 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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demos, I took a trip round Mont Blanc in a small plane once. Obviously, skiing had nothing to do with it, but I don't see why anyone would consider it any better (from an environmental point of view) than riding a helicopter to the top of a mountain. So, if I should desist from heli-skiing, I should desist from that also. But the fact that my trip was in the vicinity of Mt Blanc is entirely incidental to the environmental impact. By extension, I should never fly for pleasure in a private plane. And, by extension, neither should anyone else. Where does one stop? I only have so much money and so much time, so there is a limit to my nefarious activity!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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demos,
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Unless they're powering their PC by solar energy..." Does this mean that making adjustments is not enough? That it really is about either all or nothing? That unless you live by 19th century energy consumption standards, all comments about some other people over-consuming is just self-righteous.
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No, I'm trying to make a point, that point being that the argument that DavidGoldsmith and JohnnyH make does not hold up. They shouldn't argue to abolish one pass time when they quite clearly engage in pass times which are equally as destructive to the environment (due to the actual number of people participating in them and the frequency of participation).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Vipa, the failed plan to ski from the top of Mont Blanc was hardly a first! Hundreds of people have done it. Even me.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| demos, I took a trip round Mont Blanc in a small plane once. Obviously, skiing had nothing to do with it, but I don't see why anyone would consider it any better (from an environmental point of view) than riding a helicopter to the top of a mountain. So, if I should desist from heli-skiing, I should desist from that also. But the fact that my trip was in the vicinity of Mt Blanc is entirely incidental to the environmental impact. By extension, I should never fly for pleasure in a private plane. And, by extension, neither should anyone else. Where does one stop? I only have so much money and so much time, so there is a limit to my nefarious activity! |
I don't know where to draw the line, that's what we are debating. You realise though on basis of the previous discussions that that the small (propeller) plane is a lot more environmentally friendly than the smallest of the helicopters...
I am not the one who is advocating banning heliski. Not least because I still have not had a chance to experience it. However, this thread does make me think of these luxuries of life and how useless they are with an increasingly large potential to damage our environment. As the wealth of nations and people therefore grows, we do have to start to think what we can afford to do - not in terms of money but the impact on our surrounding. Otherwise, we will just outspend it all.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| If you tend to turn your TV/DVD off rather than leave it on standby or maybe car share or attempt other token gestures to 'save the planet', then heli-skiing is perhaps an indication of double standards, self indulgence and selfishness |
Hmmm, sounds like me. Not sure I completely agree with this - I guess it's up to everyone to decide which areas of their life they seek to cut back (or not). If you're someone who criticises others for leaving things on stand-by, using cars excessively etc and then you go heli-skiing, then I think your criticisms would apply. But then I would say that!
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| demos wrote: |
"A better example to whom? The Chinese workers on one of their 2400 new coal fired power stations?" Does that indicate that the more developed countries should do nothing and show no example so that the developing countries can do exactly the same stupid mistakes we have made?
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Last year, on a tv debate about this, a UK scientist revealed that if the UK gave up all use of cars and lorries, the reduction in global CO2 emissions would be negated in 83 days by the growth in Chinese industrial output. The growth of the rest of the world's output wasn't included.
I was asking a question, rather than raising a point.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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demos,
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I am not the one who is advocating banning heliski. Not least because I still have not had a chance to experience it. However, this thread does make me think of these luxuries of life and how useless they are with an increasingly large potential to damage our environment. As the wealth of nations and people therefore grows, we do have to start to think what we can afford to do - not in terms of money but the impact on our surrounding. Otherwise, we will just outspend it all.
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Yes, I agree with you. However, there are allowances I make (compost bin, recycle everything - have done for donkeys years, use re-usable bags - also done for donkeys years) but there are also indulgences I make (drive a 4X4, love it, fit the kids in, loads of space for shopping, if I go to the tip (sorry...Community Recycling Centre) I can do it in one trip instead of two etc). I feel we all need to be aware of the impact we make on our environment and we need to reduce, re-use and recycle. BUT, I would not come over all self righteous like DG and JH have by demanding the banning of one certain activity when there are plenty of other persuits practiced for the mere reward of pleasure.
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Lovelock's (he of Gaia fame) view of the future:-
"Do you think we will survive?
I'm an optimistic pessimist. I think it's wrong to assume we'll survive 2 °C of warming: there are already too many people on Earth. At 4 °C we could not survive with even one-tenth of our current population. The reason is we would not find enough food, unless we synthesised it. Because of this, the cull during this century is going to be huge, up to 90 per cent. The number of people remaining at the end of the century will probably be a billion or less. It has happened before: between the ice ages there were bottlenecks when there were only 2000 people left. It's happening again.
I don't think humans react fast enough or are clever enough to handle what's coming up. Kyoto was 11 years ago. Virtually nothing's been done except endless talk and meetings."
From http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126921.500-one-last-chance-to-save-mankind.html
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| demos wrote: |
| I don't know where to draw the line, that's what we are debating. You realise though on basis of the previous discussions that that the small (propeller) plane is a lot more environmentally friendly than the smallest of the helicopters... |
Sure ... but I expect that my flight was a lot longer than a typical helicopter uplift (in the Alps, anyway). 
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| I am not the one who is advocating banning heliski. Not least because I still have not had a chance to experience it. However, this thread does make me think of these luxuries of life and how useless they are with an increasingly large potential to damage our environment. As the wealth of nations and people therefore grows, we do have to start to think what we can afford to do - not in terms of money but the impact on our surrounding. Otherwise, we will just outspend it all. |
That's perfectly reasonable - but I think the environmental impact of things that we do, individually and in total, is routinely exaggerated.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Great programme, heli-skiing sounds wonderful, nearly did it once but weather closed in and called it off. Now have renewed vigour to give it a go at the next opportunity. Thanks for the reminder.
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masmith,
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You know it makes sense.
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| stevomcd wrote: |
| Vipa, the failed plan to ski from the top of Mont Blanc was hardly a first! Hundreds of people have done it. Even me. |
My missunderstanding, it was a Bell first and (apparently) a lifelong ambition! OK maybe there isn't a pattern developing! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Yoda wrote: |
I don't think humans react fast enough or are clever enough to handle what's coming up. Kyoto was 11 years ago. Virtually nothing's been done except endless talk and meetings."
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That's not true. We've put loads of taxes in place too.
We haven't spent any of that tax revenue on anything that would improve the planet and we aren't taxing people enough to discourage them from doing things that are damaging, but HMG are raising lots and lots of extra money from the climate change mantra.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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Vipa wrote:
coming down requires a skill set that probably a good 50-75% of us here have, going up is a whole different ball game!
that is where you are wrong and it is one of the dangers of helisking. The heliskier is dumped into a high mountain environment of which he understands very little.
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I think this is a really important point. There is an understanding of the (mountain) environment which many (somewhat arrogant and selfish) skiers appear not only to lack but also appear to not want to engage with in case it spoils their fun. |
Why do you need to understand everything about the mountain environment? Isn't that what your guide is being paid to do? The "punter's" lack of gnarly mountain knowledge might well make them potentially vulnerable, but it's a managed risk they have paid to mitigate. For nearly all of them it's a once in a lifetime thrill, so they're very unlikely to be mountain experts. The only arrogance I can see is in your post. Are you really that self-righteous? Are these heli-skiers you speak of really arrogant, selfish etc or simply having the time of their lives?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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. . . it should at least make me think about whether or not it is what mountain sports should be about.
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That's my point most people on hear just don't want to think about it too much in case it spoils their fun.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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johnnyh,
here?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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alan empty, we all perhaps make 'token' sacrifices to do our little bit in saving the planet, but when the sacrifice relates to, say, heli-skiing, then it is a different ball game. We convince ourselves that an odd flight means nothing in the big picture of things, (afler all the Chinese are building loads of coal fired power stations) but if everyone thought the opposite and decided not to take that heli-ride to satisfy our sliding needs, or that pleasure flight over the alps, or that gas guzzling 4 x 4, then maybe it might make a big collective difference.
For the record I quite fancy a heli skiing trip  , but maybe I should start thinking in a different way on all such issues 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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johnnyh,
Sorry, couldn't resist, just having a bit of fun without the Global implications 
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and oh yes, i really enjoyed the escapism of the prog, and lets face it, who is going to copy what they did on the show ? plus there was an informative angle to it regarding safety etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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once in a lifetime thrill
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Exactly: their lifetime. Not a lot of consideration for the impact on the planet in their actions.
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The only arrogance I can see is in your post. Are you really that self-righteous?
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Yes; when I am right. Which in this case I am. Are you really that rude to presume you know anything about me?
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the environmental impact of things that we do, individually and in total, is routinely exaggerated.
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. . . or routinely ignored as it isn't a very nice thing to consider its impact.
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They shouldn't argue to abolish one pass time when they quite clearly engage in pass times which are equally as destructive to the environment
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Lame argument, really. As others have said two wrongs do not make the situation right. You cannot say that because you use a computer (or even own a light bulb?) that you therefore forefitt any right to a position on Climate change. That is just a bit of a daft comparison from you HH. Heli-skiing as demos, has pointed out has a massive CO2 impact relative to other activities, especially running a laptop.
I'm not advocating a ban (on heli-skiing - although as we've established it's higher on the scale than quite a few other things), I'm saying that responsible behaviour is what's needed and consideration should be made in all things we do and all choices we make. It's very easy to say that unless you do everything in your life to be totally green then it's not worth doing anything at all. The trouble is that view gets you nowhere and it tends to allow most people off the hook which is why many people use it. If you do a little, then that's good. Probably more good for you than it is for the planet, but it's still good. Why would you want to over consume, to waste, to burn excess fossil fuels if you don't need to. What sort of person would it make you if you did that? It's not hard to think of the scenarios and the types of people that do exactly that. If you want to be one of them, I'd like to say fine, get on with it. But the trouble is it's my planet too, and my children's (and yours) future your gambling with, so it's kind of important.
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Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 3-02-09 18:13; edited 1 time in total
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...
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Tue 3-02-09 18:11; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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...
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GreyCat, you may believe whatever you want, and I would defend your right to believe it no matter how stupid it makes you look.
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You know it makes sense.
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rayscoops, yeah you may be right - it's obviously easy to sacrifice certain things (particularly if it saves you money at the same time). I guess if I thought it was going to be more than a once-in-a-lifetime event (ok, maybe twice  ) then I may worry some more. But...most people don't ski, of those who do most won't ever heliski, of those who get a chance most won't do it very often (or even more than once in many cases?). It just doesn't seem like something worth worrying too much about, but there's probably at least another 5 pages left in the thread!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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alan empty, just the 5, I've already managed my 400th post, I was hoping for at least double figures.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
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| Are you really that self-righteous? |
Yes; when I am right. Which in this case I am. Are you really that rude to presume you know anything about me? |
Right about what? Please give a precise proposition that we can agree or disagree with. And not about what's in others' minds please - you've done a lot of that already, yet castigate others for the same crime. And nothing woolly about "failure to engage" either, please.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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[quote="johnnyh"]
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I'm not advocating a ban (on heli-skiing - although as we've established it's higher on the scale than quite a few other things), - |
No... it's lower on the scale than most other things... it's cumulative total impact taken as a percentage of all things that have an impact is incredibly almost insignificantly small (I say almost as nothing is truly insignificant)
If taken individually then yes, helicopters are more carbon costly than say driving a car but then for every 1 heli-skiing trip there will be, what, 20 million car journeys world wide, probably more. So we have to look at the true impact of something as a whole. The space shuttle probably has the biggest short term carbon footprint on the planet but as there are only a handfull of launches a year the overall impact will be very, very low.
Driving your car to work on your own has a massive impact when looked at as a total and cumulative act. Car sharing should be far higher on the oriority list than banning heli-skiing..... for example
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| No, heli-skiing is about the skiing not the heli ride therefore you can achieve this as DG and others have said via skins and a bit of effort. |
A pretty minor point but I one I forgot to address before. Johnny, I completely disagree that it's not about the heli ride. For me that was possibly the best bit - cruising over the snow-capped peaks was an unforgettable experience. Absolutely stunning.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It always makes me laugh at the fact that the masses always decide that the best way to achieve something is to attack something that doesn't apply to them..... You can bet your ass that if the anti-heli lobby here were heli-skiers they'd keep thier mouths shut!
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Same old|same|old I know that is a similar posting to the last - but I loved some of the replies in epic  .
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| I am continually amazed that there are certain segments of society that will never rest until virtually every movement made by man has been regulated to their satisfaction. |
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Vipa, your argument is a tautology, if you are anti-heli you wouldn't be a heli skier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So not a tautology then. A contradiction in terms, perhaps.
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FAQ
