Ski hosting/guiding/or whatever it is called now - recent article

A snowHead

Someone mentioned to me earlier today that they had seen an article recently in (perhaps???) The Daily Telegraph about the French kicking up a fuss again about GB companies offering the show-you-around-the-mountains-but-not-instruct-service.

Does anyone have a link???

A snowHead

http://www.e-tid.com/ski-operators-face-loss-of-guides-in-france/54034/

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I hope that never happens! The ski hosting is what makes my holidays, and without it I'd have to ski on my own on my French trips.

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Ah meeh, all smoke. Doubt anything will happen.. Ski hosting by GB operators has been banned in at least a few resorts, that I know of, but it still happens - just not "officially".

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Apart from not fancying a Chalet holiday in Huddersfield... (there's a business plan that should never have seen the light of day)

Usual pre-season tripe. Been seeing this on an annual basis since at least 1989...

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always been good to find your way round a new resort, would be a shame to see them go. Cool

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Back when I did it, we had to be qualified to be TO ski guides (mostly through BASI). Does that not happen any more?

After all it is free

Piccadilly, I happen to know that a certain member of this parish is going to be offering ski hosting independently in Switzerland this season, if that's of any interest

The french moaning?!

Never!

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I wonder if that will have any impact on the SCGB leaders

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Well they claim that since SCGB leaders are unpaid it doesn't affect them. Board and lodging is normally donated by the resort, I think.

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It will be the French prosecutor who brings the case. The ESF complain to the police or gendarmerie. If the gendarmerie think the complaint is justified they take evidence which they pass to the prosecutor. The ESF can be a civil party and may get some damages, say 5000 euros, if the case is proven.

We've been here before, well almost, with Bertie Barrett Boyce and company and it hasn't gone anywhere but an individual decision in a local court. For it to change the legal landscape it would have to be appealed at least right up to the French supreme court.

I imagine under French law that ski guiding, where the guide is attached to a business and receives remunerations, is illegal even where there is no instructional element because the guide is notionally leading his clients on piste.

This is the relevant text:

davidof,

My French isn't good, but doesn't that just say you can't do it if it is a part of your job unless you have a professional qualification?

You know it makes sense.

Yes that is what is says.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

queen bodecia, hah! Not even close. One of the reps couldn't ski at the beginning of the season I did as a rep...

A snowHead

Timmaah,

That prolly answers my next question then, the TO guides don't have any qualifications Toofy Grin

A snowHead

I wouldn't expect a T/O host to be qualified, except in First Aid. All I want is someone who looks a respectable skier and who knows the pistes and the watering holes and can make everyone feel happy.
Said person should have a degree of common sense on what the weakest member of the party can accomplish but I don't think quals are necessary even for that.
Capable and sensible will suffice for on-piste, I think. And I don't think we have been calling them"Guides" for years ---that would be asking for trouble, so Host has become a popular title.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Farley Goode, not qualified in first aid either. Most TO's, maybe MW excluded, give the reps an afternoon ski and teach them things to do and not to do whilst hosting/guiding. I had a group of around 8, 70-year olds with me one day the season before last when the snow was poor. Went the wrong way and took them down an extreme marked off piste route full of ice boulders... They enjoyed themselves though, especially when I stacked it on the end.

So it's a good thing you didn't have me guiding you Farley Wink

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From talking to guests that have taken part in ski hosting they've all enjoyed it and for some it's quite a big part of their holiday. Can't see it stopping companies just yet tho. Not supposed to ski host in St Anton but pretty much every company still does, they just do it 'unofficially', the hosts aren't in uniform and are skiing/boarding around with a 'group of friends'.

You'll probably find that a lot of TO ski hosts aren't first aid trained. During my training week for one TO (admittedly as a chalet host, not sure if the reps were told the same thing and it was about 5 years ago) we were told that if we were to witness or get involved in a an accident then we weren't to do any first aid, regardless as to whether we had training/qualifications or not, just to call the emergency services/piste rescue and wait for help. Quite a few of us were uncomfortable with this, if put in that situation I don't think I could sit back and do nothing and others felt the same.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Sitter, It's fine you'd just do the right thing as a human being and take the disciplinary consequences. Same as anyone.

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Last season I heard that after guiding was formally banned in one resort a TO continued to do it covertly. The Gendarmes then went as far as looking at the lift pass data from staff passes against the guests passes sold that week to the TO and inferring from that that guiding was still going on....

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Timmaah, Sad I wasn't with you as it's just the sort of thing I would enjoy. Almost my kind of company, too !!.

After all it is free

Swadster, I can quite imagine, but equally, when I hosted, the were quite a few chalet girls who'd have correlated very closel with guests ski passes, visa cards, etc.

I'm sure TOs will find a way round it - they'll just buy one two-week guest pass at a time for the staff to use when out hosting.

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I've never seen a local guiding service advertised that will show timid skiers how to get round a resort only using blues and greens and where to find a cheap lunch. Not sure who's job is risked by travel operator ski guiding, no one else is offering the service.
The travel operator reps are also the ones booking lessons and guides for their guests, acting effectively as agents for the ski schools/local guides. Talk about biting the hand that feeds.

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andyhull, TO's can make an arrangement with ski schools and probably will end up doing so.

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I have been on quite a few MW holidays. I must say the guiding service I have received is pretty damn good, they make it very clear that they are not instructors, cannot offer advice, cannot go off piste, etc. Basically all they are is someone who knows the mountain and can show you round without you having to get the piste map out every 5 minutes. Anything more than that, they will point you in the direction of a local guide or instructor.

You know it makes sense.

There is undoubtedly a demand for the service provided by "ski hosts / ski guides"; as the posts and the comments of the TOs who appear in the original article in the Daily Telegraph show. There is no doubt that for the client it can provide a "big part of their holiday".

However the fact remains that, like it or not, this service falls foul of French law (and this is not a new law but one that has existed for many years; the DT is simply wrong.) See Davidofs quote above.
TOs, and other individuals may not like the law but that is not about to change it.
There is case law (Court of Appeal Chambery 2003 that upheld the Albertville courts decision to convict a British TO and the ski host) for exactly what is currently being provided. It wasn't a huge fine but the precedent is there. Should there be an accident with a ski host / leader involved then the outcome is likely to involve substantial sums and / or prison. (Ref: 2 French ski instructors implicated in a death above Orelle in the 3 Valleys - suspend prison sentence and forbidden to instruct for 5 years; French qualified mountain leader imprisoned following avalanche death of members of his party).
The "arrests" / "checks" on the pistes are carried out by the French Sports Ministry officials with the support of the Gendarmerie / Police and are sometimes but not always as a result of a complaint by a ski school. I spent a couple of weeks working as part of the Courchevel ski patrol ("pisteur secouriste") and it's quite obvious what's happening to an "observer" who's aware or looking for what's going on.

In the DT article a TO states their intention to carry on with providing this service this winter. As a "visitor" to a foreign country, yes, even one in the EU, it would appear reasonable to respect the laws of the country.

My post is not as someone with a personal financial interest as I'm not a ski instructor or IFMGA guide (with relevant remit / "prerogatives"). It is simply to attempt to point out the facts from someone who is resident in France and a "mountain professional".

As they said in the Army, "if you can't do the time; don't do the crime".

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

I quite enjoyed the couple of times I've done it with Nielsen. Reps were a laugh and once the groups were split, the best "host" took the fastest group and so on. Seemed like it worked well. But I was in Italy, so not sure of the laws there..

A snowHead

Good to see UK based operators are ignoring this silly French attempt at protectionism and are continuing to offer a service which - although of no interest to me - is no doubt is good for W-A-Gs who can't read a piste map

Help!!

Ski hosting/guiding/or whatever it is called now - recent article

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