imagine the Gendarmes didn't even notice.
Although I agree that some Harlem Shake action would have got them a spot on the BBC.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Just so we can understand exactly which qualifications does Mr Casey hold?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| laundryman wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
| Looks like this guy is well out of order if he is not only instructing without an IST Diplom, but employing others without ISTD, |
He isn't. He is employed by an organisation headed by ITSDs. |
Yes, Thanks for correcting, it's the Simon Butler company which employs him and is trying to sponsor stagieres?
I'll try to piece together the story, but if anyone could oblige with an up-to-date summary, I'd be very much obliged. |
From what I've read: Apparently Simon Butler school has nine istd instructors, rules say they need ten to take on stagiaires.
The chap arrested was an instructor for ten years.
From what I understand: I was always told you can only be a stagiare for two. So how does that reconcile?
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Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 4-04-13 14:03; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| shep wrote: |
| SkiPresto, BASIs own actions, in the cynical way they have for decades colluded with ESF against the interests of the majority of their own members, have done enough to bring themselves into disrepute, with no help needed from SB. |
ShepI'm not letting that pass. There are a large number of BASI ISTDs working and making a living in France, and are well represented by BASI.
Unless someone is fully qualified (in BASI that means ISTD), they can't work in France unless as a Stagiere. Everyone has to accept that without complaint or special pleading. As anyone who cares to enquire already knows, it is even harder for a French National to get fully qualified.
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent.
(I don't speak for BASI - It's all my own views which may or may not concur with BASI)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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albinomountainbadger, SBS has two ISTDs to my knowledge.
The rules around "stagiaire" status are the crux, I believe; and whether the french regulations can be used effectively to exclude small businesses and those run by non-French ITSDs from employing sub-ITSD qualified non-French instructors.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As someone who knows the company well and has friends employed there - let me try to give you an accurate picture of what is going on here.
Simon and Jay, who run Simon Butler Skiing, are both fully qualified ISTDs. They have operated a British business in Megeve for more than 20 years, employing 9 BASI qualified instructors, all holding either BASI Level 2 or Level 3 (ISIA) qualifications. Simon ran this business model for many years, before the French introduced new rules requiring anyone non-French teaching in France to have the full ISTD (with Eurotest) equivalence.
Simon runs his business as a ski school and monitors, regulated and provides professional training to his staff.
After the law was changed (meaning that in French law Simon was no longer allowed to employ the equivalent of 'stagieres') he went to court, lost his initial case in France but then won it on appeal. The French judge ruled that the need to pass the Eurotest was an excessive requirement for instructors teaching at the level required to do the job and that Simon should be allowed to continue his business model. He has worked in Megeve since, following that ruling.
Since then, the law was changed again, to insist that only a large ski school, employing 10 full ISTDs, can employ anyone with lesser qualifications. Effectively this means only the ESF. However, Simon identified and was prepared to recruit an additional 8 fully qualified ISTDs to comply with the new law, only to be told that they were not eligible as they were not French nationals and did not hold French qualifications, only the equivalent international one.
Simon is currently fighting this in the European court, as French law here is in direct conflict with EU law which does not allow this type of protectionism.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
| If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent. |
Wow, do only members get to criticise BASI? Bet the ESF wish they had thought of that.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Everyone has to accept that without complaint or special pleading.
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent.
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It's hard to know what to say..
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| laundryman wrote: |
albinomountainbadger, SBS has two ISTDs to my knowledge.
The rules around "stagiaire" status are the crux, I believe; and whether the french regulations can be used effectively to exclude small businesses and those run by non-French ITSDs from employing sub-ITSD qualified non-French instructors. |
Yes, I see now from rsvpann's post that I was confusing their intention to take on nine istds. Apologies for any confusion.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
As anyone who cares to enquire already knows, it is even harder for a French National to get fully qualified.
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Can anyone corroborate thsi?
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beequin, It relates to the test technique and the time in which people in the French system have to pass the Euro test.
In other Ski Instructor qualification systems there is no requirement for the test technique or a cut off period/limit on the number of attempts at the Eurotest.
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FAQ
