Sharing lift passes

A snowHead

We ski a lot in 3V so have had the Liberty pass for about 3 years. As mentioned by bertie basset its good if you ski more than 8 days but not a full season. Your credit card gets charged at the end of each week for the days you have skied, either Meribel or 3V, with a 10% discount, 10 Euros off on saturdays and every 6th day free. Works out much cheaper for us and we can have the odd 'bad weather' day off.
Last year we had already been skiing several days with the passes in our pockets when we were pulled in by the liftie. We had each other's passes and he was the first liftie to notice this. No problems as we just switched passes. The Liberty pass does have a digital photo on the chip in it from when we first bought them and has our name and details electronically on it so the lifties are meant to check on their screen as you go through, but all it shows in print is a Christian name.
They can ask to see the receipt but if its a couple sharing it (6 day) obviously either could have paid for it so probably no problem.

A snowHead

In Tignes you show your passort when you buy passes, at least ones that last a week, and they scan in your photo.

At the lifts at resort level there are usually people who manually scan the tickets and check to see if your face matches. They also have the screen in the lifty shed too.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

^^same in dolomiti superski (at least for our 8 day passes). They wanted ID, and copied name from that on to the pass, and then took a photo with a handheld webcam.
Assume this wasn't necessary for the 6 day passes (except for concessions), but afaik they do assign male/female to each pass (and you have to write name on to validate it).

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In general and at the moment this wouldn't affect me. In 2009 however we went to 3V (Les Menuires) and we had a nearly 4yo in his first weeks skiing, a no-skiing 20 month old and 4 adults. One of the adults was a non-skier and we shared two lift passes between us, swapping not just each day but each part day. It would have been a right royal PIA to sort out buying lift passes on a "per session" basis. Now, no doubt the lift company would say we should buy 3 lift passes but that would result in poor value for money. Having said that under the old photograph lift pass system we would have to have done that so....

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as mentioned already, i'd just watch that the insurance side of things, if you have an accident and the name on the insurance and pass dont match you'll find yourself in trouble. Not necessarily with the insurance company, but piste security wont know which you have, a valid pass, or valid insurance....they'll take you down to hospital, but you can then expect to be hit with a hefty fine for not having a valid lift ticket, quickly followed by worrying about whether the insurance company will use it as a dodge to avoid paying out Confused

i'd just buy day passes and avoid the stress and worry Smile

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T&C in English here, found in 20 seconds, http://www.skigastein.com/en/winter/preise-und-zeiten/konditionen but it doesn't say anything about fines.

It says
Photo
Photo required for ski-pass from 9 days! Photo machines at all cashpoints, existing photos may not be used. The ski-pass is not transferable!

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For interest compare with the German version of that page. It doesn't even mention the non-transferabality. However, that's not the full terms and conditions. (Which aren't available in English, it seems).

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NotAllThere, Everyone knows that ski passes are not transferable - it is in all versions of the T&Cs so that even the most anal can see it! Fines are at the discretion of the lift company, especially of you are sharing a pass that runs out on the day you are caught. Normally they just confiscate the pass and make you buy an appropriate one with no allowances for the remaining time: i.e if you are caught at 15.00 they will make you buy an entire day pass regardless of how much time is remaining or when you started skiing that day. That is the "fine" I've seen applied most often.

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I should have known - no argument. Every day we make decisions - sometimes we make the wrong one, and suffer the consequences. Do I go through that amber light, or stop? I go; whoops it's red. Darn, got caught on camera - fine + points. Deliberately seeking to defraud? Not really, just not thinking things through.

Burying the facts that you're under photographic surveillance? I think that's a gross invasion of privacy regardless.

But not everyone does know that passes aren't transferable. Not everyone reads the terms and conditions (which can be hard to find the details of, and usually are in local language), not everyone pays attention to signs posted in large letters, first timers may well not know, and some ski passes are transferable. E.g. Engelberg 5/7.

Maybe everyone thinks passes are not transferable but it's not always the case. See items I.2 and II.2 on the Chatel conditions:

http://info.chatel.com//images/info_pages/conditions-generales-de-vente-2011-2012-3079.pdf

Part day or 1-7 day passes are "Au porter", 8 day plus are "Personnel" (identified by photo) and half or full season passes are "Nominatif" (photo, name, address, shoe size, inside leg measurement.....)

I.2 in full reads:
"Les titres de transport nominatifs et personnels sont incessibles et intransmissibles. Les titres de transport au porteur sont cessibles et transmissibles."

You know it makes sense.

Yesterday in Baquiera, two or three people in front of me were stopped by the person scanning(*) the barcodes of the passes, half of which are old-school sticky things that you fold around a metal pin that you hook through your jacket zipper, and half of which are cardboard things attached with one of those plastic one-directional ratchets. The people admitted they were using other relatives' passes, and the steward cut the passes off and confiscated them. (The weather was quite bad, whereas the preceding days were sunny; I guess the rellies couldn't be bothered that day, or maybe it was the plan to share them all along.)

I don't know how the steward knew the passes were borrowed; they looked in normal condition to me. Perhaps the plastic ratches were the wrong colour. Certainly, there are no cameras or fancy stuff.

It pays to be careful, it seems! It's quite common in the low-key resorts that I've been to, to try to sell (eg) the second day of weekend passes after injury or simply bad weather on the second day. It's usually successful, but it is definitely neessary to give a bit of thought to avoiding making the passes look tampered with.

(*) They claim it's quicker than using electronic passes and turnstyles. It probably is. It also provides employment for the locals, and the staff are friendly and happy to offer brief advice about the resort, off-piste conditions etc.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Pyremaniac, I was in Canada (or maybe Breck) and wanted to put my pass on a different jacket. I had to take the pass and origianal ratchet thingy to the cashier before she would give me a new ratchet thingy

A snowHead

Will prob do this in chamonix in the hope that my oh may go back to skiing a bit while I take the little man (with the goal being to increase th potential of future 'family' ski holidays)

Anyone know if there's any danger of being caught out there? You would assume the seasonnaires would know about this?

A snowHead

Nothing to do with sharing passes but in times gone by when most resorts had some kind of ticket which permantly attached to your jacket I always used an additional sprung clip of some kind, particularly on the kids because jackets and salopettes sometimes neeeded to be changed. It never occurred to me that you were not supposed to be able to take them off rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

8611, Yes big danger and if you're caught you lose the pases.

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But how would we get caught? Are there cameras in chamonix lift system? Bearing in mind you can top up any old smart card online, I used to collect them to get the deposit refunded would be easy to accidentally top up one previously used by someone of the opposite sex.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Depends on the lift operator, the duration of the ticket.

For Dolomiti Superski, as an example, to top up an existing card (and indeed to buy a ticket), you have to specify Male/Female. What the card was previously used for means nothing. Doesn't matter if it was previously used for the opposite sex... it's what's currently programmed that matters. The printed text may not match, but then then printed text will obviously have old start date and validity, so easy to explain.

Other operators may not distinguish between male/female. There might not be cameras, but there are screens that flash up the photo stored in the system for those tickets where a photo was necessary (eg everything 8days+), and they also flash up concessions (often on the turnstile too).

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Hmmmm, thank for advice, but does anyone know if this is a specific issue in chamonix?

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8611, Many of the ski lift ops now take a still as you walk through the first gate of the day - they seem to compare at random, maybe on a hunch -after all it's their jobs and livelyhood they are protecting and are pretty experienced at sniffing out the bad 'uns.

It's a risk for you and a very old chestnut Snowheads debate. Whilst I understand your wish to save money the T&C's are very clear and the revenue from sales does to an extent get reinvested into the resort. This is my personal viewpoint and certainly if it was a season or a longer pass I'd make a report myself as (I think) you're effectively (considering) cheating the system, everyone else on the mountain and for that matter the majority your fellow Snowheads who buy passes. There is no free lunch especially if they want to ensure resorts stay open AKA http://protectourwinters.org/about = the Protect our Winters campaign .org etc. Embarassed

Some celebrate others good fortune when they manage to gain through petty fraud, however I look at the greater good, not the individual gain, which from a fundamental position is why I disagree so strongly with your proposition, especially as I love to ski and will strive to protect that opportunity for me, my kids and my grandchildren so they can continue to ski for future decades to come. It's not personal, but for the absence of doubt, if you do share, I hope you get caught.

After all it is free

8611, misusing a pass by 'sharing' when you are not supposted to sounds a bit like tax evasion to me - there are those who try and dodge the system and others that pay the correct price and follow the rules but land up paying a bit more because of the dodgers. I for one would advocate a good penalty for getting caught breaking the rules.

alti - dude, +1

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standyc, We skied the 3V's in January & got our lift passes from the TO, it had no names or details on it, he brought 12 of them to the chalet & we just picked them up. I would do exactly the same as you as I would only consider it wrong if you were both trying to use the pass together. As far as I can see you're buying a lift pass for 6 days skiing so why does it matter if you do 3 days each? Puzzled

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I fully agree with everything you've said and I know it's nothing personal. If it was a genuine local cooperative with the money being reinvested I wouldn't think can't it for a second, also if it was value for money I would immediately stump up, but it's companie de mont blanc, the lift pass is already prohibitive and having to pay extra to go up to the top of grand Montets for instance, in a lift system which doesn't seem to get much reinvestment and is quite dated in parts, is a little galling as it is. That lift system is trading on it's reputation to a large extent. You visit somewhere like ischgl and the difference is astonishing. But the queues at the bottom and mid stations of gm don't fill me with goodwill.

Now maybe I'm being unfair and I don't know enough about the companie or the cost and knock on effects of making the top more accessible to make these judgments. But my impression is that in a place like chamonix you are not getting value for money. It's a place where i've put several thousand euro into the local economy and will continue to do so. All I'm asking is that if my wife wishes to return to the slopes for two hours she doesn't have an additional 38 euro or something on top of an already ludicrously expensive activity, while I take the 8 month old in the hope of keeping her interested in th activity generally and not marginalize her altogether,forcing me to choose between my family and my passion when it comes to holidays and how I spend my cash. To be honest I wouldn't have known this wasn't allowed until reading a thread here.

But I do respect and indeed agree with the above opinions, I'm just not sure they apply to chamonix!

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8611, so it's bad to shoplift from the corner shop but OK to shoplift from Marks and Spencer because they're a big company, work on bigger profit margins and can afford it?

More or less Alti, yeah, but also factoring in the moral value of:-

- whether we should be able to do this anyway
- the fact that I wouldn't even have known it was wrong in the first place, and still doesn't strike me as being morally wrong in itself notwithstanding that it may be in the T&Cs
- the overall convenience of the situation
- whether the shop in question is actually ripping me off too
- whether the shop in question has a monopoly on a fantastic natural resource, albeit one which they have probably (somewhat) deservedly acquired through investment and hard work

Incidentally parents in this situation must represent a not inconsequential market share so I'm surprised they don't cater for this.

You know it makes sense.

8611, Pension funds, maybe yours, maybe your parents or perhaps your children one day may invest in a company that have phantom clients that by-pass the lift ticket process.

Ripping off = stealing (basically the same thing)

Buying from a shop at one price or another is a choice. If you steal from a shop, it's theft and the thief is stealing from the shop/owners/shareholders and ultimately jeopardising staff jobs if taken to its logical conclusion that the entire stock can be stolen ad-infinitum. For example I drove down to the local “one-stop” shop to buy a dozen Mars bars an hour ago. They were charging 69 pence per bar. I considered this a “rip-off”, however rather than just take the twelve bars of confectionery, without paying, even though they were IMHO over-priced, I drove another minute to Tesco’s and bought 3x4 packs for a £1 each. Same bars, same size and reasonably priced, again IMHO. If I'd taken the MArs bars would I have ripped the shop off, would it be theft, or indeed if I'd paid would I have been ripped off?

In truth Chamonix is no different from the “one stop” option versus the Austrian resort you are fond of frequenting. Your analysis is pretty simple. If YOU consider the price to be too high it’s OK to take what you need irrespective of the harm you may inflict upon others. Supposing some poor Austrian that’s been ripped off by a petrol station in Chamonix decides to appropriate your car whilst you’re skiing. His economic defence will be, “well it was a rip off guv, and I saw this car and the other guy can easily afford to lose it to me as I have a chip on my shoulder which is healed by not spending money” – It’s a zero sum game and what you take, someone somewhere is short-changed and poorer as a result of your actions.

Your argument becomes more ridiculous the harder you try to defend it. Sometimes the right answer is to admit your mistakes, ‘fess up and move on. Wallowing around in the immoral swamp of justifying theft for ski passes is an insult to those that simply must steal to feed and clothe their children, and to an extent your heritage. If you can afford get to Chamonix, buy/hire skis, etc then skiing a day less to maintain your integrity is a small price to pay, even if you feel ripped off afterwards. If not, go somewhere cheaper where you can afford to ski legitimately and perhaps set a better example as a father to your son.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I once was caught doing this at Meribel!

I was alone with my 3yr old daughter entering the Rhodos 1 bubble at Chaudanne. As my daughter was very small I had to carry her through the turnstile. However her pass beeped instead of mine. It was midday and we were the only people there, so the liftie noticed (from the beep or from his screen?) that it was a child entering. The liftie came over to investigate and asked to see my adult pass. Fair enough. I showed him mine, but when he put it into his computer it came up as registered to a woman. I explained I must have mixed it up with my wife's pass and he could see that 2 adult and 2 kids passes had been bought on the same transaction, so he half believed me. He was polite and understanding, but took it very seriously indeed. He could not check if the pass was mine because the passes had been bought by the chalet company under their name. He wanted to call the police, as I had committed an offence if he let me go he might never see me again!

Then a more senior guy turned up and took pity on me because I was with a small child. They agreed to let me leave as long as I promised to immediately bring back my pass or the receipt. At first they wanted to keep the child as "hostage", but they settled on keeping our passes and our skis while we walked up to our chalet.
If it hadn't been empty at the lift station he would never have spotted it in the first place. But beware.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Gordon Bennett, what a lot of sanctimonious twaddle.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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But obviously dodgy old school ski bum tactics such as dropping your pass from the chairlift so your buddy can follow you up - that's stealing and wrong, because you are both using the ski area at the same time.

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anarski, you would be perfectly correct where the T&Cs don't specify that they are non transferable

8611, don't get the logic. So I can go to Marks and Spencer and steal 20% of my shopping and they'd be OK with that as otherwise I will take all my custom to Tesco?

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8611,

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After all it is free

Was in westendoff last week, upgraded one day to ski another resort whilst my card and my sisters where being recoded they where swapped. Next day we where stopped as we had the wrong card. The guy explained certain barriers have cameras that put your photo on but also have facial recognition software. Big brother is watching. Don't know how good it is as with hat goggles etc not much to compare but could tell the difference between sexes.

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