 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Duplicate
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 5-04-13 13:49; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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To work in France you need without doubt a eurotesto unless you are a registered stagiaireo
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
A Lurker,  Doing your bit to relieve the monotony that has become this thread |
Monotony = two sets of bindings on a single tony
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I've not read every posting on this thread (despite being blameworthy for starting it) but would contend that teaching skiing - especially to bread-and-butter beginner-intermediate groups - is not the most testing profession. Most of the time it's a piece of pish.
I did my BASI qualification in 1975 in two weeks training + exam, at a cost of £95 (six times my then weekly wage as an unqualified instructor, with accommodation provided). My qualification, refreshed, would now (I understand) gain a BASI 2. Between then and now, ski instruction has been aided enormously by continuous advances in boots and skis. We should have far more instructors on mountains, teaching at reasonable prices, improving the skiing of far more people. There would be far fewer accidents and collisions.
Since 1975, the emperors of international ski instruction on their various national thrones have progressively upped the cost and complication of what should be an accessible profession for young people who don't necessarily have pots of cash. It's now a hugely costly and time-demanding qualification to obtain. Why?
Let's keep things sensible, on both the British and European front. It's getting very stupid when people end up in police stations for perfectly competently (perhaps brilliantly - Alex Casey had an impressive number of supporters outside that cop shop) teaching people to slide around on snow.
The slalom test always was absurd, and should have been nipped in the bud. It is totally irrelevant to teaching people to negotiate regular ski terrain.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gaza, Like all that British oil in the North sea. 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
teaching skiing - especially to bread-and-butter beginner-intermediate groups - is not the most testing profession. Most of the time it's a piece of pish.
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that's poo, any monkey can teach beginners, but it takes a lot of thought and skill to do it well, far more than intermediates !! The idea that instructing's easy and that better instructors should teach higher levels is the reason for shed loads of people giving up after the first week and why we have so many dogshite instructors in the UK..
on the original post, French are just doing what they've always done, and are trying to protect their own citizens first, don't think it's anything new
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| The slalom test always was absurd, and should have been nipped in the bud. It is totally irrelevant to teaching people to negotiate regular ski terrain. |
It is irrelevant to the teaching process but it is a good test of how good a skier someone is. Whether the Eurotest is too hard is open to question but I would suggest that anyone entering into the ski teaching profession should at least be able to complete a Special and GS to Gold standard without any problems.
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| Quote: |
I would suggest that anyone entering into the ski teachi ng profession should at least be able to complete a Special and GS to Gold standard without any problems.
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It's true thatracing might be the purest form of ski technique, but I think the Eurotest is a little much, some of the best instructors i know couldn't do it, freestyle instructors and if you're over 40 you can pretty much forget it... it should be a "good to have" not "must have"
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wait NO! not getting into a Eurotest debate here... lad was detained for 9 hours for teaching in France, back on topic!
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Ladies and Gentlemen and davidof, if I take lessons to fly a glider I don't expect my instructor to be able to fly a supersonic fighter jet. If I take driving lessons I don't necessarily want a Formula One racer to teach me. Believe me (I've done a bit of race training, but not in relation to BASI) ... skiing gates is wholly irrelevant in establishing someone's competence to teach snowplough, parallel, side-slipping, traverse, bumps, powder etc. Skiing gates is a very specialised discipline, and the techniques aren't used in recreational skiing (unless one wants to ski a piste like it's an imaginary slalom course). Race training is also singularly unenjoyable (in my experience!).
I think the Eurotest exists to maintain and perpetuate an elite. Organising a class - to maximise skiing time and practice and advancement - is far more important. And there's not enough focus on that.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Ladies and Gentlemen and davidof, if I take lessons to fly a glider I don't expect my instructor to be able to fly a supersonic fighter jet. |
You'd expect him to be able to fly and know how to get out of emergency situations though, same for your driving instructor. Both should be competent at their art. If some has pretensions to call themselves an expert skier a set of timed gates should be straightforward.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
a set of timed gates should be straightforward.
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You're right ski racing is easy... FIS 0 +18% eyes shut biatches!
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| Quote: |
| .................... easy... FIS 0 +18% eyes shut biatches! |
Easy peasy................... done it.
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You know it makes sense.
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Now there's this...............
"Conservative MP Damian Collins, whose constituency covers ski instructor Alex Casey’s UK home town, said he will be asking the Foreign Office to take the matter up with the French authorities, after the Briton spent 24 hours in custody on Tuesday.
It follows protests outside a French police station by angry Britons on a skiing holiday in the Alps, who were demonstrating against the arrest of their British instructor.
“This seems to be a massive overreaction from the French authorities, who are unfairly picking on British ski instructors like Alex Casey,” said Mr Collins."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/9973579/Megeve-protest-call-for-British-intervention-over-arrest-of-British-ski-instructor.html
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I teach and coach swimmers from beginner kids to regional standard club swimmers. Its acknowledged that the most challenging area to teach in is adult beginners. Swimming's not skiing, but its just as difficult to teach well, even without the added incentive of people drowning. I'm not sure there's any relationship between the ability to ski/swim really quickly and to teach someone else to do it properly and safely.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| Wait NO! not getting into a Eurotest debate here... lad was detained for 9 hours for videoing in France, back on topic! |
FIFY 
Can we also have a debate on whether posession of a video camera without a speed test is taking the wee wee, when French cameraman have clearly had it so much harder?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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What most ridiculous about all this, is: in none of the qualifying organizations have they ever tested or evaluated the skill of "teaching" itself.
Being able to ski well is one thing, being able to successfully transfer that skill to another person, small, medium, or larger is quite another. The French pro port a rather superior ski school, while in fact, based on results of measuring progress of ski students, they do absolutely nothing to measure the success of their students, nor can the prove they are more successful, therefore superior.
The true measure of success of teaching, is result that the student makes, not the result of the progress of the instructor. (same holds true for school teachers, by the way).
Given that so many of us had language barrier issues with ESF, this surely can be more closely correlated to success or lack thereof the said ski school customers...
Even if I place myself in the shoes of a Frenchman teaching skiing, I really don't get the point of this...this isn't economically prudent, or in the best interests of the ski resorts, or tax revenue generated by us foreigners...
I can only conclude, this is truly a culture, where one cuts his nose off to spite his face...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| fatbob wrote: |
| dulcamara wrote: |
| Wait NO! not getting into a Eurotest debate here... lad was detained for 9 hours for videoing in France, back on topic! |
FIFY
Can we also have a debate on whether posession of a video camera without a speed test is taking the wee wee, when French cameraman have clearly had it so much harder? |
Presumably, as a paid professional personal Go Pro, hehad authorization to film in a public place and has been declaring his monthly revenues from these activities to the French authorities. If not... oh dear...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| HeidiAmsterdam wrote: |
| nor can the prove they are more successful, therefore superior. |
Included in that, they cannot prove that they are more safe, which they so frequently assert. It has to be said BASI talk the same b*ll*cks in relation to the eurotest.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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HeidiAmsterdam, I suspect that deep down they know that by driving SBS out of town, his customers won't be flocking back to Megeve to sign up with the ESF or whoever, but that enough "influential" people don't like to see an incomer being more successful than them.
I heard from a Parisian ski instructor who now made his living as a naturalised US citizen it was the warm and rosy welcome he'd been given as a non-Savoyard way back in the day in his early career that had convinced him he should chance his arm in the land of the free. So I'm not sure it's just anti-British, just that some people like to be dicks.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| ............ just that some people like to be dicks. |
Comme nos amis Francais.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| [b] I heard from a Parisian ski instructor who now made his living as a naturalised US citizen it was the warm and rosy welcome he'd been given as a non-Savoyard way back in the day in his early career that had convinced him he should chance his arm in the land of the free. So I'm not sure it's just anti-British, just that some people like to be dicks. |
A Parisian instructor friend of ours had the same Savoyard welcome you mention, so I'm inclined to agree. He stuck it out. Sadly he died a few years back, but the send off he had from Les Gets proved how popular he had become.
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I thought those itineraries in Verbier were great.
The hot chocolate sucked, but hey-ho, I go to ski anyway, can bring my own whipped cream with coco and make my own...
Just sickened this all happened my beloved Megeve...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Any defence by Mr. Casey that he was 'just videoing' the clients would appear to be destroyed by the fact that his employer lists him as a ski 'instructor'. It would appear to be an established fact that he has taught skiing in Megeve for 10 years without having the qualifications required under French law. Raising the length of time that he has been doing it as a defence would be like telling the police officer "but I've been driving over the speed limit for years and haven't been caught or crashing so I should be allowed to get away with it, and all my passengers were happy with my driving"...nobody would expect that, and whether you agree with the speed limit is irrelevant.
Also the UK authorities do carry out simmilar checks in the UK in other professions. The Driving Standards Agency sometimes go out with police and check the qualifications of driving instructors, and those who are not legal are arrested regardless of nationality. There's a few driving instructors in my area who teach in Polish, catering for that community. If they are qualified under UK law then fine (and all the ones I have seen are), but if not then they should be arrested if caught. The length of time they have been teaching, or the views of their customers are irrelevant.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| Ladies and Gentlemen and davidof, if I take lessons to fly a glider I don't expect my instructor to be able to fly a supersonic fighter jet. |
You'd expect him to be able to fly and know how to get out of emergency situations though, same for your driving instructor. Both should be competent at their art. If some has pretensions to call themselves an expert skier a set of timed gates should be straightforward. |
In that case, some of the old guard should be made to do the test again. Agreed?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Both should be competent at their art. If some has pretensions to call themselves an expert skier a set of timed gates should be straightforward. |
Actually the Eurotest is too soft. Aspirants should be made to do an up & down ski off against davidof. We already know Lindsey Vonn is running scared so its fair to assume the barrier to entry would be kept suitably high.
Added bonus under this system is when kids fall over there should be no excuse for the lazy f**kers not to walk back up the hill to help them rather than relying on passers by to gather up their shizzle.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| simon_bates wrote: |
| It would appear to be an established fact that he has taught skiing in Megeve for 10 years without having the qualifications required under French law. |
AIUI, the current dispute is about the right (or otherwise) of SBS to employ BASI-qualified (but non-ITSD) instructors (such as Alex Casey) as part of the mix - not of Alex Casey to teach independently, which he has not been doing.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| We already know Lindsey Vonn is running scared. |
I'm fairly certain that right now the best she can manage is to hobble away scared.
(This thread keeps giving).
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You know it makes sense.
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Funnily enough I'm sat here thinking that once upon a time I was taught by a former World Class Ski Racer as were my parents, Heinz Von Allmen won I think 7 races on the Lauberhorn course in all 3 disciplines, and was a really good racer in his day, but he was also a damn good instructor, I only had him for a week one year when the instructor we should have had was ill, but my parents skied with him regularly, what makes a good instructor is the ability to pass on your skill and knowledge in a safe way to the people you teach, to have the patience to cope with those who cannot understand you, to know what peoples limits are and to be able to push them without breaking them.
But what truly made Heinz great was that when my mother broke her leg when the class was off piste (and long before helicopters were regularly used for rescues) he picked her up and carried her on his back (whilst on skis) to the nearest railway station. Most people have difficulty giving another adult a piggyback on foot imagine how hard it would be on skis, (despite teh break and torn ligaments mum made a full recovery and was out skiing the following year).
Simply being able to ski fast is not a measure of how good a teacher you will be, it's not even a measure of how good a skier you can be, I've seen plenty of fast skiers who looked to be barely in control of themselves let alone anyone else !
There is only one reason for the Eurotest, it's so that fast skiers can be sure of getting a job when their racing careers are over
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| marmotte16 wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
| [b] I heard from a Parisian ski instructor who now made his living as a naturalised US citizen it was the warm and rosy welcome he'd been given as a non-Savoyard way back in the day in his early career that had convinced him he should chance his arm in the land of the free. So I'm not sure it's just anti-British, just that some people like to be dicks. |
A Parisian instructor friend of ours had the same Savoyard welcome you mention, so I'm inclined to agree. He stuck it out. Sadly he died a few years back, but the send off he had from Les Gets proved how popular he had become. |
And then there's the Ski Cocktail story (which is worth a mention but not a repeat).
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Poster: A snowHead
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| PJSki wrote: |
In that case, some of the old guard should be made to do the test again. Agreed? |
I would expect any current ski instructor to be able to ski a GS and Special course fast. That is, at least "ESF" Gold standard. If you can't do that, you are not a good skier. End of.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I have no idea what a gold standard is, or how good you are davidof person but the speed test, at least in Tirol, is overly tough.
Pretty sure I would have to train to do it and I'm the best skier on this forum!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| davidof wrote: |
| PJSki wrote: |
In that case, some of the old guard should be made to do the test again. Agreed? |
I would expect any current ski instructor to be able to ski a GS and Special course fast. That is, at least "ESF" Gold standard. If you can't do that, you are not a good skier. End of. |
Ok, I suppose it all depends on your definition of 'good'.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| dulcamara wrote: |
| I have no idea what a gold standard is, |
It is a standard used by the ESF for pupil testing and adopted by Simon Butler Skiing for their pupils.
| dulcamara wrote: |
or how good you are davidof person |
what's that got to do with anything?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think it is 17% of an ESF instructor opener in a special slalom... around the entry point for the Test Technique level which is required to enter the french system.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Good is ALWAYS relative!
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Of course individuals can be criticised freely. Criticising your members' organisation in public is quite a different matter.
What was meant is: BASI is an organisation of several thousand members, and it doesn't do the individual member much good to criticise the organisation and any of its perceived failings in public. It should be done in private amongst other members to avoid damage to reputation.
BASI business (e.g. raising old accusations from days of yore) should remain private and there is a procedure for sorting out grievances.
On the other hand, Non BASI members shouldn't get involved at all in BASI business matters that shouldn't concern them.
I hope that puts the matter into proper perspective.
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We have an established right to publicly comment and opine on all sorts of organisations such as Governments, Churches (or equivalent), Charities, Tour Operators , etc. Why do you think BASI, of all things, should be above this?
There are many reasons to question/criticise an organisation in public. Perhaps where one 'grows too big for it's boots' and ignores/does nothing for the majority of it's members, instead working just for a small 'elite' percentage. Public pressure and open discussion is a very good way to avoid such things getting swept under the carpet (a la British Canoe Union).
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 6-04-13 7:58; edited 1 time in total
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surely if you want to work in a foreign country you need to follow the rules and regulations of that country. If you need a BASI 4 and a Eurotest to work here as a ski instructor and you choose to come and work here, then that is what you need.
If that instructor wasn't properly qualified, then he shouldn't be working in france
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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last time i checked France was part of the EU and they need to follow their rules and regulations as well.
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skimottaret, good luck wif that defense when you eventully get your collar felt for teaching in france
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