 Poster: A snowHead
|
Skiing has a governing body - the International Ski Federation (FIS) - which is concerned not only with ski racing. The FIS has safety codes, mountain management codes and environmental codes which apply to recreational skiing too.
The French have banned heli-skiing for over three decades to protect the mountain environment. The Swiss, highly protective of the mountain environment, continue to permit heli-skiing at some locations. Surprisingly these include nationally-important summits like the Monte Rosa above Zermatt. The Austrians are, I believe, more restrictive.
Heli-skiing enjoys its freedoms in the Canadian wilderness, and there's a growing demand for it on the highest mountains of all - the Himalayas. But the higher the helicopters fly the more fuel is needed to overcome the thin air, so the greater the pollution.
This is what the FIS say about skiing and the environment [extracted from their 'Mainau Manifesto' of 1994]:
| Quote: |
| The FIS recognizes the ethical obligation to consider all aspects concerning ski sport as serious questions and is determined to prevent or reduce above all the posible negative repercussions on nature and the environment caused by skiing |
Given that 'determination' it seems inappropriate that the FIS is silent on heli-skiing, because the environmental impact per skier is very significant. Where should this 'determination to prevent or reduce' begin?
Is it time for the FIS to work towards an international outlawing of heli-skiing?
[Reference: Mainau Manifesto]
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
No.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Not untill I get to do it. 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
David Goldsmith, phew, someone focused on the most important issues first. Tax flights and ban heliskiing.
Let's not worry about...
Electricity consumed by uplifts in general. I mean, why stop at heli skiing? Let's just ban lift served skiing altogether. Then we'd even save on the energy, paper and hot air consumed by the FIS. We wouldn't need one!
* America's demand for petroleum - I mean, you're just not a real man without a V8
* Global electricity consumption
* Ship breaking in India
to name a few things that are rather worse for the environment than heliskiing
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
I would have to conduct a fact finding mission ... or two ... or three ... in different parts of the globe, naturally.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Can we leave this until the 20th August.
What about banning ski presses, that use electricity produced with siginificant carbon debt?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
What about the possibility that Canadian helis are used in the off season to fly workers into forest camps for tree planting?
I always thought the Euro bans were to protect wildlife rather then speciifcally preventing pollution much like the bans on tree skiing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
No. On the larger scale of things emissions from Heli-skiing are small. However there may depending on the kind of operation, intensity and sensitivity of a given mountain environment be good reasons for restricting such operations in specfic locations or countries. People also attack long haul flights. Long haul flights are not the problem, for such a journey flight is the only practicable solution at present, the problem is short haul flights, and particularly very short domestic flights, they are uneccessary. This will not go down well on this forum, but aviation fuel needs to be taxed, and low cost airlines should be taxed out of the sky IMHO.
Here in the UK the government makes a claim that high fuel duty on petrol is a "green" tax. The absurdity of the governments claim is surely shown by the fact a Glasgow skier can fly to the Alps for a weekend for less than it costs to fill up a car to drive to CairnGorm.... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Is heli-skiing legal in Scotland? It was rumoured that one of the developers of Aviemore in the early 1960s (Lord Fraser?) used to be flown up to the summit. But if someone wanted a heli flight to a classic-but-inaccessible ski hill like Beinn a'Bhuird, next winter, would that be against the law?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Wed 2-08-06 12:57; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
|
fatbob, that's why the French ban them. It's not a ban on flying helis, it's a ban on landing them up mountains.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Winterhighland wrote: |
...People also attack long haul flights. Long haul flights are not the problem, for such a journey flight is the only practicable solution at present, the problem is short haul flights, and particularly very short domestic flights, they are uneccessary. This will not go down well on this forum, but aviation fuel needs to be taxed, and low cost airlines should be taxed out of the sky IMHO.
Here in the UK the government makes a claim that high fuel duty on petrol is a "green" tax. The absurdity of the governments claim is surely shown by the fact a Glasgow skier can fly to the Alps for a weekend for less than it costs to fill up a car to drive to CairnGorm.... |
How should UK skiers who don't live close to an international rail terminal get to their chosen ski resort? If aviation fuel tax was increased to discourage short-haul flights, wouldn't it make long-haul so expensive that (once again) it becomes the preserve of the wealthy? Or would you advocate increasing short-haul taxes, but not long-haul? Surely that would just encourage more people to fly long-haul, increasing their carbon usage compared to a European holiday?
I would be happy to see rail travel become cheaper than shorthaul air fares, but as I'm about 45 minutes from Waterloo International that's not a big surprise. If I lived more than a couple of hours away from London I guess I'd be unhappy to see aviation taxes rise even further. Perhaps a more sensible approach is to reduce taxes on rail fares and to subsidise the cost of international rail travel to stations further north and west of London?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian,
I thought the French banned them in response to a fuel crisis and has kept it in place ever since with environmental iisues.
But ban heli-skiing altogether.? I'd say a very selfish NO
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
JT, davidof can put us right ....
| pistehors wrote: |
A bit of history concerning the ban in France. The French president, Valerie Giscard skied Mont Blanc after being dropped by 'copter, a demonstration awaited him at the bottom. He appreciated the arguments and heli-skiing was banned on Mont Blanc. For the same reasons the first Mitterand government generalised this to the whole of France except for work or rescue. Heli-skiing and tourist flights are banned in France for the reason that they disturb the environment and cause a great deal of noise in relation to the number of people who can benefit from this activity. This is the French idea of the interet general - the common good if you like, takes precedence over individual freedom.
|
http://pistehors.com/backcountry/wiki/Articles/Heliskiing
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
brian,
Its in the back of my mind somewwhere..can't recall where I got it.....but that sounds like Mitterand to a tee
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Well David Goldsmith, from the tone of your opening post in this thread you obviously think it should be.
In the same spirit I assume you won't be using a short haul flight to go on any holiday in the future.
|
|
|
|
|
|
brian
brian
Guest
|
rungsp, I don't think DG's been on a short haul flight anywhere since the late 70s ? Not that he would tell us about for free anyway 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
NO.
Lets just ban flights to Zurich,Geneva,Milan.Munich,Denver etc 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
rungsp, for what it's worth I've undertaken not to take any more flights in relation to ski trips, long or short. See you on the train!
This thread's about whether the FIS should use its influence to stop heli-skiing, which is not quite the same issue.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
How should UK skiers who don't live close to an international rail terminal get to their chosen ski resort? If aviation fuel tax was increased to discourage short-haul flights, wouldn't it make long-haul so expensive that (once again) it becomes the preserve of the wealthy? Or would you advocate increasing short-haul taxes, but not long-haul? |
The primary target of my post was Domestic flights, other than flights to Islands there is really very little good justification for the use of such a pollution causing mode of transport for journey's of the length of domestic journeys within European Countries. Even with our slow main line rail-network the time advantage of flying from Edinburgh to London is questionable when you consider check-in times, time waiting for luggage, time to transit from city to airport etc.
Allowing every growing air traffic though is easy compared to the political will required to really get to grips with the UK's crumbling transport network as planes don't need infrastructure once airborne for getting from A to B.
A 200mph running trans UK highspeed rail network would make domestic air-travel an un-attractive proposistion. Much is also made of the need for more and more housing despite space and water issues in the SE, a high speed rail network would solve such issues too by spreading demand further afield.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| rungsp, for what it's worth I've undertaken not to take any more flights in relation to ski trips, long or short. See you on the train! |
David Goldsmith, Im bemused. did you swim?
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| ....Of the US resorts I've skied, Snowbird and Alta were the finest ... |
[Edited to include first quote]
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 2-08-06 18:24; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
Winterhighland, I tend to agree, although I think you gloss over the worst aspect of city centre-to-city centre train travel: getting into/out of the city centres! It's OK if you live or work within easy reach of the main train stations, but for me it is very much easier to get to my nearby airports, and with electronic check-in and ticketing plus increased cabin baggage allowance the overall journey time is not that much more than the actual flying time.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Nick. I think I explained elsewhere that I switched from air to rail about 3 years ago. That particular trip to Utah was about 28 years ago!
-------
For anyone interested: a similar thread's been initiated on Epicski.com to see what people think about the FIS maybe opposing heli-skiing on the other side of the Atlantic (not that we don't have US/Canadian buddies here):
http://forums.epicski.com/showthread.php?p=531749&posted=1#post531749
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| For anyone interested: a similar thread's been initiated on Epicski.com to see what people think about the FIS maybe opposing heli-skiing on the other side of the Atlantic |
I think it would be more accurate to say that you have initiated a similar thread over at Epic, with even less support for your suggestion than here on snowHeads.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
|
That's true, Rob. Maybe the countries really feeling the heat (literally) will take individual national action to outlaw heli-skiing within their own borders. The Swiss must be pretty close to it - there's been some fairly strong lobbying from interested groups.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
rob@rar.org.uk, Winterhighland,
When you consider the number of persons the 'snow train' carries compared to an 'average' air craft, and the fact that the train causes a LOT less polution than a plane then i guess the 'environmentally responsible' solution is to opt for the train every time. 
however, given the more 'hedonistic' approach that I live on 30 mins from two airports, both of which offer cut price flights to the snow (and sun!) it means I can be on piste in the time it would take me to journey to Waterloo international for a fraction of the cost.
I save time, i save money, unfortunately i don't save the environment !!
Heliskiing is the creme de la creme of the hedonistic approach to skiing, but unfortunately its also a great buzz.
I know Canada does cat skiing, which must be a bit more environmentally sound, or I suppose you could take the 'old school' approach and hike up, ski on your back, and REALLY EARN that long, quiet, exillerating cruise down through the powder, making your own tracks, not a care in the world {goes all glassy eyed}
Now wheres that Canada Off Piste brochure ? 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
Definately not. The amount of pressure put on people to stop doing pretty much anything at all is all too much - people need some excitement. The whole idea of heli-skiing sounds utterly fabulous fun, why deny people that? I think the environmental impact is negligible really. Planting these great big ski lifts is hardly great for the environment (chopping down all the trees for the lifts to go up etc) - but I am concerned? Not particularly - again its small when compared to the greater scheme of things.
Life is about living in my view - and I do my bit for the environment all year - to help compensate for those few weeks in the year that I do something that may harm the environment.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Going seriously off-topic but on my comments about Rail vs Air transport for domestic travel I dug this out of a Department for Transport document on High Speed Rail:
Food for thought?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
Winterhighland, Do you have an old blue nylon anorack, a tartan thermos flask and a tendancy to note train numbers in a small WHSmith book ?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Is heli-skiing legal in Scotland? It was rumoured that one of the developers of Aviemore in the early 1960s (Lord Fraser?) used to be flown up to the summit. But if someone wanted a heli flight to a classic-but-inaccessible ski hill like Beinn a'Bhuird, next winter, would that be against the law? |
I don't quite no the law on this, but there is at least a de-facto ban on helicopters landing in the Cairngorms except for emergency/rescue reasons. So your heli-skiing to Beinn a Bhuird is a no go. Somewhere like Ben More Assynt though might be another story, I'm not sure. Indeed a Survey which included monitoring snow lie and dropping of ski tourers by chopper in the 70s flagged up several mountains for snowsports development, three of them were Aonach Mor, Ben Wyvis and Ben More Assynt. Aonach Mor was subsquently developed, Wyvis was sunk by local government re-organisation in the early 90s and Ben More is just in the absolute middle of nowhere!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Odin wrote: |
| Winterhighland, Do you have an old blue nylon anorack, a tartan thermos flask and a tendancy to note train numbers in a small WHSmith book ? |
Not any more, got a bit boring on CairnGorm... 1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2,1,2 ..... 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| That's true, Rob. Maybe the countries really feeling the heat (literally) will take individual national action to outlaw heli-skiing within their own borders. The Swiss must be pretty close to it - there's been some fairly strong lobbying from interested groups. |
I think any rationale scientific examination of the facts will conclude that the carbon footprint of heli-skiing is utterly irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. If there are battles to be fought to reduce or end certain well-loved activities in the interests of mitigating climate change, let us at least pick on activities which if stopped will make a difference other than making certain climate-change zealots feel good about themselves.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
Can you think of a more fuel-thirsty and CO2-polluting sport than heli-skiing?
In what sense is it "irrelevant"? It's regarded as the pinnacle of indulgence in skiing.
Are you suggesting that we require others to clean up the atmosphere for our future snow-security?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Nick. I think I explained elsewhere that I switched from air to rail about 3 years ago. That particular trip to Utah was about 28 years ago! |
You have also stated that nuclear power is 'unacceptable'. That being the case (in your mind) how are you able to travel on trains powered by nuclear generated electricity?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Can you think of a more fuel-thirsty and CO2-polluting sport than heli-skiing? |
Yes, air racing and top fuel drag racing.
And let's not forget this demonstration sport:
http://home.comcast.net/~fred7/jets05.html
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 2-08-06 20:06; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
Can you think of a more fuel-thirsty and CO2-polluting sport than heli-skiing?
In what sense is it "irrelevant"? It's regarded as the pinnacle of indulgence in skiing.
Are you suggesting that we require others to clean up the atmosphere for our future snow-security? |
Irrelevant in the sense that because of the very small numbers who "indulge" in heli-skiing the total amount of carbon emitted is very much less than (I'd hazard a guess) the carbon emitted by transporting people to ski resorts by train. If the FIS is going to invest the political capital in ending the some people's livelihoods and killing a particular branch of our sport then I would expect a much better rate of return in terms of carbon saved. As it is, banning heli-skiing smacks more of retribution from environmental zealots than it does of sensible carbon budgeting.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
rob@rar.org.uk, very well argued.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Can you think of a more fuel-thirsty and CO2-polluting sport than heli-skiing? |
Playing devils advocate here, but what if the Helicopter was fuelled by bio-fuels?
As for flights, a plane wastes a huge amount of energy just not falling out of the sky. Airships on the other hand only use fuel for propulsion in direction of travel.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
