 Poster: A snowHead
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| ccl, Under the 'Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992' it is clear that in this case the school is ‘the retailer’.... |
I agree . I am less clear whether the school, acting as retailers, have committed an offence in this case of Skiing Europe, but they do have some responsibility when they take on the role as retailer.
Whether parents would wish to deprive the school (that teaches their own kids) of funds in order to stand on the principle of a refund is another matter.
[edit - punctuation error corrected]
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 18-04-11 18:02; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, I agree, obviously.
I very much doubt a school was even aware that its legal entity/definition may change the minute they accepted money from parents. and should they actually be advising parents of this when the advertise the school ski trip ? that for the purposes of this arrangement the school is 'a retailer' and that its legal obligations to the parents and children has changed from its role as an education provider, and that teachers are not officially acting as teachers but as volunteer minders. Should a formal but brief contract be set up setting out the obligations/responsibilty of the parties? should the parents be informed that if for whatever reason the trp is cancelled that the school reserves the right not to refund the parents and will only give the money back if they can get it from the third party defaulter ? should the school actually be legally informing the parents in their capacity as 'retailer' under the 'Package Holidays and Package Tours Regulations 1992' of the name of the hotel that they will be staying in and if that changes that the parents have a right to cancel ? Should schools be taking out their own insurance to indemnify parents. Do the parents have the same rights as the school if the school changes (through the third party) the country location or hotel. Should the school be informing the parents which TO is being used so that they may a valued judgement whether they want to go with that TO - I looked at the Tavistock website and the details of the ski trip made no reference to SE !!
Is a school actually misrepresenting their position when they arrange one of these trips and is in breach of some technical trading or education regulation ?
I literally just had a chat with a nurse friend whose sister is a year head (or something) and she takes kids on ski trips and my friend was mortified to think that she would not get her money back from the school if something went wrong and had to wait for it for months and months for some uncertain legal process, and I can not print the reply I received when I mentioned how great it was for her sister to be helping the other parents kids learn and enjoy themselves in their own time, a slightly different view to your average snowHead involved with such trips 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rayscoops, if you want a discussion about the probity of the nursing profession, may I suggest another thread - in Apres? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, the nurse in question is the partner of my mate and works in psych !
looking at the obligations of the 'retailer' and 'the other party' as the retailer, I would suggest most schools have breached quite a few of the regulations. Unless they specifically defined 'the other party' as the 'organiser' rather than the 'retailer' both seem to have 'joint and several' liability with respect to many obligations
This is the point I am making, are schools correctly operating these trips within the regulations ? for want of a better phrase 'are they legal'
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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rayscoops, many schools will advertise the trip and invite parents to a meeting. It is quite common for the tour op to be present at this meeting and explain to the parents the relationship with themselves and the school.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| rayscoops, many schools will advertise the trip and invite parents to a meeting. It is quite common for the tour op to be present at this meeting and explain to the parents the relationship with themselves and the school. |
Ok so if they spend time at these meetings explaining their relationship was there any mention of what happens when it all go's Ti*s up?
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rayscoops,
Your posting above simply demonstrates that you have little actual knowledge of how schools work, of how ski trips and other out of school activities are organised, of parent-school relationships and of school-authority relationships. You make suppositions with no evidence at all and then draw conclusions from these suppositions.
A school offering a ski trip or any out of school activity that costs students to participate in clearly carries a responsibility for the delivery of what is paid for. I don't recollect any suggestion here or in the SE thread that this is otherwise. And if that means in legal definitions the school is called a "retailer" so be it. I don't see a problem in that: you are really creating your own windmills to tilt at. To infer from this responsibility such nonsense as " its legal obligations to the parents and children has changed from its role as an education provider, and .... teachers are not officially acting as teachers but as volunteer minders" is so astonishing that is has a certain quality - surreal but strangely fascinating.
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ccl, that was a quick edit 
this is a debate whether schools should continue to organise ski holidays and if so should teachers be the organsiers, I have pointed out some genuine administrative (if not legal) scenarios, in specific reply to a request from you, that are relevant and pertinent to the issue. The legal identity of the school is very important, especially when things go wrong, both finacially and god forbid medically !
When things go well there is never an issue, it is only when things go wrong that the failings of the arrangements that have been put in place come to light. It has been quite an eye opener for me at procurement of ski holidays at schools at the top tier level, and by that I do not mean the nitty gritty arrangements or organisation etc., I mean the fundamental contracting arrangements between parent and school, the legal relationship thereof, the lack protection of considerable sums of money that are handed over without surety and clear upfront statements and understandings of the rights and obligations of the parties. What is evident is that this entire process would perhaps benefit from an outsider to review it all, infact someone that has absoluely no knowledge of how schools work, of how ski trips and other out of school activities are organised, of parent-school relationships and of school-authority relationships ... some one who does not have any bias, does not make a living out of school ski trips, does not go on 'teacher weekks' etc ... because it all seems a little too cosey for my liking.
I am not putting parent against school, I am simply putting my view that parents may have a better chance of getting their money back from the school than waiting for a legal process that may yield nothing and I have actually been on some of the forum/comments pages and the majority of parents seem to want their money back from the ones who the gave to in good faith - the schools.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I have been party leader for nine ski trips, if some people think its a jolly then they need to think again. The responsibility is massive, one mistake your in the courts
Most teachers who lead trips have ski knowledge and those whom don't have opportunities to go on an inspection visit, it doesn't need to be at the same resort.
At my school all staff go free, although one year i personally paid to keep cost down for the small number students in our deprived area. Students pay over an 18 month period.
Teachers often give students their first opportunity on the slopes, why would anyone want to stop this is beyond me. Very few accidents happen because H&S in most cases is covered by teachers. tour operator, coach ferry operators, hoteliers and ski schools
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1969jma, ... err ... I think the recent loss of maybe £1 million by schools who had arranged ski trips is the driving factor as to why this question has been asked
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| leedsunited wrote: |
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| rayscoops, many schools will advertise the trip and invite parents to a meeting. It is quite common for the tour op to be present at this meeting and explain to the parents the relationship with themselves and the school. |
Ok so if they spend time at these meetings explaining their relationship was there any mention of what happens when it all go's Ti*s up? |
Dunno. Never been to one personally, as I'm not a teacher and I don't have kids 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| leedsunited wrote: |
| Elizabeth B wrote: |
| rayscoops, many schools will advertise the trip and invite parents to a meeting. It is quite common for the tour op to be present at this meeting and explain to the parents the relationship with themselves and the school. |
Ok so if they spend time at these meetings explaining their relationship was there any mention of what happens when it all go's Ti*s up? |
Dunno. Never been to one personally, as I'm not a teacher and I don't have kids |
I've run a few of these nights, for individual schools and for party leaders at a common venue e.g. Snowdome, Chill Factore etc. Its a good chance for grey areas to be cleared up and for parents to be assured that the kids are well catered for and are top priority. Always enjoyed these nights, mainly cause I love talking about skiing.
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I was going to start another thread called “will they never learn”.
I have just had another (I get many) request for a school group for next year.
I understand that the e mail is normally just a round-robin (fire it off to lots of TO’s and see what comes back) type thing but......
Latest one (NO I will not name and shame the school) is full of the normal stuff and is direct from the head teacher asking for the standard, costs for child rooms, how many children can possible be accommodated within each room, cost of supplements for twin rooms for teachers, can the invoice just show the final figures (so parents don’t know about what the teachers have got for free),etc. Plus the normal requests for a detailed run down of the resort, distance from hotel to ski school, evening activities, etc, etc, etc.
But no request for our bonding arrangements, ATOL number, etc, etc.
So get ready for another long thread about ____ TO. You can fill in the space next year or soon after with head teachers like this still around.
They'll learn one day.
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Can I make a suggestion - why not got the LEA's or someone else to appoint a group of people, maybe retired TO's or travel agents, but in any case someone who knows what they are doing, to organise and run these trip from start to finish. The sheer amount of (other people's) money involved have taken these trips outside of the capabilities of (however well meaning) enthusiastic amateur teachers who want to play at being a TO for their school.
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You know it makes sense.
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Wayne, I trust you'll write back refer him to the Skiing Europe thread and suggest he improves his procurement practices.
I would have thought that there is space somewhere in the industry for at least an independent Escrow agency that ensures that in these complex arrangements parents' money doesn't become school funds or used elsewhere by TOs.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Back to the original question, should school ski trips be stopped. Well of course not. Will kids want to go on them? That I don't know. Personal experience says "no".
"So guys do you want to come skiing with us to Austria, or go with the school to Canada? It's either or. We'll go skiing alone when you're away"
"We're coming with you"
"How come?" I ask... thinking with their mates and the chance to show off won't be missed
"Better food, more freedom, and you'll get us good rooms"
Damn.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Wayne, I trust you'll write back refer him to the Skiing Europe thread and suggest he improves his procurement practices. |
Not my job
We have, of course, looked at school group but...never say, never, but for now.....
They get a standard reply
Dear ''''''',
Many thanks indeed for the interest you have shown in joining us in the wonderful Italian Dolomites.
We’re sorry to say that we can’t offer you a quote as requested, as we don’t take school groups.
We suggest that you make enquiries with one of the major school group operators.
May we also, strongly, suggest that you make stringent, independent, checks on bonding prior to paying over any money.
Many thanks again for your interest and hopefully we will be able to offer you something on a personal basis in the future.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatirishman, I think its already been fairly well established that school skiing trips aren't very good for or even targeted at kids who already go skiing. For such kids the chance to tit around with their mates is the only real selling point at the expense of actually skiing a lot. What's sad about the SE affair and any knock on impact it may have is that potentially there is a whole load of kids who've missed their one opportunity to be introduced to skiing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I never went on a school skiing trip as my parents weren't wealthy enough. Back then the cost of a sending me skiing for a week was the equivalent of a family camping holiday in the UK or near Europe, for the entire family. Quite rightly, my parents spent their money on family holidays, albeit that we could stay in hotels as they hadn't spent the pot by sending me skiing.
Some people have implied that if kids don't go on school skiing trips, they will never fall in love with the mountains. That's rubbish. I didn't ski until I was 25 (when I could afford to pay for myself) and I instantly fell in love with it. Since then (over 20 years ago) I have been most years and for the last 6 years have been 3-4 weeks a year.
The main reason why my parents couldn't afford it (we weren't poor and they weren't mean) was that these trips have always represented diabolical value for money.
I also think, despite all the hand wringing that we have seen on the other thread, that these trips are for the benefit of the teachers. Their penance for their free skiing trip is that they must take the kids along.
I wouldn't want to stop the trips but I do think they are the exclusive preserve of wealthy parents, or parents that are slaves to their children. I also think that Reynard will not be the last crook to prey on gullible heads of school, all being pressurised by teachers keen on a free skiing holiday. As an example, I would ask how many schools would organise skiing trips if all of the child supervision was undertaken by professionals working for the travel company.
I don't have any kids and am not a teacher so am not affected by the running of these trips, but perhaps that lets me look at them from an unbiased position.
My conclusion is that they should go ahead but should be more inclusive for children from less affluent families. Perhaps the LEA should have grants that athletic children could apply for. Either way, in their current format that are not good value, they are not available to all and whilst they are run by amateurs they are an accident or a fraud case waiting to happen.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| fatirishman, I think its already been fairly well established that school skiing trips aren't very good for or even targeted at kids who already go skiing. |
I've got to disagree with that. I've taught many top end groups on school ski trips. It's better than for the beginners. They (beginners) can be crammed into groups of 12 (if not more) whilst the "runners" end up in small classes i.e. 3 or 4. This is not always the case. When I was tour organising I made a point of getting a split of abilities as soon as possible and advising the party leader to consider the split in ability levels/number of instructors very carefully. An extra instructor, split over 40 kids, is about £20 per kid. The advantage of the extra instructor is massive. I've NEVER seen intermediate kids put in a beginners class...NEVER! If this does happen it proves that the person/company organising the trip know diddly squat about how a trip should be organised and the party leaders have not given the issue enough thought.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just to back up my arguement, at halft term (with Skiing Europe), we had 2 beginners groups (one was mine), one intermediate group and one advanced group. The intermediates were pushed fairly hard, the advanced was full on for 5.5/6 hours per day. I skied with them a couple of times at the end of the day down to Grindlewald.....they were pushed very hard, believe me. I blame the mental Welshman teaching them.
I can state how strongly I, respectfully, disagree with fatbob's comment about kids who already ski.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| bar shaker wrote: |
I also think, despite all the hand wringing that we have seen on the other thread, that these trips are for the benefit of the teachers. Their penance for their free skiing trip is that they must take the kids along. . |
Sheer supposition on your part in no way supported by anyone who has actually experienced the work of running a ski trip but I don't suppose anyone is ever going to persuade those who hold to this myth
| bar shaker wrote: |
| I wouldn't want to stop the trips but I do think they are the exclusive preserve of wealthy parents, or parents that are slaves to their children. |
A rather huge generalisation. I could cite many examples of youngsters I have known going on ski trips who are by no means the offspring of wealthy parents some of whom for example worked very hard at paper rounds, in supermarkets and the like in order to raise some of the money themselves.
| bar shaker wrote: |
| ...all being pressurised by teachers keen on a free skiing holiday. |
Here we go again. Try, just try to consider the possibility that there is a large proportion of the teaching profession which actually does that extra bit for pupils without any other motive than the benefit of the young people. Try. just try to think the best of people!
| bar shaker wrote: |
| As an example, I would ask how many schools would organise skiing trips if all of the child supervision was undertaken by professionals working for the travel company. |
I'm not sure how this is connected with the notion that teachers are just keen on a so-called "free holiday". The answer is probably very few because the costs would be prohibitive. Even if it were affordable, any residential experience would lose an enormous amount of its value if it were not staffed by the youngsters' own teachers. The payback from out of school activities in terms of in-school relationships is considerable. I suspect too that parents would be much less comfortable if their children were going off with a completely unknown group of adults rather than with the teachers they know and trust.
| bar shaker wrote: |
| Perhaps the LEA should have grants that athletic children could apply for. Either way, in their current format that are not good value, they are not available to all and whilst they are run by amateurs they are an accident or a fraud case waiting to happen. |
Again I could cite many examples from my own experience of less well off children being supported by the school, by social work department and by applications to charitable organisations. I can't generalise from this but would be surprised if it were not the same across the country. Add to that fund-raising activities to keep the costs down. Do give schools the credit for being aware of the dangers of skiing being out of the reach of too many and doing something about ensuring less well off pupils get the chance.
A school ski trip is not run by amateurs, for goodness' sake, but by professionals: teachers, TO staff, coach drivers, hoteliers, ski instructors..... Your alarmist conclusion is not supported by the thousands of children who have been on and gained enormously from successful ski trips over many many years. Sorry, I think I have said that before, but that is the context in which we should place Skiing Europe's debacle.
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| Basoid wrote: |
| They (beginners) can be crammed into groups of 12 (if not more) whilst the "runners" end up in small classes. |
Most British people (who have skied previously) tend to be Level 3. They just stay at this level – always. Sometimes you’ll get someone who does pick it up and move up to L4, but they are rare. And, before anyone says it, it’s not the instructors fault. In fact it’s no one “fault”. Skiing above a certain level (about top end L3) becomes a “sport” as opposed to a pastime.
Here’s the thing though kids, will if given the right teaching move up to L4 and hover around there. Some will move to L5 but not all.
I know of a reasonable well known UK TO that brings school groups to our resort, that (to cut costs to school group) actually insists on a specific number of teachers 1 to 12.
But say you have 60 kids of which 15 have never skied and say 15 have skied for one week and the rest are L3 – you then have you then end up with the L3’s with 1 instructor (that’s 30 kids) - yes it does happen "lots". I see groups of 17,18,19,20+ every week with this TO
It is NOT with our ski school but with another – I know the director and he say if he’s won’t allow it then they will go somewhere else so what can he do when he has to get work for the teachers. Our school is the official AMSI National in the area (a bit like the ESF) so the rules are dead strict - which is why this TO use another school.
Oh and the head teacher can tell the parents it’s a 1:12 ratio so everyone is happy
For the L1,2,3,4,5 that I use see here, it's just a system I came up with - there are "many" others
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| Basoid wrote: |
| I can state how strongly I, respectfully, disagree with fatbob's comment about kids who already ski. |
Fair enough I can only accept that you have more front end experience than me, but from anecdotal experience of skiing families who have sent their kids on school trips they've generally reported the kids had a good time but weren't really stretched. I suspect reason for this is that in lets say a population of 11-13 year olds at the top end you may have athletic kids with 8 weeks or more skiing experience alongside 2nd weekers in the intermediate "bucket".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Thanks ccl. You last post has made me go back and read the post by bar shaker.
| Quote: |
I don't have any kids and am not a teacher so am not affected by the running of these trips, but perhaps that lets me look at them from an unbiased position.
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No bar shaker, I think it lets you look at them from an ill-informed position. I did start skiing when I was at school, nearly 30 years ago now out of pure luck, it was with a different school from my own. However I do appreciate that we can fall in love with the mountains at any age. My ex housemate's little boy has just signed up for his school ski trip for the 12/13 season. He's saving his £5 per week pocket money to pay for it, if a school plans ahead almost anyone can afford it.
As I've stated before, there are some teachers who do book for the jolly but this is a very small percentage. In all of my years dealing with school groups, and I reckon that runs to about 180-190 groups, there are less than a dozen group where the teachers weren't there to give the kids the chance of experiencing something amazing and broadening their horizons. Sure they get to ski themselves and they deserve to do so. I always made a point, and asked my reps to do the same, of asking the kids to appreciate what the teachers have done for them during the end of week presentation.
We all have, and are allowed, our opinions of these issues but having some first hand experience does help. I've seen the best and the worst of school ski trips and if i had to cast my vote one way or the other, I'm with the teachers... you (generally) do a great job.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| Basoid wrote: |
| I can state how strongly I, respectfully, disagree with fatbob's comment about kids who already ski. |
Fair enough I can only accept that you have more front end experience than me, but from anecdotal experience of skiing families who have sent their kids on school trips they've generally reported the kids had a good time but weren't really stretched. I suspect reason for this is that in lets say a population of 11-13 year olds at the top end you may have athletic kids with 8 weeks or more skiing experience alongside 2nd weekers in the intermediate "bucket". |
You're right there fatbob. If a trip had one instructor for every level of ability there would be 20 instructors per 40 kids. A responsible instructor has to teach to the level of the lowest ability level in the group, however an experienced and responsible instructor will be able to engage the top end of the group whilst bringing on the lower end. Its a tough one but can be done.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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so do schools have a contract for parents to sign when the parents hand their money over, and do schools sign a contact with the TO when they hand the parents money over to the TO ? are there any terms and conditions that are read and agreed to by signing something etc. at these times ?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| so do schools have a contract for parents to sign when the parents hand their money over, and do schools sign a contact with the TO when they hand the parents money over to the TO ? are there any terms and conditions that are read and agreed to by signing something etc. at these times ? |
From the TO's point of view (well, the one's I've worked for) there is a booking form that had to be signed and each TO has a set of terms and conditions attached to the booking. These come in the form of "our responsibility to you" and vice versa. Having done a bit of research a year ago or so they seem to be pretty much alike for most TOs.
In my experience parents sign a consent form but I'm sure others will elaborate further.
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ccl, I wasn't sure if you were involved in education, you have shown that you are.
You have also shown, to the non teachers reading this, that my concerns are valid.
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You know it makes sense.
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I was pretty p!ssed off that my daughter was refused the afternoon off before the start of the Easter break a couple of weeks ago. Especially as the school ski trip takes about 60 pupils and staff out for a whole day before the February half term.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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... and ccl, can you please stop banging on about teachers giving up their precious, scarce holiday time to go on free skiing holidays, solely for the benefit of the kids, as even other teachers won't believe you.
If you really want to do something valuable on your holiday time (you're on an extended holiday for the whole of April, aren't you?), go round to the houses of the kids that are lagging and give them some free days of tuition.
Oh, too busy with the private tuition you charge for?
I am all for teachers and have 3 who are good friends. It is them that told me skiing holidays are treated as a massive free jolly... if you have worked your way up the hierarchy and can actually get on one.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bar shaker wrote: |
ccl, I wasn't sure if you were involved in education, you have shown that you are.
You have also shown, to the non teachers reading this, that my concerns are valid. |
It must have been pretty obvious in most of my postings that I was involved in education and on a part-time basis in ski instruction. You may see this as significant in some negative way while others may see it as an indication that what I say - whether agreed with or not - is at least based on sound experience and knowledge. I am at a loss as to how what I have said shows your concerns to be valid. I would have thought the opposite.
| bar shaker wrote: |
| and ccl, can you please stop banging on about teachers giving up their precious, scarce holiday time to go on free skiing holidays, |
I haven't been and I don't intend to. But I will respond to ill-considered, unjustifiable and unsubstantiated vilification of a lot of hard-working people who do in truth have the best interests of young people in mind. Basoid spoke of the 5% of teachers on ski trips he/she has seen who were not doing the job they should have been doing. It is inevitable in any profession that there is a percentage like that. Do you mean us to infer that your 3 friends who regard ski trips as a jolly to belong to that percentage?
Teachers don't have "scarce holiday time"; they have as is well known, generous holiday time. I've never been one to deny that and indeed never been one particularly to justify it - there are too many other people who work long hours in stressful jobs with fewer holidays to plead a special case for teachers.
I am not alone in pointing out with evidence that a school ski trip is not a "free skiing holiday" for the staff. Look at what Basoid has said from a TO's point of view, for instance. And can you imagine what kind of "holiday" it was for the staff of the trip on which that laddie was involved in that horrible chairlift accident and subsequently died? The possibility of that sort of thing is always there in the mind and it would be naive and foolish of any teacher to undertake a ski trip without knowing the worst could happen. Mercifully it very seldom does, but there is always the routine of illnessnesses, accidents, kids falling out with each other, kids pushing the limits etc to go along with the great satisfaction of watching and assisting in their sporting and social development. And when things are going well, there is the great satisfaction of getting some skiing in. And sure, we probably wouldn't do it if there weren't the possibility of at least some skiing. We certainly wouldn't do it if weren't generally enjoyable and professionally satisfying. To turn that into the notion of a jolly is too big an inferential leap. Those that see it as a jolly are getting it wrong and are simply being unprofessional.
Much of the rest of what you say is unnecessarily rude. You have know idea what I have done with my holiday or weekend time over the years (other than by inference putting some of it into organising and running ski trips for young people). The rest is my business and you have no justification for inventing your own version.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ccl, I initially thought you were a ski instructor worried about losing some business from schools
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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bar shaker, never read such ill-informed b0llox, frankly.
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these trips are for the benefit of the teachers
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Come back and tell me that when you've spent months organising payment, running fundraising events, drumming up interest, spending your evenings in parents' meetings and then spent a week of your holiday being responsible 24/7 for 40-odd teenagers - keeping discipline, dealing with squabbles/illness/injuries/homesickness, supervising evening ents, skiing with the beginner group all week .............. etc. You know nothing.
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I do think they are the exclusive preserve of wealthy parents, or parents that are slaves to their children.
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I learned to ski through school - I doubt if would ever have done so otherwise. My parents were far from wealthy (one primary school teacher, one field sales rep) and my mother was exceedingly fond of the word 'no'. Some of my peers on those trips were financially better off than me and some worse. None of us came from wealthy families. Mr L, the son of a single mother who worked as a nurse, went skiing with his school having paid the full cost himself with money earned by mopping floors at Hellingly mental hospital.
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Perhaps the LEA should have grants that athletic children could apply for
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So fat geeky kids aren't allowed to ski now? That's nice.
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they are run by amateurs
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What's 'amateur' about a fully qualified teacher? 
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skiing holidays are treated as a massive free jolly... if you have worked your way up the hierarchy and can actually get on one.
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Poncy private school, perchance? The majority of adults I see on school trips are ordinary teaching staff, most of them fairly young.
Speaking as someone who can only ski now because my school had an active outdoor ed department and my parents were willing to let me go, I think the naysayers are being a bunch of selfish killjoys. You lot are all skiers - you're in a position to give your children this opportunity yourselves. Lucky them. What about the rest of us? 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Lizzard, nice rant and well said!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
Speaking as someone who can only ski now because my school had an active outdoor ed department... |
You selectively quoted me for effect but I am not bothered about that, after all, it's only the internet
What does concern me is the notion that unless kids go on school trips, they will never learn to ski. I suspect that most kids, whose parents can afford it, only go on one or, at most, two trips. These kids may then not go again until they can afford to pay for their own holidays (assuming they don't go with uni on their student loans!).
I started skiing in my mid twenties, having never been on a school trip. Half of the group on that first trip had been on school trips, some were good, most were not because of having not skied for nearly 10 years. The fact that they went on school trips had little effect on the enjoyment we all got, doing the holiday as young adults.
Skiing holidays are nice things to do but they aren't essential education curriculum.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
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they are run by amateurs
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What's 'amateur' about a fully qualified teacher? |
I think the point was that teachers are amateurs when it comes to operating large scale tour operations, which by inference (as these are school ski trip) means controlling tens of thousands of pounds of other people’s money.
QED they will open to exploitation by some people who really know about the industry
Just because you are qualified to teach PE does that make you qualified to teach physics and if you did have a try at it, even with your teaching experience (in PE), would that not make you an amateur physics teacher. Just as you are qualified in one thing does not preclude your amateur status in others.
Maybe it’s not just the TO that needs to be bonded.
As teachers/schools have set themselves up as de facto tour operators why shouldn’t they, as I do, be required to hold a bond before being allowed to create package holidays and deal with other people’s holiday money.
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Wayne, if all they do is book a trip with the likes of Skiplan, how does that make them a tour operator?
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| Wayne wrote: |
I think the point was that teachers are amateurs when it comes to operating large scale tour operations, which by inference (as these are school ski trip) means controlling tens of thousands of pounds of other people’s money. |
I am sure they would be if they did. But they don't. As Lizzard points out, booking the school ski trip is not a matter of operating a large scale tour operation. It is just booking a trip as a client with a company which does operate a large scale tour operation. And in what way do the teachers control tens of thousands of pounds? They take payments in from participants, probably in instalments carefully worked out to ensure there is enough in the bank to pay the TO each of the tranches that are due by certain dates. The money will be handed over to the school's finance officer for banking - I expect by the end of each day it is taken in - and the likelihood is that the finance officer issues the cheque for the instalments to the TO because the Party Leader is unlike to have the authority to do so . It is a pretty simple business although time-consuming and will be accounted for within the school's procedures and I expect audited (if a State school) by the LEA. Money in from pupils, money out to TO to pay for a product; properly accounted for and audited. In those terms it is very well controlled.
The "control" of that money in terms of providing the service that has been bought by the client is entirely down to the TO which is the "professional" in the business of large scale tour operations. And all this discussion has been generated by just one operator and it is that operator who has pretty certainly lost control.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 21-04-11 13:48; edited 3 times in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Lizzard,
If that's all they did then it would be fine, but they don't.
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Wayne, you'll find very few schools doing DIY, for all the extremely obvious reasons.
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FAQ
