 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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While this is a bit of a hardy perennial of an old story, the seriousness of French engagement well correllated with how more or less horrible their economy is doing, maybe their particular intransigence this year is related to the whole Eurozone shambles?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I wonder to what extent other interests in French ski tourism support the ESF's stance on this?
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Popcorn 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's a stance I have never really understood, many years ago working in a small french village we asked the esf if it was ok to do a blue run day and then a red run day. Director said fine but leave the teaching to us, no problem. At the end of the season he took us out for food and drinks as we sent him so much extra business.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, I wonder too.
I first encountered this in 1990 when the ESF really was the only (con) game in town. As an aside, most people don't realise that they aren't the national ski school, just an organisation who have managed to dominate the market through clever franchising and marketing.
Anyway, I can't believe that the situation hasn't changed when any resort worth it's name has not only a bundle of "independent" French schools (no more or less independent than the ESF itself, although possibly with fewer brown envelopes passing around the couloirs of power) and not infrequently (shock, horror) ski schools of different nationalities!!
and as usual, what is the likely outcome? No big groups of holiday skiers are going to pay an ESF moniteur to show them around.
So no extra business, unhappy clients, who will ski somewhere, just not France.
This of course from a nation that has yet to discover customer service (I have had an irritating afternoon) and whose typical reaction to a reduction in custom is to raise prices.
Rant over.
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If customers keep accepting it and paying for it, then nothing will change.
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It would be interesting to know which H & S laws are being contravened. Given that the "perpetrators" are Brit companies, one might imagine they are a) aware of the "risk" and b) culpable if they do indeed break the law. So where are the legal cases for this apparent and obvious contravention of French law?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Stats are needed.
One side claims it gives skischool referrals. How many? How often? How much, net, in Euros?
The other side claims skiguiding is unsafe. What is the injury and death rate % for touroperator skiguides vs. skischool instructors?
Post answers below.
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Probably getting a bit uppity because there are now so many foreign Ski Schools on the French slopes who are legal, and they are getting a disproportionate slice of the referals from the ski guides.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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It's pointless as brits to negotiate directly with the ESF, they are past-masters at protectionism (just look at the "Eurotest" thread over in Bend Ze Knees!). TripAdvisor is the way to get things done these days, all the hotelliers are sh*t scared of it! If every Snowhead who went to a French resort last year found the accomodation they used on TripAdvisor and let their thoughts be known, we could get the French to do the job for us!
I knocked up a sample comment, and a franglais version to make it sound authentic (ok it's my best french  ) :-
"I had a great ski holiday in RESORT at HOTEL/APARTMENT/CHALET last year. Unfortunately I will not be returning this year since the ESF are forbidding tour operators from providing ski-guiding services to their clients (a service I find essential to a good holiday). I will be taking my family to Austria, Italy, or Switzerland, where the resorts welcome tour-operator ski-guides. If there is anything you can do change this situation (by explaining to your chamber of commerce, tourist office, or MP, that the ESF is damaging your business) I would be very pleased to stay with you again in the future. Many thanks NAME COUNTRY."
"J'ai eu des belles vacances de ski à RESORT au HOTEL/APARTMENT/CHALET l'année dernière. Malheureusement je ne reviendrai pas cette année puisque l'ESF interdisant les tour-opérateurs de fournir des services de "ski-guide" à leurs clients (un service que je trouve essentiel pour des bonnes vacances). Je vais prendre ma famille en Autriche, Italie, ou la Suisse où les stations accueillir les ski-guides des agences de voyage. S'il ya quelque chose que vous pouvez faire pour changer cette situation (en expliquant à votre chambre de commerce, office du tourisme, ou député, que l'ESF nuit à vos affaires), je serais très heureux de rester avec vous à l'avenir. Un grand merci NAME COUNTRY."
Do you think this has the makings of a viral campaign via Snowheads, UK ski press and TO's? It would be good to hear your thoughts 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Brilliant effort but don't use the 'guiding' word.
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Hang on. It’s France we’re talking about here, not the Home Counties. If the law in France says that you have a certain qualification do to something, then that’s it.
I actually don’t have a clue if it really is the law or just the EFS whinging like they normally do, but I’m fairly certain the judge hearing the case will do and will base their ruling based upon it.
A few points
Oh, I have never used a ski guide.
I have never personally seen one who was good enough to be guiding people around the slopes. I’m not saying they don’t exist, just that I have never seen one – but I have seen lots. A few of the one’s that I have seen were not too bad skiers (at a tourist level) but the majority were simply not very good at skiing.
* One of the BASI courses you have to do to get a badge is the Off-Piste module. Whilst this does cover skiing outside the pisted area it also covers a great deal avalanche work (theory and practical) with a written test after. Ski guides don’t have to do this.
* On the off-piste course there is an instant fail if you don’t prove (to a UIAGM mountain guide) that you can located a person under the snow (after an avalanche). If you don’t find them with 2 minutes, you have to do the whole course again, regardless of how many other sections you passed. Ski guides don’t have to do this. I won’t go into it, but you’ll just have to accept that you are tested on lots of other ski group safety issues as well.
* 2 weeks ago I spent a weekend in Glasgow. I had to as there was no first aid course in my area, so I had to pay out for hotels, transport, course fees, etc to refresh my first aid qualification. I have to do this every 3 years. Ski Guides don’t have to do this.
* 4 week ago I had to re-apply for a criminal records check to be able to work with children. I have to do this every 3 years. Ski Guides don’t have to do this.
* Last year I spent some time in Tignes get my instructor’s license refreshed by a BASI trainer (in case I’d forgotten how to ski or had just become ski guide standard). I have to do this every year. Ski guides don’t have to do this.
* To get my license I had to go on years and years of training and pass a gazillion courses (you have to pass every single one) at great cost in time, effort and financially. Ski guides don’t have to do this.
We all appreciate that if this case has been instigated by the ESF there is probably a reason ulterior to safety/ ski ability. But if the law in France says that you need to be qualified, then that’s the end of it, isn't it?
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Sat 17-11-12 8:04; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Good point Mike, Animateur would be a lot better. But in the cold light of day I realize Che Guevara I'm not! The french will continue to do things their way, and never let common sense get in the way of ill-perceived self-interest. It took me a long time to accept that the ESF (with collusion from some at the top of BASI) had robbed me of a teaching career, I'll be much happier not letting the guiding situation wind me up again either!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ha Ha Ha....
I love the arrogance of badly-informed stuck up Brits that they think its ok to tell the French what to do in their own country.
Why the hell would the French think its ok for an unqualified 18 year kid on his gap year to show visitors around their slopes?
Someone who perhaps....
- doesn't speak any French
- has no first aid qualification
- no ski leading or teaching qualifications
- no actual detailed knowledge of the local area (apart from the 3 weeks they have been in resort)
- no working with children / disclosure form's etc.
Would you leave your kids with an unqualified and unregistered tennis coach ?
Or perhaps pay to go out hillwalking with someone who *might* not have a clue ?
| Quote: |
| ... aren't the national ski school, just an organisation who have managed to dominate the market through clever franchising and marketing. |
Not really true... ESF is a national co-operative of ski instructors. Any young Frenchie who wants to become a ski instructor needs to work as a stagiere with them.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 17-11-12 10:39; edited 3 times in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
| It took me a long time to accept that the ESF (with collusion from some at the top of BASI) had robbed me of a teaching career |
Bull s-*t.
BASI L2 can be used in every other country across the globe.
You can even use it become a stagiere in France whilst training with the ESF.
The euro test is designed to limit the total number of qualified ski instructors - thus allowing people to make a career from ski teaching.
Right or wrong the French believe that ski teaching should be a full time career, not something you do for a few years in yours 20s.
If you removed the euro test then ski instructors in France would simply get paid circa £10/15 an hour like everywhere in the world.
It would be a less desirable place to work, and ski instructing would no longer be seen as a career option that could support a family / mortgage etc.
Maybe that would be a good thing - but its nothing to do with keeping Brits out (same rules for everyone!)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wayne, "They do not teach, do not go off piste or undertake difficult runs." They also only usually take adults or only take older kids with their parents. I don't need a first aid course to show my mates round a resort I know, which is the level of service being provided here - no need to pay an instructor or instructor rates for that. Wouldn't be surprised if some tour ops may even have ski hosts who've done first aid though.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| Wayne, "They do not teach, do not go off piste or undertake difficult runs." They also only usually take adults or only take older kids with their parents. I don't need a first aid course to show my mates round a resort I know, which is the level of service being provided here - no need to pay an instructor or instructor rates for that. Wouldn't be surprised if some tour ops may even have ski hosts who've done first aid though. |
^ the difference is that 'ski hosting' is for commercial gain by UK registered chalet companies.
The French have other (non ski instructor / ESF) qualifications for ski clubs and youth groups that take groups out on the mounains.
A bit like the SnowSport Scotland 'Ski Leader' or a summer ML we have in the UK.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=92409
| Quote: |
Article L212-1 En savoir plus sur cet article...
I.-Seuls peuvent, contre rémunération, enseigner, animer ou encadrer une activité physique ou sportive ou entraîner ses pratiquants, à titre d'occupation principale ou secondaire, de façon habituelle, saisonnière ou occasionnelle, sous réserve des dispositions du quatrième alinéa du présent article et de l'article L. 212-2 du présent code, les titulaires d'un diplôme, titre à finalité professionnelle ou certificat de qualification : |
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The couple of posters who support the ESF seem to have lost the plot. In principle ski hosting is no different to a group of mates showing each other around the slopes. If anything it is safer because the ski host won't let his testosterone "wander offpiste for a bit of bravado".
Ski hosting provides an essential service for skiiers like myself whose friends and family no longer ski. I'm a socialable type who likes to ski with a group, so the hosting is a great way of skiing with a group of like minded people especially if you travel with one of the singles holiday providers. Booking a week of guiding with ESF as the only option would be a joke.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Haggis_Trap, Hmmm, yes, no, yes, no, the ESF doesn't have the legal status (as far As I was told by the local director of an EsF franchise) that they claim. Sure, you do need to follow the rules to be a stagiere, but you do not need to do so with the ESF.
Any properly accredited school can do so.
PS given that Shep has worked (slightly off radar) for a very large ESF franchise for a number of years, albeit in the deep and murky mists of skiing history (sorry mate) I am going to suggest that your suggesting BS is off base.
Also, just how much of what you pay the EsF do you think ends up in the instructor's pockets? If you are a stagiere, it is far less than £10-15...
Just as an example lf French ski injstructor hypocrisy, a well known director of a much frequented resort by Brits confessed to me (under pressure of having to go ski some decent bumps) that he was entirely self taught (his skiing was rather agricultural) and that he had only reached his elevated position because no-one else wanted the job. Full diplome because he couldn't hold the position without it.
No, he couldn't ski bumps.
Wayne, the H&S claim is BS. All most accompagnateurs do is show people around the lift system. No instruction, no off piste.
And by the way, having spent 3 seasons doing it (in the dim and distant past) I assure you that I was (and still am) quite capable.
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I don't care about the ESF position but what the chalet company is doing would appear to be against the law and for me there is a question about whether their insurance cover is adequate in the event of an accident.
The TOs would be better served speaking to a French minister to get the law changed to allow ski leading in France by their employees.
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| slikedges wrote: |
| they do not go off piste. |
Yes they do
| slikedges wrote: |
| undertake difficult runs. |
Yes they do
| slikedges wrote: |
| They also only usually take adults |
And adults don't get avalanched?
| slikedges wrote: |
| Wouldn't be surprised if some tour ops may even have ski hosts who've done first aid though. |
Well that's OK then. You never know they may have a first aid cert, that may be current.
Let's face it, most ski guides are pretty crap at skiing, they are not required to have any formal qualifications, they have no formal training to an internationally recognised level, etc, etc. So why would anyone think that that allowing them to make decisions on your behalf is was safe way to enjoy a mountainous area during winter conditions.
| Posidrive wrote: |
| The couple of posters who support the ESF seem to have lost the plot. In principle ski hosting is no different to a group of mates showing each other around the slopes. |
| slikedges wrote: |
| I don't need a first aid course to show my mates round a resort I know, which is the level of service being provided here. |
There is a BIG difference here. You are not taking charge of the group, they do. They decide where to go, what to do, etc. So they ARE responsible (both morally and legally).
Note - I have no interest either way about the ESF. I have never worked for them, even though quite a few of my mates do and I am not supporting them. This is not the ESF v UK TO's. This is about the French insisting that anyone working in France is qualified to do so, to a standard that the French government has decided is required. Whether you agree with the laws in France is irrelevant.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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davidof, Yep.
In my last season, 90-91 we got round the problem by the reps not skiing in uniform and simply asking at breakfast who wanted to go skiing. That's all it was and as far as I am aware is.
Me skiing with my new friends.
And I am quite sure in some of my mates cases, if the gendarmes asked how good these friends were, well, he he he he, good enough to know of a latex allergy....
Also, the child safety aspect is somewhat of a red herring.
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Wayne,
You are missing the point.
And again, I know a number of people, myself included who are quite reasonable skiers and have been accompagnateurs.
Definitely capable of what the job entails.
This is an argument over the skiing equivalent of tour guides walking people around Edinburgh, or London, or Paris.
No more, no less.
Although the French probably require them to have certificates in Victor Hugo's dental problems.
"difficult slopes"?? WTF? What difficult slopes? If it's a piste, by definition it can't be that difficult.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^ Ha - How dare the French authorities expect that UK people working in their country are properly qualified, and registered, to do their job ? 
That Planet Ski article is terrible and stirs up anti Frenchie sentiment, such as that seen here, without presenting both sides of the case.
IMHO a more reasonable solution clearly would be some kind of formal 'ski leader' qualification. However at end of the day its their country to do as they please - if the French believe only a ski instructor can be paid to 'ski host' commerically then so be it.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Sat 17-11-12 10:35; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne, would you please clarify- all these hoops you have to jump thru - is this to be a qualified ski instructor? Where?
I am impressed and would seek your or members of your organization to guide me and my family
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Just to be devils advocate- this forum is full of complaints of ski groups stopping on awkward parts of slopes and we blame esf. But groups with guides can be very guilty of this, and this is a safety issue...
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You know it makes sense.
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I was recently offered a position as a Ski Host.
Which due to other circumstances had to turn down.
You did transfers on the weekends, helped out around the chalets and hosted on the slopes during the week, if the clients wanted it.
The job was just to know the pistes, where the restaurants were, recommend all the best places in resort and encourage clients to take lessons or guides for off piste skiing.
You are told at interview that you would on no occasion Instruct or go off piste.
The company's want people with Ski Instructor qualifications/standard or with vast amounts of skiing experience and knowledge of that resort.
Personally i can't see the problem with it.
It's like going to a resort you've never been too before and skiing with a friend who has. They know the resort and places to go...saves phaffing around with piste maps and gives you more time skiing.
The ESF aren't losing any business due to this ski hosting practice.
They are losing business because a lot of their Instructors are complacent and teaching standards have dropped imho. It's a lottery on getting a good Instructor.
When working in resort and recommending the ESF to clients, i received more complaints than compliments about the standard of teaching...especially with children.
As for the ESF flash bombing London wtf  ... I'd love to see BASI turn up in Paris and do that.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wayne wrote: |
There is a BIG difference here. You are not taking charge of the group, they do. They decide where to go, what to do, etc. So they ARE responsible (both morally and legally).
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Not sure that I agree with this. Whenever I have been hosted we have always been taken to slopes appropriate for the abilties of all memebers of the group. Whenever there has been a choice of runs at any point, we we genrally canavased as to which one we should take. They may have a moral stance not to take anyone into an area inappropriate for their ability, but I'm not so sure about the legal one because it is made perfectly clear at the outset to the guests what the service is. Very much like "buyer beware".
In principle I wouldn't have a problem with a basic certification of hosts at the beginning of the season. But along the lines of knowledge of the pistes, rather than avalanche training, first aid, etc. At least guests could then expect to be taken to all the best slopes which could never be a bad thing. For most resorts this could probably be done during the first couple of days of the season and shouldn't cost the tour operators much at all. I would even go as far as to say that this certification should be provided as a free service by the resort. This would have the added advantage of pissing off the ESF even more which is no bad thing 
On the facebook page discussing the article one poster did make a valid comment that some punters use the hosting instead of ski school. I will admit that in the days when I skiied with my family that I used to attend ski school just to have a group to ski with while my wife and son were in their classes. But in general it was quite a frrustrating experience because we tended to go to resorts not favoured by the Brits (German wife) and finding an appropriate level class with an English speaking instructor plus a few fellow Brits was never easy. Or more than one occasion the instructor asked my why I was in ski school.
I would have enjoyed the holiday much more if hosting had been availble.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Haggis_Trap, you make a lot of sense. Your post settles the argument for me
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| There must be some EU directive that prevents this... European Court of Human Rights cocnerning our right to ski with whoever we wish to |
^ Nope - doesnt matter if you disagree with the rules, because the French need to jump through exactly the same hoops.
(to become a full cert ski instructor it is potentially harder for the Frenchies - as unlike Brits they get limited attempts to pass the euro test)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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at what point did you need to be a ski instructor to be a ski host? there's some poo-poo being trotted out by wayne and haggis trap here, their comments - while directly relevant to the issue of qualifying as an instructor - don't seem to be at all relevant to the issue of showing punters around the pistes. On the occasions where I've used TO ski hosting they haven't even been allowed to use black pistes, never mind go off-piste
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm having a few friends stay at my place in Montalbert who have never been to the Paradiski area before, naturally I want to show them where the lift connections are the better restaurants the Vanoise Express and the best routes to get back down to Montalbert.
Do I have to pay an ESF instructor to come with us?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Wayne wrote: |
| slikedges wrote: |
| they do not go off piste. |
Yes they do - no they don't
| slikedges wrote: |
| undertake difficult runs. |
Yes they do - no they don't
| slikedges wrote: |
| They also only usually take adults |
And adults don't get avalanched? - no they don't, I mean, yes they do but adults don't need their ski hosts to be CRBed
| slikedges wrote: |
| Wouldn't be surprised if some tour ops may even have ski hosts who've done first aid though. |
Well that's OK then. You never know they may have a first aid cert, that may be current. - ok, ok, just for you - "Wouldn't be surprised if some tour ops may even have a policy of having ski hosts who've a current first aid though"
Let's face it, most ski guides are pretty crap at skiing, they are not required to have any formal qualifications, they have no formal training to an internationally recognised level, etc, etc. So why would anyone think that that allowing them to make decisions on your behalf is was safe way to enjoy a mountainous area during winter conditions.
- Because all they're doing is showing around. I've been shown round foreign inner cities by and gone on hill walks with acquaintances ill-equipped to protect me if a situation arose.
| Posidrive wrote: |
| The couple of posters who support the ESF seem to have lost the plot. In principle ski hosting is no different to a group of mates showing each other around the slopes. |
| slikedges wrote: |
| I don't need a first aid course to show my mates round a resort I know, which is the level of service being provided here. |
There is a BIG difference here. You are not taking charge of the group, they do. They decide where to go, what to do, etc. So they ARE responsible (both morally and legally). - actually if I take my mates around I could be considered to have taken on a legal duty of care, but in any case even if I had formal responsibility by virtue of a commercial arrangement it's far from clear whether I'd have to have any qualifications to host
Note - I have no interest either way about the ESF. I have never worked for them, even though quite a few of my mates do and I am not supporting them. This is not the ESF v UK TO's. This is about the French insisting that anyone working in France is qualified to do so, to a standard that the French government has decided is required. Whether you agree with the laws in France is irrelevant. - to be fair Wayne, you kind of do have a partial vested interest in increasing the range of work that can only be done by ski instructors (see below) |
Now if the French courts agreed according to current or altered legislation that some sort of qualification was necessary, but not making as ridiculous a demand as requiring a FEMPS cartel Moniteur National equivalence (can we agree on, say, minimum of BASI Level 2?) I'd switch sides on this immediately (my vested interest). You could say I'd do a turn on a Raxfin. 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Sat 17-11-12 10:58; edited 1 time in total
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Boredsurfing, exactly. If safety is the issue, you are equally at risk of being sued, or so it would appear at first sight, under French law.
(I am not a French lawyer. )
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| nbt wrote: |
| at what point did you need to be a ski instructor to be a ski host? there's some poo-poo being trotted out by wayne and haggis trap here, their comments - while directly relevant to the issue of qualifying as an instructor - don't seem to be at all relevant to the issue of showing punters around the pistes. On the occasions where I've used TO ski hosting they haven't even been allowed to use black pistes, never mind go off-piste |
Many TO's advertising for Ski hosts ask for their hosts to preferably have Ski Instructor qualifications or be highly experienced skiers. Even better if you have a knowledge of the resort.
Surely it's safer to have a host letting a newbie know a piste would be too difficult for them, than for them to struggle down on their own.
You see this so often in resort. Skiers attempting pistes far too difficult for them, creating havoc on the slope.
The ESF are just being back bottoms over this imho...
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| nbt wrote: |
| there's some poo-poo being trotted out by wayne and haggis trap here |
^ the only 'poo-poo' being talked here is the anti French sentiment stirred up by Planet Ski.
Which is uninfomed and arrogant, without considering both sides of the argument.
Already said that a more reasonable solution IMHO would be some kind of formal 'ski leader' qualification. However at end of the day its their country to do as they please - if the French believe only a ski instructor can be paid to 'ski host' commerically then so be it (same rules for every EU citizen working in France). Many of the arguements made seem to be confusing a genuine 'group of friends' with 'providing a commercial service'.
Even in the UK if someone wants to take a group of school kids / scouts / girl guides / corporate work party (etc) skiing up on Cairngorm then they should really have an SNSC Ski Leader qualification, or equivalent. Right or wrong, that is just the way of the world these days.
SNSC - Alpine Ski Leader Qualification.
http://www.clacksweb.org.uk/learning/alpineskileader/
http://www.interski.co.uk/asl.php
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sat 17-11-12 11:30; edited 9 times in total
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FAQ
we didn't really have an issue with this but there were quite a few tears from some in the group! the guide apologised for her mistake!
