what do you think of the rocker skis,can see where there usefull on an all mountain ski but what about on a piste ski, i tried a few in the fridge and not sure, not the best place to test was wondering what everybody else thinks.
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figg4, there have been a number of threads recently about rockered skis and their suitability for piste skiing. A quick search will reveal a wide range of opinions.
I'm not experienced enough to give you solid advice. I can only say that I have tried rockered skis on piste and they were just fine.
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Quote:
rocker on a piste ski
Something not often mentioned on Snowheads.
Rocker is not just for powder
To cut a long story short - I was really sceptical - surely rocker reduces the edge length and makes the hard snow performance worse ? Happy to put my hand up and say that I was totally wrong. K2 have totally nailled the concept of subtle tip rocker for all conditions (even if its not cool to big up mainstream ski companys on ski forums).
I know its marketing blurb - but this link is worth a read...
In case you hadnt guessed I am sold.
I'm fully convinced on rocker for all mountain skis and the majority of (maybe all) offpiste conditions, but I really can't understand how it's beneficial on a piste ski (not that I've tried any of them)?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
even on a piste ski?
Rocker performance on hard snow is something most people dont understand.
Like youself I was really sceptical... Surely it makes the hard snow performance worse ?
Well no.
When most people think of rocker they think of big powder skis like Pontoons or S7s. However the rocker can be much more subtle - and only actually engaged when the ski is flexed. Critical to this is getting the tip flex correct in relation to stiffness under foot flex (K2 have nailed it). If done properly 'all mountain rocker' makes the turn much intiation faster, and also transfers more pressure to the section of edge directly under your foot when you weight the ski. It really does improve hard snow performance in a subtle way.
Haggis_Trap, love the post, and the little K2 promo video.
The whole question of rocker is one which is slowly beginning to be "got" by all mountain skiers especially when it comes to piste skiing ability.
figg4
Some fatter skis have just tip rocker others have tip and tail rocker and then there is the shape underfoot, again some have rocker and other rocker skis are not rockered under foot but maybe almost flat or have some traditional camber.
I really good example is the Movment Flyswatter, 150 x 125 x 145 in a 185cm this is, I think, a good ski to look at as it is even more extreme in shape than many main line brands like K2.
They have a pretty extreme rocker in the tip and tail but are not rockered underfoot. Me and my lad have spent a lot of time on these skis both on piste and off piste and they work really well across the whole mountain. Funny enough my little Snowshepherd only "got" it yesterday about piste skiing on these types of skis, after spending 3 hours on them at the snowdome in MK, maybe it was cos I wasn't with him and he played around even more than normal. His words to me was wow "I never realised that they could work like that" (for those of you who have seen him ski, you will understand!!)
These types of skis work around their profile, and angulation on piste, the more extreme your angulation the more of the ski comes into contact with the snow and therefore provides the ski with different abilities than on non rockered ski, it is possible to almost ski with your shoulders on the snow during a turn on piste in good snow, something which is only in the dreams of many a skier but with this type of ski makes it much more possible, but not easy I hasen to add.
We all know that off piste, rocker skis rock but until you ski them on piste or see someone who can ski them on piste very well few of us "get" it.
Proper rocker skis do take time to get used too, but if you stick with them they can give you a huge amount of fun.
My plan for the coming season is to try and get some close up video footage of rocker skis on piste to show what is going on in the turn, hopefully this will explain a little more what happens to the shape of the ski and how this impacts on what they can do.
The other thing that I think is worth saying is that some brands will say they have a rocker ski, but in reality this is just a slightly raised tip or early tip rise, in my book this is not rocker. OK back to work
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Haggis_Trap, cheers.
The rocker on my Bibby Pro's for sure makes them more manageable for such a big ski on piste (normal camber underfoot) - where they are actually more nimble than my much smaller Big Troubles, and I like it on hard snow offpiste too, but I still don't get why I wouldn't want the tip to bite as far forwards as possible on a pure piste ski.
I kindof understand the angulation and flexing bringing the rocker into play...
Hang on...
I guess with some mild rocker, with the contact zone a little further back, initiation can happen sooner at slower speeds for small turns... yet when you get the ski on edge at higher speeds you get more contact length and stability for bigger faster turns... so in one ski you can get two different but equally 'catered/designed for/can't think of the words lol' turning radii and styles...?
Ramble over... Guess I'll have to try them!
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After all it is free
I have a small tip rise/rocker on my fat skis (Head Jimis) and I found that when on piste I really needed to exaggerate the forward pressure if I wanted to get any early grip in the turn. Really felt as if I was leaning on the front of the boots rather than standing centred on the ski, and it took more effort than with other skis to make a decent turn. Eventually worked out that pushing my feet out to the side and banging 'em on their edges was the easiest way to get them to turn, even if it wasn't the most elegant solution.
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rob@rar,
Quote:
banging 'em on their edges was the easiest way to get them to turn, even if it wasn't the most elegant solution.
love it Rob, how about the other way round bang on the edge first then push out
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livetoski wrote:
rob@rar,
Quote:
banging 'em on their edges was the easiest way to get them to turn, even if it wasn't the most elegant solution.
love it Rob, how about the other way round bang on the edge first then push out
If a ski is on its edge how can you push it out? Doesn't it want to grip firm snow?
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rob@rar,
Quote:
a ski is on its edge how can you push it out? Doesn't it want to grip firm snow?
wrong turn of phrase, more weight into the turn when the ski is on its edge or drive into the turn, is what I meant, keeping the edge gripping and carving with acceleration out of the turn.
You know I just point and go, never was much good at all this description stuff, I leave that up to the experts like you and Scott
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
The concept of rocker is still very much evolving...
Some companies have nailed it better than others.
The main advantage of rocker, that everyone understands is
1. the ski tips never sink.
However look at the K2 video (freeze frame at 15 secs).
With subtle all mountain rocker the ski tips only turn upwards when the ski is weighted.
Note - This is very different to a Pontoon / S7 / Flyswatter type of powder rocker.
This more subtle variant of tip rocker has 2 advantages on hard snow
2. Turn initiation becomes easier. 3. The effective edge length is reduced (and can also be varied for different turn shapes) resulting in more pressure being applied to section of edge under the boot.
Rocker is not just for powder - seriously!
I used to be skeptical too
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Tue 11-10-11 16:02; edited 2 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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livetoski wrote:
rob@rar,
Quote:
a ski is on its edge how can you push it out? Doesn't it want to grip firm snow?
wrong turn of phrase, more weight into the turn when the ski is on its edge or drive into the turn, is what I meant, keeping the edge gripping and carving with acceleration out of the turn.
You know I just point and go, never was much good at all this description stuff, I leave that up to the experts like you and Scott
Ah, OK I think I understand. Yes, if you get more weight/pressure on the front of the ski it will grip. It's just that when I did that I felt unbalanced and really needed to dive in to the turn to make it work.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Haggis_Trap wrote:
The main advantage of rocker, that everyone understands is
1. the ski tips never sink.
Agreed, and a huge advantage in all sorts of snow conditions, from perfect powder, to chopped up crud, nasty crust, etc.
Quote:
However look at the K2 video (freeze frame at 15 secs).
With subtle all mountain rocker the ski tips only turn upwards when the ski is weighted.
Note - This is very different to a Pontoon / S7 / Flyswatter type of powder rocker.
This more subtle variant of rocker has 2 advantages applicable to hard snow
2. Turn initiation becomes easier.
How? I have to say with the subtle rocker I have on my fat skis I found the opposite, turn initiation became a more complicated affair when on firm snow.
Quote:
3. The effective edge length is reduced (and can also be varied for different turn shapes) resulting in more pressure being applied to section of edge under the boot.
Can't the same be said for short skis or even blades?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Quote:
I have a small tip rise/rocker on my fat skis (Head Jimis) and I found that when on piste I really needed to exaggerate the forward pressure if I wanted to get any early grip in the turn.
I think this is a "where is the widest point on the ski and how far is it off the deck?" question. The difference between the performance of one of my pairs of rockered skis (35m radius) in 1cm of soft snow vs hardpack is enormous - largely as on hardpack what little shape they have in the shovel is off the snow most of the time and I am working with a ski that is, basically, straight(ish). On hardpack they require a lot of forward pressure in order to engage the tip. From memory the Jimi has a radius in the 30m range so it would not be a massive surprise if something similar was going on.
With my JJs, on the other hand, the hard pack performance is better than that of my Scott Missions, largely owing to a slalom sidecut, underfoot stiffness and the factors outlined by Haggis Trap above. Obviously I didn't buy them to ski pistes - just that their on piste performance is a pleasant bonus.
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gorilla, 32m radius for the Head Jimis IIRC. I've only tried the JJs indoors which isn't really a proper place to test them but the quoted turn radius of 12m (?) was used to persuade me that they turn just like a slalom ski. Maybe they do in the hands of a more skilled skier than I am, but my conclusion was that they didn't turn anything like any 12m slalom ski that I've been on.
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Rob - the JJ is very much a powder / big mountain ski that can handle piste if required.
There are much more subtle flavors of rocker.
For example a rockered piste ski for beginners !?
http://k2skis.com/skis/all-mountain/force
Its worth watching the K2 video a few times.
Like yourself I was dubious if rocker could improve hard snow performance (however I was wrong).
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Haggis_Trap wrote:
Rob - the JJ is very much a powder / big mountain ski that can handle piste if required.
That was my conclusion as well!
Quote:
Like yourself I was dubious if rocker could improve hard snow performance (however I was wrong).
I think we have reached a different conclusion, although my experience is limited to a very small sample of fat skis so I fully accept I might not have been on the right ski to reach the same conclusion as you. However, I can't even get my head around the theory of why a rocker might help you get good, never mind better, performance when on piste when compared to a ski which is designed to be used on firm snow.
[devil's advocate]
Haggis_Trap, so if skis with subtle rocker improve hard snow performance compared to skis with big mountain/powder rocker (ie a lot)..... then the logical extension of that is skis with even less rocker will give even better hard snow performance...
(yes I do own skis with rocker..)
It seems to me that if 'rocker' is defined as the forward part of the ski rising up from the snow then skis have had 'rocker' since time began, it just wasn't Rocker [sup]TM[/sup] back then...
[/devil's advocate]
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
^ Ha.
IMHO rocker technology is still very much evolving (like fat skis were in 2004).
Though I do think tip rocker makes turn initiation easier on big skis.
Cant see the point of tail rocker though...
Quote:
if 'rocker' is defined as the forward part of the ski rising up from the snow then skis have had 'rocker' since time began, it just wasn't Rocker
Indeed!
Rocker is really just marketing lingo for moving the contact point further back and creating a tip shovel.
The real question is how stiff the ski tip should be.
For example the tip rise / rocker on a K2 (Sidestash / Hardside / Coomback) only becomes obvious when you physically press the skis together.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Tue 11-10-11 17:01; edited 4 times in total
my conclusion was that they didn't turn anything like any 12m slalom ski that I've been on.
That'll be because they are 115mm underfoot and have tip/tail rocker . They are not a piste ski, they just do better there than might reasonably be expected - its a bonus and nothing more than that.
I mentioned them as I suspect they explain why the Jimis are a bit of a fight. As you edge the JJs you bring more of the ski into contact with the piste, owing to the tight sidecut and the rocker profile of the tip/tail. I suspect this is much harder to achieve with the Jimi.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
gorilla wrote:
That'll be because they are 115mm underfoot and have tip/tail rocker . They are not a piste ski, they just do better there than might reasonably be expected - its a bonus and nothing more than that.
I agree fully, and as a bonus and nothing more than that I thought they were pretty clever. But sometimes reading about skis on snowHeads it appears to the casual reader that there is no downside to skiing fat skis on firm snow: you get all their advantages when off-piste, and no discernible disadvantage when on piste. You can carve 'em, longs, shorts, whatever. That's not my experience as a skier, or as an instructor. So for the skier who is restricted to a one ski quiver I'm simply trying to put a different perspective to help people decide what's best for them.
After all it is free
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I will try and post up some pics later, having trouble loading them.
Haggis_Trap,
Quote:
Cant see the point of tail rocker.
switch skiing, landing jumps, less grab off piste, skidded or surf style truns you want me to go on
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Quote:
So for the skier who is restricted to a one ski quiver
Depends if you want a dedicated piste ski or a genuine all mountain ski ?
IMHO the ideal 1 ski quiver for the alps is 90-105mm with a subtle tip rocker and flat tails ?
Twin tips are fun in the park - but hook up badly in deep snow.
Similarly Tail Rocker is pointless unless you aspire to copy the pro skiers and land switch in powder.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 11-10-11 17:14; edited 1 time in total
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Depends if you want a dedicated piste ski or a genuine all mountain ski ?
Which presumably depends on where you spend most of your time skiing? If you spend a fair proportion of your time on-piste and only venture off-piste when it has recently snowed maybe a ski which was a bit more of an all-round compromise would be a better option? I'm not against fat skis (I own some) and my only argument is to choose the best ski for the terrain that you mostly ski on. If you mostly ski on piste I don't think a fat, rockered ski makes a lot of sense.
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Haggis_Trap wrote:
Similarly Tail Rocker is pointless unless you aspire to copy the pro skiers and land switch in powder.
really?? What about allowing the ski to smear and pivot easier, for the slashing surfer turns off piste???
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Depends if you want a dedicated piste ski or a genuine all mountain ski ?
IMHO the ideal 1 ski quiver for the alps is 90-105mm with a subtle tip rocker and flat tails ?
Twin tips are fun in the park - but hook up badly in deep snow.
Similarly Tail Rocker is pointless unless you aspire to copy the pro skiers and land switch in powder.
Whilst I agree with you that tail rocker is excessive unless you want to ski switch (which in powder is a lot of fun, and easier than you might think), twintips do not 'hook up badly' in deep snow, skis with excessive sidecut do. The twintips I ski in powder (Volkl Chopsticks and Gotamas), both have turn radiuses (radii?) in the 30m range and I have never had problems with them, and I ski a lot of powder (winters in Japan, summers in Chile). The gotama was a one ski quiver for me this year in Chile for a while, and worked suprisingly well in all conditions, they have modest full reverse camber, more in the tip than the tail. A bit soft at times, but otherwise excellent, just because skis have a twintip, doesn't mean they are bad going forwards.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
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Quote:
twintips do not 'hook up badly' in deep snow
Its well known twin tip skis hook up in deep snow - snow builds up against the twin tip making release of the turn hooky. Its a subtle effect - but skis with flat tails (i.e goliath, sidestash, katana, xxl) will always release from deep snow turns more smoothly.
FWIW - Gotama is a great ski.
Really enjoyed the one run I have had on them.
Never seen a real need for tail rocker - but then again I dont get to ski v.deep powder as much as I would like.
As ever - each to their own
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Haggis_Trap, mmmmmmmmmmm
Quote:
Its well known twin tip skis hook up in deep snow
maybe on older style twin tips, but not the newer rocker style twin tips and full rocker skis, the tips are not the widest point if the ski, the makers have learnt from this and made the tips taper down therefore avoiding this grab and build up factor. OK photo time I hope lol
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
snow building up above the twin tip is a slighlty different effect to a hooky tip caused by the widest part of the ski being the contact point (as you correctly describe).
like I said - each to their own.
IMVHO tail rocker is not essential - and also a very different feeling to tip rocker ?
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 11-10-11 21:09; edited 1 time in total
Poster: A snowHead
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OK two skis one with tip rocker only and the other with extreme tip and tail rocker, both skis in natural position stood in the same plain one is 186 and the other is 185? both skis positive camber underfoot, one is 8mm and the other is 1.5cm
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the same skis in sidecut profile, stood in the same plain, Trust yellow is 141x108x129 R21 Flyswatter is 150x125x145 R17
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
tha same skis pressed flat in the same plane!!!!
The trust is stiffer than the flyswatter, but which is more fun to ski on piste, they are both super good off piste
when flat the effective edge of the Trust is 153cm and the Flyswatter is only 106cm as per the K2 vid above the maths are simple yes
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Quote:
Its well known twin tip skis hook up in deep snow - snow builds up against the twin tip making release of the turn hooky. Its a subtle effect - but skis with flat tails (i.e goliath, sidestash, katana, xxl) will always release from deep snow turns more smoothly.
FWIW - Gotama is a great ski.
Really enjoyed the one run I have had on them.
Never seen a real need for tail rocker - but then again I dont get to ski v.deep powder as much as I would like.
As ever - each to their own Very Happy
Ahh, that's a slightly different meaning to what I would describe as hooky (I would say the tails of a slalom ski were hooky for example), also the Volkl twins I have both have super low profile tips and tails, not a big 'scoop' that would create a large amount of that effect.
Anyway, here's a shot of me enjoying my tail rocker!
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
So, since we're on the topic of new fangled toys, has anyone skied the Salomon BBR?
I saw some marketing blurb that said ti was designed by the same guy who came up with the original XScream and the Pocket Rocket... Is the BBR going to be a similar hit? It looks a bit strange, but then so did the PR at the time, and it looks less odd than some of the heavily rockered skis.
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livetoski wrote:
jimmer, surf up turn?
No, that's a Does My Bum Look Big In This turn.
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Quote:
Is the BBR going to be a similar hit?
Funnily enough The Salomon rep bought a pair of BBRs to Glencoe on a demo day.
He seemed to love them... I didn't really have the heart to tell him I thought they were rank.
Far too much sidecut, 147-88-102, with surprisingly stiff tails.
Couldn't really work what (or more importantly who) these skis were for....
Maybe it would be a nice ski for 10cm of fresh snow on top of a firm piste.
Basically its an un-focussed ski and not that great in variable snow.
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Presumably a rocker would be a bit better on cut up/bumpy pistes? It's pretty rare that you get perfect groomers all day.
I reckon the BBR will be alright eventually, it's a new design so it's bound to need a bit of tweaking.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
only "got" it yesterday about piste skiing on these types of skis, after spending 3 hours on them at the snowdome in MK, maybe it was cos I wasn't with him and he played around even more than normal. His words to me was wow "I never realised that they could work like that" (for those of you who have seen him ski, you will understand!!)
as per the 
