 Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| last time i checked France was part of the EU and they need to follow their rules and regulations as well. |
What EU rules are the French breaking, do you think?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I know nothing about this topic so this is a question, can one apply different employment laws to foreign workers as to locals?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sadly, at the end of the day, the only way for me or anyone else to show our detest over this deplorable approach of monitoring a system, is to vote with your feet.
I love skiing France, but I am so sickened by this, I don't feel like going back to Megeve, or France for that matter.
And, I'm not even British, I'm a full blooded yankee, but you know how us yanks are, ever since we all got past that little tiff around 1775, we stick together...
In all seriousness, even though my children learned great skiing and achieved the French Gold Standard, after having muddled through ESF instructors speaking primarily French, and I therefore am not personally affected by this. It's a matter of principle.
I mean detaining him for 9 hours?
And there are drunks out there that are threatening the well being of real persons are held for less than that? It is just so wrong.
I've had my own run ins with the French Police, non skiing related, but equally ludicrous, and costing me dearly, so I know what this is like, and it is exactly the opposite feeling that one has living in a free country. It is the most repressive of experiences. And then you know, what the Jews felt like living under Stalin.
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| Quote: |
its not a concept the stops outsiders from publicly stating their views.
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but that's precisely what seems to be being suggested. Or have we misunderstood?
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1st RULE of BASI: You do not talk about BASI.
2nd RULE of BASI: You DO NOT talk about BASI.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
its not a concept the stops outsiders from publicly stating their views.
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but that's precisely what seems to be being suggested. Or have we misunderstood? |
It's one person's stupid opinion and it can't stop non BASI people stating their honest option in public.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 5-04-13 22:23; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| 3VVs wrote: |
surely if you want to work in a foreign country you need to follow the rules and regulations of that country. If you need a BASI 4 and a Eurotest to work here as a ski instructor and you choose to come and work here, then that is what you need.
If that instructor wasn't properly qualified, then he shouldn't be working in france |
He can certainly work in France - for the ESF, or other centre de formation. The issue is whether his employer is entitled to employ him (apparently not under current French law, which certainly contradicts the spirit, and quite possibly the letter, of EU single market regulations, because it discriminates against employers who have not gained qualifications through the French system).
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| laundryman wrote: |
| 3VVs wrote: |
surely if you want to work in a foreign country you need to follow the rules and regulations of that country. If you need a BASI 4 and a Eurotest to work here as a ski instructor and you choose to come and work here, then that is what you need.
If that instructor wasn't properly qualified, then he shouldn't be working in france |
He can certainly work in France - for the ESF, or other centre de formation. The issue is whether his employer is entitled to employ him (apparently not under current French law, which certainly contradicts the spirit, and quite possibly the letter, of EU single market regulations, because it discriminates against employers who have not gained qualifications through the French system). |
OK, I see what's going on now.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
Of course individuals can be criticised freely. Criticising your members' organisation in public is quite a different matter.
What was meant is: BASI is an organisation of several thousand members, and it doesn't do the individual member much good to criticise the organisation and any of its perceived failings in public. It should be done in private amongst other members to avoid damage to reputation.
BASI business (e.g. raising old accusations from days of yore) should remain private and there is a procedure for sorting out grievances.
On the other hand, Non BASI members shouldn't get involved at all in BASI business matters that shouldn't concern them.
I hope that puts the matter into proper perspective.
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We have an established right to publicly comment and opine on all sorts of organisations such as Governments, Churches, Charities, Tour Operators (or equivalent), etc. Why do you think BASI, of all things, should be beyond this? |
The first rule of BASI club is........ You do not talk about the BASI club.
The second rule......
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| skimottaret wrote: |
| last time i checked France was part of the EU and they need to follow their rules and regulations as well. |
What EU rules are the French breaking, do you think? |
TFEU Article 56, free provision of services. Article 45, no discrimination in employment based on nationality. Both are relevant here. There's a whole raft of EU case law related to national laws that discriminate in effect, including cases related to recognition of employment qualifications.
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You know it makes sense.
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Yes, they are being very naughty and bottoms need spanking.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Lets just remember we're talking about the same France that closed its border with Italy to calm North African immigration during the Libyan revolution. If they don't care about those sorts of EU obligations then it's fairly clear they won't care about the rights of a relatively tiny group of middle-class Brits.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I tried to touch on this on a previous post...
From what i understand, and i am open to correction... there are various British Ski Schools in France who employ ISIA qualified Instructors. However... from what i've been told, none of these schools have been granted Training status, thus none of them are able to employ and train individuals towards full qualification in the French system.
The reason for this has never been explained.
I would love to know the number of Foreign Instructors who have gone through the French system and fully qualified.
Or how many Foreign Instructors are employed by the ESF.
When you look at Ski Schools around the rest of the World...many are made up of International Instructors.
Just a thought....
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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This is the key in this situation. As far as I know, there are NO British ski schools in France employing ISIA qualified staff. (ISIA requires significant training and passing tough tests in both technical skiing and teaching, as well as a European Mountain Safety award. There are 9 modules in total and you have to be a seriously good skier and teacher to achieve even this status). The French require all instructors in France to be even more highly qualified, to ISTD level.
In the ESF system, instructors qualified to the French equivalent of ISTD are allowed to employ and 'supervise' lesser qualified trainees and train them up as they work towards the highest level of qualification. No British School is allowed to do this. Several have applied for training status but have not been awarded it. One of the criteria is that a training school must have 10 fully (top level) qualified staff - effectively only the ESF are big enough to do this. Whilst in theory, a British ISAI can be a trainee in the ESF they have a restricted number of places which go, of course, to French trainees in most instances.
In the case of Simon Butler, Simon investigated employing 10 ISTDs and found qualified staff who agreed to work for him and become the 'supervisors'. The French response was that as they had qualified through BASI rather than the French system, they were not eligible.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Surely if the regulations have recently changed there should be (have been) some transition period from one set of rules to another to allow smaller schools to either sort themselves out or be grandfathered in ... that's what would normally happen in the UK with new regulations.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| rsvpann wrote: |
This is the key in this situation. As far as I know, there are NO British ski schools in France employing ISIA qualified staff. (ISIA requires significant training and passing tough tests in both technical skiing and teaching, as well as a European Mountain Safety award. There are 9 modules in total and you have to be a seriously good skier and teacher to achieve even this status). The French require all instructors in France to be even more highly qualified, to ISTD level.
In the ESF system, instructors qualified to the French equivalent of ISTD are allowed to employ and 'supervise' lesser qualified trainees and train them up as they work towards the highest level of qualification. No British School is allowed to do this. Several have applied for training status but have not been awarded it. One of the criteria is that a training school must have 10 fully (top level) qualified staff - effectively only the ESF are big enough to do this. Whilst in theory, a British ISAI can be a trainee in the ESF they have a restricted number of places which go, of course, to French trainees in most instances.
In the case of Simon Butler, Simon investigated employing 10 ISTDs and found qualified staff who agreed to work for him and become the 'supervisors'. The French response was that as they had qualified through BASI rather than the French system, they were not eligible. |
This is the crux imho... how can they not be eligible if they are ISTD which is Internationally recognised (even by the French  ). Surely this contravenes European working boundaries?
On the other hand... aren't New Generation Brit owned?
They have ISTD qualified staff and run courses through BASI up to Eurotest!!!
http://www.skinewgen.com/meet-the-team/basi-trainers/
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The simple truth of the matter is, if the French appreciated the British speaking ski schools, were it even for one small reason, their presence could be seen as welcome addition the further development of the ski tourism industry in France, as such the authorities at be would work with the small niche organizations to come up to speed to rules and regulations they also see as necessary and vital, because they ARE integral to greater good.
As it stands, they aim to only make it more difficult. British instructors, tour guides, or probably even clotted cream, simply aren't welcome in France.
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spud, yes they do, but isn't there a difference between running BASI course, and having 'stagieres' actually working for you as instructors? Perhaps their teaching hours have to be carried out elsewhere? They have a work and train programme, but that seems to run in Nendaz.
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Places like New Gen are training paying punters even if those punters are themselves lower level instructors. The French are trying to block dirty foreigner owned schools from maximising their potential , to use the popular buzzword bingo phrase, leveraging their resources i.e. using lower paid, lower qualified instructors. While they obviously keep a very close eye on their stagieres and don't just farm them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Interesting quote from that link... especially the last sentence...
Christian Delafield, our course director in Serre Chevalier has skied for over a quarter-century. He is fully qualified under the French system with a Brevet d’Etat d’éducateur sportif (B.E.E.S. 1er Degree) in Alpine Skiing. Originally from Jersey, he is leading the charge to bring more foreign nationals into the French system, with total support from the French themselves.
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New Gen run exactly the kind of set-up we re talking about in Verbier. They run a training team, in which ISIA qualified instructors can join New Gen's training team and teach for them as they continue their training towards ISTD following the BASI system. This is perfectly acceptable in Switzerland. However, they are not allowed to do this in France. As part of my son's ISIA training with New Gen in Courcheval (paying New Gen for his training) he was set up to do teaching hours but had to cross the border into Aosta Valley to do his teaching experience in Italy. The following year, also with New Gen in Nendaz, he taught for Neige Aventure with no problems whatsoever. So even New Gen haven't cracked the French system!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Forget all the previous blah from all the people who now live in France and love it. If they love it that much let them stay there for good and become French. Let them stay there and cuddle up to the French we dont need them. Go any where other than France. I would not spend a euro in there country. The French do what they want. So hit them in there pockets and dont go there. It wont take long for them to realise there mistake if we dont spend any money over there. Then come back to the UK and get a proper job. Thats my rant for the day. I am now going out for a meal and will eat some French horse meat!! 
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| THE THING wrote: |
| Forget all the previous blah from all the people who now live in France and love it. If they love it that much let them stay there for good and become French. Let them stay there and cuddle up to the French we dont need them. Go any where other than France. I would not spend a euro in there country. The French do what they want. So hit them in there pockets and dont go there. It wont take long for them to realise there mistake if we dont spend any money over there. Then come back to the UK and get a proper job. |
Is that what you're suggesting Simon Butler should do?
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You know it makes sense.
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How dare you say that Ski Instruction is not a proper job. Alex included we love our profession and are proud of it , the only question is how we follow it and where. Many or you on these forums have no idea how hard we have worked to follow our dream. dangly bits - Alex may or may not be legal but no one can say he does not care about his profession.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I did not say dangly bits who the hell is editing this - if so change the spell check to ENGLISH please. Said nicely !
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Poster: A snowHead
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Saint, you should use "preview" if you don't want any nasty shocks.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A few years ago I met a French guy who was doing the BASI system; wonder what they'll make of him when he gets around to work experience.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| A few years ago I met a French guy who was doing the BASI system; wonder what they'll make of him when he gets around to work experience. |
Bonjour Joch?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I did say dangly bits but I meant what I wrote. which was the real language version of dangly bits I was only surprised it was edited! dangly bits! See - edited again!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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SAINT..........I have been a qualified instructor since 1980 and have worked in Scotland when it had snow and Europe. Its not a proper job. Tell me in 5 years time if your still doing it full time when you have a family and are thinking about your pension. Then you will get a real job. Pay your taxes in the UK and give nothing to the French. It does not matter what qualification you have from what ever country or how good you are. The French are protecting there own instructors jobs. I dont agree with it but thats how it is.
All the firms that bend the rules cant moan. They were AT IT bending the rules and have now got caught out. IF YOU CANT DO THE TIME DONT DO THE CRIME!! sIMPLES!! 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| THE THING wrote: |
| Forget all the previous blah from all the people who now live in France and love it. If they love it that much let them stay there for good and become French. Let them stay there and cuddle up to the French we dont need them. Go any where other than France. I would not spend a euro in there country. The French do what they want. So hit them in there pockets and dont go there. It wont take long for them to realise there mistake if we dont spend any money over there. Then come back to the UK and get a proper job. Thats my rant for the day. I am now going out for a meal and will eat some French horse meat!! |
Thanks for the advice. I've considered it carefully and chosen to completely disregard it.
I'm very much looking forward to spending some more Euros in France later this month. Almost certainly some of those Euros will be spent on horse meat. C'est délicieux!
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In a few years time you might be able to spend your own Scottish money, "THE SKINTO" instead of the euro. Then you will have to move to europe to get a job as there wont be any in Scotland along with no snow to ski on.
Any way cant talk any more about the French as i am reading a book about French collaberators during the war. Loads of them about especially in ski resorts!
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No snow in Scotland to ski on? There is plenty around at the moment. Also I'm fairly sure the employment sector I work in won't disappear if independance happens.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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MJS,
Laundryman is quite correct, the only legislation which matters are the European Directives. You did write about the local laws but you should note that these local French laws are subsidiary to EU Law. These local laws often contradict EU law and historically, over the past 40 years, these local laws were upheld by French Regional and National courts but then were thrown out by the European Court of Justice, (ECJ). Each time the ECJ overturned a decision made by the National Courts they imposed a fine on the offending State, not for having an illegal 'local law' but for failing to apply EU Law at National level. Not surprisingly FR is getting rather fed up with this so what we are now witnessing is the National Courts overturning 'local laws'. As an oversimplification one should regard these local laws as being similar, albeit, slightly supercharged bye-laws that are (formally) written by town, city or county councils in the UK
3VVs,
Well of course your 2 Scottish friends support the arrest. They have a vested interest in ensuring that a very limited number of instructors are able to work in Europe, or more specifically FR. It is standard 'supply and demand', if the supply of instructors is limited then the instructors who are in resort can demand whatever they wish. For many years the French were soundly criticised by very senior BASI trainers for being 'protectionist', 'using restrictive practices' and creating a 'cartel' by dragooning the AU & IT into a pre-eurotest examination (Test de Capacite). However, when those same people were given a 'free pass' into France (nudge, nudge, wink, wink - say no more) they became the staunchest advocates of the same protectionism. Poacher turned gamekeeper.
Given that your 2 Scottish friends are ISTD's and work in Courchevel or Meribel I probably know them, but might have wished for a more considered judgement especially if one of them may have a Law degree. While you accept that you "don't know enough to be able to give a proper opinion' perhaps you should familiarise yourself with the facts surrounding the whole sordid business, Try reading the last couple of pages (at 28 pages it is one of the biggest) of the 'eurotest' thread on Snowheads
For the purposes of clarification: there is no EU Directive which states that every instructor who works in France must pass the 'eurotest', ergo, there is no law to that effect. There is an agreement, not legally binding, with selected Ski Instructor Associations within Europe which the people on the BASI Board (and historically the majority for them were/are ISTD's) have signed up to.
Philbo,
Has one considered that the instructor in question might actually be taking a principled position?
The principle position being that the eurotest is a protectionist, restrictive mechanism which has no relevance to ski instruction. The European Directive does provide for the opportunity "experienced migrant workers to display their competence' without having to undergo a blunt force trauma such as the eurotest. Unless of course the test is, as FR (and the CEO of BASI at AGM) has always claimed it to be - 'a test of safety'.
A spokesman for BASI, Mr Renouf, is quoted yesterday on the BBC website: "Passing it ensures a technical standard that keeps clients safe."
"This is European law and you would expect the French police and the local magistrates to apply the laws as they understand them."
I would have this to say to Mr Renouf
Could you please explain the precise mechanism which occurs that makes an instructor 'safe' in the immediate millisecond after he/she passes the eurotest?
And
Exactly which European Law might you be referring to?
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I struggle to believe that any logicial, unbiased thinker would believe the safety justification so giving Mr Renouf some credit I suspect he's toeing a BASI political line, sad that a spokesman has to be so disingenuous. Unfortunately doing over rather than supporting his members in the process.
If the safety justification is true than surely Renouf and BASI should be lobbying heavily for mandatory re Eurotesting every few years as most professional organisations would expect that safety critical elements are refreshed frequently.
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FAQ
Or have we misunderstood?
