 Poster: A snowHead
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What sort of turns is the skier making in deep snow in the K2 clip Haggis_Trap posted (at the start and then again later on)? At first I thought he was skiing telemark. The outside ski seems to be way beyond the inside ski on the turn. Not anything I know. Is that the technique for powder?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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espri, he's skiing tele.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
Can you get very rockered skis into a gondola rack?
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I can barely get my slightly wide BD Verdicts in to some gondola racks, so for some gondolas the answer is certainly no, not as a pair. They might go in individually (which annoys other people as you take up twice as many slots), but even then if they are very wide that might not work so you may need to use the snowboard slots, but they are very precarious. Gondolas are just a PITA in my view, but hopefully operators will catch on and make improvements in due course.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| espri, he's skiing tele. |
That would explain it 
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Pedantica,
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Can you get very rockered skis into a gondola rack? Shocked
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yes but in the snowboard slots for them, they can also stick out a bit from the side of the gondola  I have ended up taking them inside with me, the lifties hate them I think, but hey what do they know, sorry to my lift friends in advance!!
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sah, it is a pain. Trouble is, if lift companies start making ski racks big enough for the fattest of rockered skis all other skis will slide around precariously. There should be a law that all skilifts should be covered chairlifts...
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rob@rar, are you the new Voiceofreason? Throughout the thread nothing but common sense and easy to understand logic, including your covered chairlift theory. Have a gold star, because I think I get what all this is about now.
So for my understanding, skiing a rockered ski on harder pistes is like skiing a slightly longer snowblade but without the fashion faux pas? And they give you a load of float in the soft stuff?
So why on earth did we all get obsessed with the longest skis on earth over the last couple of seasons, if everyone now agrees that a rockered ski is going to give you about 100cm of useful ski in the centre?
Out of interest, the right hand side pair of skis is going to chatter and flap around all over the place at speed isn't it?
And when I chuck my weight into a turn, isn't that the shape that the ski forms anyhow? Why have we all been obsessed with stiffer skis for higher speed and now we want skis that act like floppy skis in the turn?
I think I am taking an overly simplistic view of this, but I don't think I really get the whole rocker debate. It is basically a ski that is turned up a bit at the front and the back. That has some advantages off piste, but ultimately if you want a piste ski, buy a piste ski. If you want a one ski quiver, then I don't really see that a properly "rockered" ski is going to be top of the list just yet.
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^ watch the K2 clip - its a rockered piste ski (70-something mm under foot).
The girl seem to be carving perfectly to me.
Its a common misconception that rocker is only for massive powder skis that will be terrible on piste.
Ski choice depends on many factors... length, width, rocker (tip or tail), ski weight, ski flex (at tip and underfoot), torsional stiffness.
These can all be blended for different results and performance compromises.
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Monium, glad I'm making sense, or at the very least able to convey what I mean.
Haggis_Trap, yes, she's making nice turns. She looks a very skilled skier, although that's a very gentle piste with perfect groomed snow. I didn't say it was impossible to get decent turns out of rockered skis when on piste, just more difficult. In much the same way as it's possible to ski all sorts of off-piste snow on skinny skis, just more difficult. When I ski on fat skis on firm snow they make it more difficult to ski well and reinforce my bad habits. If I'm going to spend most or all of my time that day on piste where is the sense in being on skis which make it more difficult to ski well, at the danger of reinforcing my bad habits?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Monium, sort of and not really 
skis above on the left are rocker tip, and on the right rocker tip and tail.
Tip rocker only skis have a pretty long edge contact alot more than 100cm and as soon as you get them onto their edges on piste they use even more of the ski edge.
Tip and tail rocker and the above flyswatters are an extreme case of this, do the same thing, on their edges they ski longer, so not really like a snowblade, which are just short however you look at them.
Tip flap on some rocker skis can be a problem, but not as much as most people think, ski makers are putting carbon and other stuff in there to keep it to a minimum.
Tip flap on the flyswatters comes in at about 45 to 50 mph which is quite a bit faster than the majority of people ski on piste, tip flap on the Trusts above nope because they are a pretty stiff ski.
Monium, as you say if you want a piste ski and nothing else then yep get a piste ski, however there are many skis that offer some rocker that work just as well on piste as a piste ski does, a proper full rocker ski that skis on piste just as well as a piste ski, mmmmm well maybe the Whitedot Directors get close 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Rob@Rar
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| ... where is the sense in being on skis which make it more difficult to ski well, at the danger of reinforcing my bad habits? |
For sure - if you only ski on piste then buy a dedicated piste ski. This is a tool designed for one task. If you want a genuine all mountain / quiver of one / compromise (as you mention) then that ski is 90mm+ with some kind of subtle tip rocker. Seriously it will perform to a good standard in all snow conditions (piste, moguls, slush, crud, powder, ice). Of course you still need some skill to ski variable snow conditions - but it is much easier on modern equipment.
To dismiss what rocker can do is short sighted. When I first saw Pocket Rockets in Val DIsere (way back in 2001!) I laughed at people skiing with 2 snowboards on their feet. I was wrong
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| If you want a genuine all mountain / quiver of one / compromise (as you mention) then that ski is 90mm+ with some kind of subtle tip rocker. |
My guess is that people will have different definitions of "all mountain". If you ski anything in all snow conditions, with a clear bias towards off-piste so the time you spend on piste is mostly 'functional' (ie, simply using the piste to get to the next bit of off-piste) then I would agree with you in your recommendation. However, if your all-mountain skiing is perhaps 80% on piste and your off-piste skiing depends on how nice the snow is then I'd say something closer to 80mm is going to be better suited to the majority of your ski time, and maybe rent a powder specialist pair of skis for a day or two if the snowgods give you the kind of day we all hope for.
I'm not dismissing what a rocker can do. I think the innovations in ski geometry in recent years is a great thing and can definitely help us have more fun in certain situations. But for the life of me I can't see what benefit there is when skiing on piste in making it more difficult to engage the front of the ski. I'm happy to accept the compromise if I'm not spending a lot of time on piste because the advantages elsewhere more than make up for it. The more 'niche' a ski is, whether that's a full blown race ski or something like the Spoon, the bigger that compromise will be when the ski is being used outside of the environment it was designed for.
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, stop now. We're going to start agreeing, and I disapprove of agreeing with people on internet forums.
For piste skiing, the reccomendation is to get a piste ski. For 80% piste with a bit of offpiste, get something that is good for the piste but is a bit wider, for lots of offpiste get two pairs of skis.
Isn't that the reality of what we'd all do pretty much anyway? For 99% of skiiers a one ski quiver is never going to be a 110mm rockered ski (or at least I wouldn't expect it to be) because most skiiers don't venture off piste at all, and those that do most tend to play around the edges of the piste. The number of actual offpiste skiiers is relatively small, and of those the number that really need more than 85mm underfoot to do it is even smaller.
A one ski quiver for someone that spends 90% of their time off piste is a different proposition entirely, and a fairly limited market IMO.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Monium, my humble apologies, but I'm going to have to agree with that post 100%. I shall now head to the bottom of my garden to whip myself with Birch twigs as repentance for the temerity of agreeing with someone on the internet.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Rob@Rar .... for 2012 almost every 80mm punter piste ski has some kind of tip rocker / early rise.
Dynastar, K2, Rossi, Salomon, Scott etc have all jumped on the bandwagon.
The effect is subtle, but even on piste it does makes them easier to use.
Dont forget pistes are rarely uniform, hardpacked or perfectly prepared - especially at end of a spring day.
http://global.skipass.com/gearguide/ski/
Offpisteskiing commented on this rocker trend earlier...
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| ...if rocker is defined as the forward part of the ski rising up from the snow then skis have had rocker since time began |
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Wed 12-10-11 13:19; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| The effect is subtle, but even on piste it does makes them easier to use. |
Can you explain how? That's not a facetious question, BTW, I'm genuinely puzzled about this.
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Primarily turn initiation becomes easier - especially at lower speeds.
For intermediate skiers this is a good thing ?
My main experience of a rockered ski is the K2 Sidestash.
Despite being 108mm under foot its much better on hard snow than the old 102mm Coomba.
It took me about a week to work out why - as on hard piste the effect rocker has is very subtle.
(also - its fairly well known that the rockered 2009-11 Coomback is better on hard snow than unrockered 2008 Coomba).
It will be very interesting to see how the rocker trend translates to 80mm skis.
But every single ski manufacturer has jumped on the bandwagon for all mountain skis.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="rob@rar"]
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| However, if your all-mountain skiing is perhaps 80% on piste and your off-piste skiing depends on how nice the snow is then I'd say something closer to 80mm is going to be better suited to the majority of your ski time. |
For sure, but people in that position shouldn't kid themselves that they're 'all-mountain' skiers, and just be honest that really all they need is a piste ski.
For someone who actually does ski all the mountain - ie 20% powder/20% piste/20% bumps/ 20% crud and crust/ 20% slush and corn, then 90-100mmish is more appropriate.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Primarily turn initiation becomes easier - especially at lower speeds.
For intermediate skiers this is a good thing ? |
Sorry, but this doesn't make sense to me. If you want to twist your skis easily then I suppose getting the edges at the front of the ski further away from the snow might have some advantage. But if you're looking to use the shape of the ski to have more influence on the turn you make surely it is better for the front of the ski to be well engaged with the snow, and as early as possible in the turn?
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 12-10-11 13:44; edited 1 time in total
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| clarky999 wrote: |
| For sure, but people in that position shouldn't kid themselves that they're 'all-mountain' skiers, and just be honest that really all they need is a piste ski. |
Agreed, and my advice here and on the rare occasion that people ask me about ski choices that's exactly what I say. Be honest with yourself about what you actually ski, and what you realistically aspire to. Then choose a ski which is the best compromise for what you do. In an ideal world a two ski quiver wouldn't be prohibitively expensive or too much hassle to carry on your ski trips. But if you are restricted to one pair of skis it is always going to be a compromise if you ski in a mix of conditions. To me it just seems sensible to minimise the compromises you are going to have to make rather than choosing a ski which is designed for a particular environment if you don't spend a lot of time skiing in those conditions.
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^ Rob@rar during any turn skiers need to change from one set of edges onto the other.
Whilst not the primary purpose there is no doubt that early rise stops the ski tips from catching (especially at slower speeds).
Ski design is about compromise and blending elements - such as sidecut, flex & rocker.
When fatter skis and sidecut originally came out it took awhile for the technology to evolve.
... and also for people to appreciate what it could, and could not, do for them.
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| ... a compromise if you ski in a mix of conditions |
Rocker implemented properly makes your skis more versatile for a mix of conditions.
i.e 74mm wide Rossignol ski, with tip rocker for intermediates. http://global.skipass.com/gearguide/rossignol/alias-74-ltd-tpi2.html
Every main stream ski manufacturer (Dynastar, K2, Salomon, Scott etc) all have similar skis in their 2012 line up.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Wed 12-10-11 14:06; edited 2 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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barry,
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wtf do you do with the 202 super turbos?
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we stuck those in the snowboard slots, when we were testing them in Les Acrs the funny things was that all the lifties instructors and guides just wanted to look at them all the time, so was a major pain just getting on every lift let alone the gondola.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Rob@rar during any turn skiers need to change from one set of edges onto the other.
Whilst not the primary purpose there is no doubt that early rise stops the ski tips from catching (especially at slower speeds). |
How many people have problems with tips catching? I don't think I've ever seen that happen. On the other hand, how many people get their skis to grip before the fall line when they're doing short radius turns? I'd say very few. How many people cleanly roll from edge to edge and get the ski gripping immediately in long radius turns. I'd say very few. Skiing a rockered ski on piste to ensure you don't catch the tip sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, IMO.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
| Rob@Rar...solution to a problem that doesn\\\'t exist |
^ That is exactly people said about carvers and fat ski when they first came out
Lets not forget the main benefit of rocker is clearly to stop tip dive - but that is not the only one.
In the alps pistes can get very slushy and heavy in spring time? Ideal conditions for a little rocker ?
Will be interesting to see where it evolves ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ Rob@rar during any turn skiers need to change from one set of edges onto the other.
Whilst not the primary purpose there is no doubt that early rise stops the ski tips from catching (especially at slower speeds). |
How many people have problems with tips catching? I don't think I've ever seen that happen. On the other hand, how many people get their skis to grip before the fall line when they're doing short radius turns? I'd say very few. How many people cleanly roll from edge to edge and get the ski gripping immediately in long radius turns. I'd say very few. Skiing a rockered ski on piste to ensure you don't catch the tip sounds like a solution to a problem that doesn't exist, IMO. |
Catching an edge tends to be at the front in my experience - I can easily recover from an edge catching at the back, it is when it catches on the front "corner" that it really throws me. So rocker skis make that a bit less likely, that makes sense, it is not the tip that is catching, it is the side edge at the front end of the ski. It is where I catch them when I am tired or being lazy. I wouldn't trade performance in another area to get less edge catching at the front, because it happens very rarely to me or others, and never happens when I am turning or heading down the fall line on steeper slopes (where falls really matter to me) it is just when on flatter terrain.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Ideal conditions for a little rocker ? |
All skis turn up at the front, isn't that enough to deal with any loose snow on top of a firm base?
It will be interesting to see how rockers develop, and as you say, they are designed to reduce tip dive when you are skiing in/on 3D snow and in that context I think they're a great idea. But I'm not convinced that a ski which rises away from the snow any more than a traditional ski tip is necessary or desirable on firm snow.
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You know it makes sense.
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two things which above make sense to me
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For someone who actually does ski all the mountain - ie 20% powder/20% piste/20% bumps/ 20% crud and crust/ 20% slush and corn, then 90-100mmish is more appropriate.
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and
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Ski design is about compromise and blending elements - such as sidecut, flex & rocker.
When fatter skis and sidecut originally came out it took a while for the technology to evolve.
... and also for people to appreciate what it could, and could not, do for them.
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As some of you know I ski my Movment Source 94mm with early rise tip for my everyday ski when on the mountain, I do not class this as a rocker ski its just got a subtle early rise wide tip which works across everything, very well. Its a compromise yes but many skis in this catergory do everything very well.
Ski design in the last couple of seasons has given us a much bigger choice of skis that ski really well, the tip design has been a critical part of this, especially when it comes to the width and taper, some skis are almost at their widest on the flat section of tip before the rocker kicks in therefore allowing as Rob says above
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surely it is better for the front of the ski to be well engaged with the snow, and as early as possible in the turn?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I've not tried a rockered ski yet but how is it better in crud? Surely you want to smash through it not rise over it. And what about real breakable crust?
Initiation of turn is no problem in any soft snow anyway.
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Poster: A snowHead
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snowball, you never bury a tip in crud which is a good thing IMO. busting through crud is one technique but staying on top of it is another which works OK for me
again, the tips don't sink in breakable crust so you really don't need to adjust your technique very much to deal with it. my dislike of breakable crust was deeply ingrained so this has taken a while, but i don't really think too much about it now
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
And what about real breakable crust?
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Much easier. Tip dive/hooking issues are reduced. Still doesn't make it fun, though. Key point regarding ungroomed snow is that you can ski something stiff without having to deal with tip dive.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| snowball wrote: |
I've not tried a rockered ski yet but how is it better in crud? Surely you want to smash through it not rise over it. And what about real breakable crust?
Initiation of turn is no problem in any soft snow anyway. |
It gives me the confidence to keep driving the tip (through or over) without worrying about it going under (which also means you can get away with a stiffer tip without the tip-dive usually associated with that), but also seems to just iron things out so you can glide over the top with very little effort, if that's your style.
You don't get that nasty hooking/getting 'locked in' feeling with breakable crust.
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rob@rar, i got rid of my jimi`s after I had ago of some s7`s now on jj`s,the jimi`s were pretty rubbish ski`s imo they are just dead planks the rocker is hardly worth having as it is so small so the benifits on piste really dont make a difference its such a tiring ski to ski on piste.S7`s and jj`s are way better on piste as the rocker is much more prenounced and there is camber under foot aswell so they are totally different beasts the head`s are great in chopped up snow great for heavy snow like Whistler and straightlinning stuff but they dont like turning however good you are but the s7/jj are a total blast anywhere all the time for me and i think the 14/16 m turn radius is about right if you know how to ski them.i was talking to mr Tomlinsons dad today and and we both reckon its one of the best skis out there for having fun on and performing everywhere JMO.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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meandrew, I think that's one of the most amazing ski films I've ever seen. Thanks for posting. Just awesome.
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Pedantica, the head jimi was designed by Mr james (jimi)Heim for what he does and i dont think he spend much time on piste worrying about turn radius`s
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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meandrew, so you're saying that for a rocker to have an impact when skiing on firm snow it's got to be pronounced, yet Haggis_Trap declares the virtues of a subtle tip rocker. Have to confess I'm not being persuaded...
Thans for the ski porn. Very nice.
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rob@rar, Im of tread point really,does rocker have a point on piste ski`s probably not but it will sell loads of skis to the average skier who will talk crap about it for ages not knowing what he`s going on about ,sound familiar 
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FAQ
