Should school ski trips be stopped and should teachers run them ?

A snowHead

Should school ski trips be allowed and, if they are, should teachers organise and run them?

1st, it is a fact that ski trips have been seen for quite some time as part of many school’s extracurricular activities, but should this still be the case?

There are 2 sides to the argument. The pro camp will argue that be taking a child outside of their normal environment with their peers can only be a benefit to the overall social maturing of children. They will point out that ski trips have been run for many years and have a positive effect on each child. The nay camp will point out, that some children’s parent can’t afford a skiing holiday and so this applies negative peer pressure onto the child. They may add those holidays are best enjoyed in a family group.

Next, should teachers with, in many cases, no qualifications or training in travel tourism, albeit that some do have a great deal of experience, be able to organise and accompanying a ski trip for school children. Of course it would be simple to refer children that have died or been seriously injured on these trips, in fact just as easy to point out that a number of trips have not been provided either due to the tour operator not supplying the trip or due to the failure of another aspect of the trip. But, in the vast majority of cases school ski trips do pass by with very little drama, so it’s back to the question of whether teachers should be authorised to run them.

On the plus side there is the argument that a teacher will be best able to choose a resort / operator / etc that is suitable for the children in their charge. Teachers have been running trips for years and they enjoy operating them, the children get to ski the teachers in a more relaxed atmosphere and to (some extent) socialise. The negative side would be that teachers are not experts in the field and they can, and have, been duped by unscrupulous tour operators in the past. Educational work is hard enough without the added work involved in running out of school trips. Teachers leave themselves open to accusations regarding the perceived Freebies they receive such as inspection trips, discounts for family members etc.

There are many arguments to both sides. Some valid some not, some good, some bad and some just obvious examples of self-justification, oh and some plainly ridiculous.

Discuss Toofy Grin

PS – we do NOT run school trips

A snowHead

Well done for doing as I suggested and separating the Skiing Europe thread from the alternative agenda.

Why stick to ski trips? In my time as a teacher, I took many theatre trips, took some sixth formers down a coal mine, went canal -boating, camping, hill-walking, to cricket matches and many others. Why not stop the lot?

snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Wayne, I tried skiing first with a school trip way back in the 60s. We had a fantastic time - and I developed a love of snow I've never lost. Wouldn't want to deny the modern generation the same start.

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School trips should be financially viable and affordable for the majority of the pupils unless the trip is a formal one representing the school such as a chess team competition, international spelling test tournament, rugby tour, ski competition etc., in which case it should be subsidised so that everyone can afford it. Every recreational (non representative) school trip should meet this fundamental criterion.

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no and yes

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After all it is free

Wayne, irrelevant m'lud Very Happy

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Wayne, wrote

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why would you book a trip without booking a specific hotel that appropriate.. school ski trips have been run by teachers for years leave em alone to get on with it.. yes there will be the odd balls up and occasionally an injury or worse.. if you dont fancy the risk dont send your kid .

I had a lot more fun, and got a lot more out of, ski trips through PGL as a youngster, than I did with the school. Partly I met a load of kids from all kinds of backgrounds and different areas, who were a range of different ages, and who had all kinds of different skiing abilities. The cost was almost identical to the cost of school ski trips at the time, but I went to a school that didn't run ski trips.

Then I moved schools, and there were school trips that I enjoyed a lot, and wouldn't be anywhere near as tied to skiing as I am now, but I could have carried on going on PGL trips with trained adults that did nothing but organise kids outdoor pursuits activities. Frankly they were much better at it than the teachers who frankly were on holiday with a bit of riot control involved, instead of dedicated to a kids fun holiday with a bit of skiing as an incidental extra, in resorts designed for a range of abilities, and accommodation suitable for a group of youngsters.

Of course, there are teachers that are very capable of doing this, however the standard clearly will vary a great deal.

Oh, and companies like PGL are also ATOL bonded, inspected and assessed by independent organisations, and have a lengthy history of successfully organising hundreds of trips like it. Plus each parent makes the call, so there is no risk of bribery - the parent is hardly going to get a free "risk assessment" trip beforehand for their small number of kids...

You know it makes sense.

Schools run ski trips just so that teachers ger a free ski holiday - Fact!

wink

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

Mosha Marc, Not in my experience. I ran two successful trips (no free inspection visits) and then realised that I had been lucky and hadn't had to spend time accompanying a kid to hospital or one of the other myriad things which would stop me skiing. If we are still a free country then teachers can choose to organise them and kids can choose to go or not.

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Wayne, sorry, I've lost your plot. are we talking about the use of calculators or school trips?

If we are talking about calculators:

I went to school and engineering training at Cranwell where, in both cases, the use of slide rules was expected to cope with applied maths (at school) and (at Cranwell) to all sorts of engineering calculations. It was thumped into us that the slide rule was useful, but we should always have in our heads a ball-ark figure (usually from applying mental arithmetic to approximations) in our heads for what the result should be - otherwise we could blindly write down a result that was orders of magnitude wrong. I trust the same rule is applied to the use of calculators and computers at schools today. If not then core reform is needed. If the standard of maths at your school was rotten, then it would still have been rotten whether or not there was the occasional school trip.

If we are talking about school trips, then I see no reason to change my comments above.

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Monium, It's a common misconception that Mathematics is about numbers - it's not. There are many mathematicians who are ace at numeric work, but you can be a brilliant mathematician and visualise in (n+1) dimensions and hopeless with numbers. As a friend of mine said - " there are three types of mathematicians - those who can add up restaurant bills and those who can't" Laughing

After all it is free

Without school trips and activities there is no way I'd have ever gone skiing, pony trekking, canoeing, orienteering, etc. My grandparents idea of a holiday was the slot machines at Blackpool.

welshskier, When it comes to maths most people fall into one of 10 categories: those who understand binary and those who don't.

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OP; No and No.

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I thought that most schools insisted on at least one member of staff doing the ASL qualification just for the cheaper insurance?

The scholls OOOOP 'ERE usually send a member of staff for a HSE pre visit to do the risk assesments etc before going with the main group wink

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CANV CANVINGTON, you have too much money.

You know it makes sense.

No
YES

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I work for a company that provides coaches for companies such as PGL etc as well as providing just coaches for teachers that wish to organise their own trips. From what i see when i am with the groups, teachers do tend to fall into 2 distinct categories. There are the teachers who think the kids (not always rich kids) will get something worthwhile out of it and therefore put their heart and soul into it. These trips are usually superb for the kids and the teachers and a good time is had by all. The other category is the one where the majority of teachers are just on a jolly for their own enjoyment and expect the rep to look after the kids whilst they go off skiing. This usually leads to a much more disjointed affair and increased stress etc although the kids rarely notice. The key thing i think is that regardless, the kids usually have a great time and interestingly, even the problem children tend to behave far better outside of the school environment which can only be a good thing.

So should they be allowed? yes, should teachers run them? up to them. personally, id leave the hassle of that to someone else like a tour company.

biased point of view finished Smile

A snowHead

as Frosty the Snowman, says...

No and Yes...

But the Schools need to ask themselves why they are paying fairly decent whacks to go to poor hotels in poor resorts with companies who don't sell many holidays to Adults spending their own money. And they need to do financial and coach safety due diligence regardless of LEA listing,

A snowHead

Yes they should run school ski trips - i had two brilliant trips at school
Yes they should be organised by teachers - with an appropriate company supporting them

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Might be easier btw if the first question wasn't put in the opposite fashion in the title and the OP of this thread...

But Wayne is an instructor - so it must be right... Wink

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If school ski trips are to be continued then there needs to be a serious look at the entire process and structure.

Firstly the environment of the jolly/freebie inspection week away by teachers with a vested interest in booking the trip should cease immediately. Some form of travel agency watch dog or whatever should be given the task to checking and vetting ski companies and the facilities on offer on a yearly basis, and issue reports for schools to decide on the quality of the companies. This facility would be paid for by a small tax on school trip premiums.

The same watch dog will be obliged to issue executive reports on the performance of the companies - like ofsted do for schools etc.

Formal notification and confirmation of arrangements by travel companies should be a mandatory requirement and these notifications will include proof that accommodation/travel/instructor facilities are booked and confirmed. These notifications should be issued 6 months and two weeks before departure.

No payment by a school for the trip should be made without a formal notification that the money is secured by a bond, and not just a logo on a website, and there has to be a formal bond issued - I insist on such bonds regularly with my job in the construction industry for upfront payments, release of retentions and proper performance and I am amazed that such 'on demand' bonds are not the norm when a school hands over £100 K of other people's money

School ski trips should be brought in to the school calendar year and become a 'field trip', should include a morning of academic work (languages, history, social science etc in relation to the country/indutry etc) and an afternoon of skiing. This will help reduce the cost and make such trips more affordable for a greater number of kids, not just kids of middle class snowHeads types

Supervisory teachers should not ski - they are there in their official capacity as teachers and not some quasi blurred role (because they are doing it for the love of the job, but yeah I do like skiing too), the afternoon skiing should be adminstered by formal guides/instructors etc.

Free 'down' time will be allowed for the teachers in the same way they work 40 hours a week or whatever, so a day or two will probably be their officiial 'non teaching' time, but they will be required to pay themselves for any activity in the same way as if they were using their free time at home

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I know by now it is not worth pursuing a reasoned argument about these points. Sufficient to say some are totally unnecessary; some are totally impractical; and some could simply end most forms of extra-curricular activity. I am curious however about the motivation behind some of it. rayscoops, seems to have a real problem in recognising that it is acceptable for anyone undertaking voluntary youth work to enjoy doing it and that if it were made impossible for them to enjoy it, it simply wouldn't happen. The antipathy towards teachers is all too evident here and in the thread about Skiing Europe, but I wonder if it extends to others involved in voluntary youth work. Does he similarly have it in for community youth workers, parents who run sports teams, leaders of youth organisations like the Scouts, BB, Guides, etc., - in short people who, like teachers running a ski trip or any other out of school activity, voluntarily give up time and energy to organising and running youth activities and take on the considerable responsibility of looking after other people's children?

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ccl, I have not mentioned any of the fantastic work voluteers do in running sports and other activities for every one, irrespective of colour, race, social status or ability to pay so I have no idea why you have raised this as I have not intimated any problem in recognising that it is acceptable for anyone undertaking voluntary youth work to enjoy doing it - in fact I have done that very same thing myself in the past.

My comments have been limited to a specific activity that is a multi-million pound industry that hangs on the shirt tails of schools, parents and children. Now I know that it is probably hard for you to accept criticism of the industry in which you work, but unless you are going to participate in this thread in the way it was intended please stop Trolling.

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Let face it (and try and least to be honest) about this. School inspection visits are a marketing ploy that’s a pure and simple fact. OK, they may be dolled up as Health and Safety Inspection, Facilities Preview or whatever, and to some extent these roles are fulfilled on the trip/visit but the real reason they are there is marketing.

Originally some LEA or school may have decided that a pre-trip visit by the organising teacher was a good idea for various reasons; some philanthropic, some not so, but this original idea has blossomed into a “norm”, to such an extent that some teachers now see it as a right (and perk) and will not book with a TO that does not offer a pre-trip visit for them.

These inspection visits have almost nothing to the with H&S. I, as the owner of a TO Co, know this full well. I can inspect a hotel’s facilities, fire escapes, room facilities, kitchens, ect in around a hour. It does not require a full week’s trip (with accompanying family members).

Who pays for them, well the TO does. Where do they get the money from to pay for them; from the mark up they make on selling trips? The rationalisation behind the offering of free trip is simple. If you offer someone a free trip under a pretext that they (the teacher) feel justified in accepting and they can (and do) and are able to explain as part of their role as a responsible group leader, they will jump at the chance - be daft not to really.

There is nothing wrong with this, we all do it. Go to a supermarket and see the offers flying here there and everywhere, you’ll take them, even though you understand that offer is being paid for from the mark-up on the rest of your shopping. But with teachers, on inspection trips, the relationship is different, from a visit to a supermarket, in that they are accepting an offer that someone else is paying for. Another aspect to consider is that the group will pay for the trip (and the inspection visit) on the advice of the very person who has accepted the offer.

There will be howls of indignation from some quarters as it may be that they really do believe their visit is an absolute requirement for the safety of the children in their charge, or, more likely as teachers tend to be quite intelligent, they will fully understand the relationship they are entering into and simply not care – it’s a perk of the job after all. Ok, this may be so and in this case shouldn’t someone, trained and qualified in all aspects of H&S visit the resort for an hour or so and then report back – they could visit various resorts/hotels on behalf of the school. This is, probably, the only way round someone accepting a marketing gift from a company and then advising other people to pay many tens of thousands of pound to the same company.

So let be honest about this, tour operators offer teachers week long free (or heavily subsidised) trips to induce them to bring large groups back in the future and for no other reason. Mind you (IMO), there is nothing wrong with marketing as long as the people marketing (the TO) and the recipient (the teacher) both accept that it is purely a commercial relationship.

Help!!

Should school ski trips be stopped and should teachers run them ?

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