 Poster: A snowHead
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Last night, viewers of the new BBC snowshow High Altitude were treated to more 'high attitude' from its presenters - Graham Bell and Ed Leigh - to nipping up high peaks in choppers in order to ski down them. They didn't actually argue the case for this decadent concept in ski lifts - they just did it for a bit of sexy TV. Zermatt and The Remarkables (New Zealand) were the chosen locations, presumably because there were handy chopper pads nearby.
High Altitude - a pale imitation of Top Gear and its own gratuitous gas-guzzling (at least Top Gear benefits from high wit and a trio of bright personalities) - seems to think that air pollution ain't an issue, despite the overwhelming evidence that it is destroying our sport, melting our glaciers and threatening the lives of millions across the globe. Oh no - we should just carry on glorifying the most expensive 'aspiration' for gold-card skiers.
What a waste of air time, money and talent.
These dinosaurs should be sacked and replaced with ski presenters who actually convey some soul, personality and spirit about what skiing is, where it came from, and what its future might promise. There's nothing unchallenging about skinning up a 4000m peak.
There's nothing boring about skiing that doesn't involve helicopters.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 2-02-09 11:50; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Haven't seen this yet it's on my sky+ sounds good though 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is it not just skiing's equivalent of Top Gear's reviews of the Veyron? Who makes up the trio of bright personalities on TG?
Heli-skiing's cool. Stick with t-bar, David.
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David Goldsmith, repeating a mantra doesn't make it true. I've tried to engage you in debate on the subject of climate change several times after similar preaching, but your concept of a debate is that of a spoilt three-year-old.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I have to say I agree generally with your point. I felt a bit uncomforatble watching last night's show. If it's supposed to be a show for people who appreciate mountains then I don't really see how heli-skiing fits in apart from the sheer cost which most BBC viewers will be unable to ever afford. However it's a lot more complex than that as the majority of ski resorts rely on helicopters to perform a lot of the transport to mountains huts and assistance in the lift maintenance that occurs so just by skiing in a normal resort one can argue that we are all contributing to the increase in helicopter activity.
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laundryman, leave it out.
Here's an up-to-date report on the state of the glaciers, from Bloomberg (reporting the World Glacier Monitoring Service):
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601124&sid=ajCBthQzAiU4&refer=home
Whether skiing - as a community and an industry - wishes to accept the evidence of scientific bodies like this or the United Nations' IPCC is up to skiing. It's then up to skiing to do something about it.
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> High Altitude ... seems to think that air pollution ain't an issue, despite the overwhelming evidence that it is destroying our sport, melting our glaciers and threatening the lives of millions across the globe.
The argument about heliskiing isn't about about air pollution but noise pollution. A few helicopter trips isn't going to make a big difference in the global scheme of energy wastage but constant helicopter and light aircraft flights in the mountains are a real annoyance for a large number of people for the pleasure of a few. I note that Pralognan sur Vanoise has recently asked the Savoie prefet to enforce the law regarding heliski pickups from Courchevel so maybe we are seeing some movement in the right direction.
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Yes, these machines make a hell of a din while they spew their noxious gases.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Goldsmith, you'll note that Alpine glaciers have been retreating since about 1850, at the end of the Dalton minimum of reduced solar activity, long before any significant increase in CO2 concentrations. They contain a lot of "memory", so they reflect the weather decades ago, as much as today's. Meanwhile, the mean surface temperature of the globe hasn't really gone anywhere in the last 10 years as CO2 concentrations have increased apace.
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There is something quite worrying with the underlying snobbery attached to the ski industry in general, be it in relation to the expense of jumping in a helicoptor to go skiing or in relation to the implied 'better than you' because some one 'skins up' or is into 'back country'.
To take DG's idea to the extreme, only those peeps who live near ski resorts perhap should ski, and Brits should not be heading to the Alps unless they cycle there  maybe heliskiing is an eco=friendly way to get to the mountain (due to the expense it would only be a tiny number who could afford it) in comparison with the infrastructure that is need to develop and run a ski resort.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| To take DG's idea to the extreme ... |
Why bother - it's just an old debating wheeze. Do you think there's a valid case for the outlawing of heli-skiing?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| David Goldsmith wrote: |
| Do you think there's a valid case for the outlawing of heli-skiing? |
No
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David Goldsmith, It is TV. It is for entertainment rather than to endorse heliskiing.
It does not say other types of skiing is boring. You make that link.
In terms of cost, it is a snip compared to what they waste on Jonathan Ross and suchlike.
Having said that, I do not watch Ski Sunday much. I had no real interest in racing but liked to see resorts I had been to and what snow conditions were like.
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You know it makes sense.
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TV is very damaging to the ecology of our planet. Imagine the carbon footprint of a TV satellite.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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David Goldsmith, there is more of a valid case for outlawing ski resorts entirely or maybe the large number of snow ploughs that run all night or snow cannons for that matter imho, they do much more damage than a few choppers. The problem is that human nature is such that we only shout about outlawing things that do not impinge upon our own enjoyment of something, but yes heli-skiing seems an uneccesary intrusion in to nature, both from a sound and pollution point of view
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Poster: A snowHead
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One of the most absurd aspects of last night's show was the fact that these clowns used a helicopter to secure a rope from the peak they were standing on to the adjacent peak ... to perform a 'Tyrolean traverse'. A completely pointless exercise, since the chopper could have dropped them both on the peak they actually wished to ski from! The rope was, of course, just long enough to test the arm strength of Graham and Ed as they hauled themselves across, but you just knew the heli would rescue them in the event they couldn't manage it.
The recently-released documentary movie 'Man on Wire' - in which the astonishing tightrope walker Philippe Petit smuggled a rope up the World Trade Centre (R.I.P.) in New York to span the 'twin towers' and walk from one to the other - was ten times more adventurous and exciting. This was a man genuinely pitting his fate against his wits.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
This was a man genuinely pitting his fate against his wits.
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An interesting concept.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Nickski wrote: |
| Quote: |
This was a man genuinely pitting his fate against his wits.
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An interesting concept. |
brings back fond memories of the EOSB
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If they just did what the average skier did - say pootle around a few blue and red runs then a nice lunch on a sunny terrace it would hardly make for decent TV. Equally watching people skinning is a tad dull, theres a reason its not a major feature of ski porn.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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David Goldsmith,
I just want to point out the IPCC is not a scientific body. It is a political body.
laundryman, Dont "leave it out" Science is based on skepticism not religious mantra.
Only with balanced debate and good science will be have a better understanding of the environment, climate and our effect on it.
Anyone who thinks its "too late" needs to look out the window this morning (if in UK).
Tux
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Those prsenters should be banned. They're all over the race segment as well, just glad I've got eurosport.
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Aside from the global warming issue I thought the Tirolyan traverse was pointless I thought the whole Jodi Kidd thing other than showing the dangers related to off piste skiing was pointless and I just dont think GB has the personality for this kind of TV. His race analysis is awsome and spot on but I really think the High alltitude show is missing a trick here by being over flashy and pointless
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| Quote: |
Equally watching people skinning is a tad dull, theres a reason its not a major feature of ski porn.
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Watching people skinning is a bit dull but I'd bee much more impressed if it showed a minute of them skinning and then skiing the same peaks as they were going to. However since skiing peaks like that is almost invariably filmed fromg a helicopter it makes an even more neglible difference to climate change whether the skiers get up by themselves or are dropped by the heli.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Do you think there's a valid case for the outlawing of heli-skiing?
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No... I like to do it if finances allow but would also accept a ban and be prepared to walk to those places if need be and the case was proven. I'd be more impressed if resorts stopped building new lifts and cut down on grooming personally
AIUI..France's ban is down to an age-old oil price theme that has never been reversed from the 70's.
I haven't seen the programme but my general feeling is the above.
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The most worrying thing i took from last nights show is that Jodie Kidd thought that if she's caught in an avalanche that she's going to be trapped in a nice wee cozy hole with room for a camera and to breath and move her arms and legs around...
that was a poor poor piece of mis-guidance.
What they should have done was stuff her mouth full of snow then collapse the hole on top of her then let the dog try and find her...
She was also way out of her depth skiing wise as well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I'm always amazed at the amount of Skiers who dismiss global warming.
I think if its a choice between Laundryman and tens of thousands of scientists, I think I will go with the scientists.
Mmm align myself with Creationists and the DUP or extremely well educated and qualified people who have spent a lifetime looking at climate data.....
As for heliskiing - ban it - its anti-social if people want to reach the top of a non lift linked peak or route - buy some skins, a map, do an avalanche course and off you go.
Helicopters in resorts are the alpine equivialant of jet skis by the beach.
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Just my 2 penneth worth... Heli Skiing is a very exciting concept. The ultimate goal of a very large proportion of skiers is to ski first tracks in deep powder if only it was affordable and/or the skier could actually ski those lines.... The fastest way to achieve that is via a helicopter unless you happen to live in the back country and own a ski-do or two or even, go cat-skiing (much slower and less glamorous though!)
If we are to take DG's feelings towards using heli skiing to give a tv program the adrenalin base it purports to offer then we need to look far further afield... Should the hollywood film industry be shut down for the same reason? Maybe James Bond should drive a Toyota Prius? Should Ferraris and Aston Martins be banned just because only the rich can afford them?? the list is inexhaustible. Remember DG, the BBC will only fund such frivolities if they get the viewers, take Top Gear as an example, 90% of thier shows are dedicated to machines way out of the reach of 99% of the poulation but rhe ratings are huge..... that's because we love to see what we could have... if only we were millionaires....... Watching celebs on TV heli-skiing in Newzealand or free-falling down the north face of the Eiger is as close to that kind of adrenaline rush most of us will ever get.... And... if you want something more sedate and 'green' watch the nordic skiing on Eurosport.... Oh... er... hang on.... maybe that should be banned.... think of the carbon footprint getting the tv crews up there! Without aspiration man is nothing!
The Tyrolean traverse was done because it had never been done before, just as the (failed) plan to ski from the summit of Mont Blanc in last weeks show was a first... Hmmm.. a pattern developing here.... wonder what they will try to do as a first next week?
Let's face it, all they are trying to do is bring the excitement of the ski/board movie to the masses. Most of joe public wouldn't go out and buy Warren Miller dvds so if this produces a few arm-chair extreme mountain adventure fans then great, more publicity for our beloved playground! 
What did annoy (more like really p**s me off) about last nights show was that neither the producers or the presenters had any right whatsoever to take a skier into the back country who was not capable of skiing the terrain safely. It was apparent from her first (snowplough sitting on a toilet seat in knee deep powder) turns that she was not of a sufficient standard to be there.... They had to start giving her instruction half way down the hill FFS. You'd think they would have checked her skiing credentials before they set off on a mission like that..... absolutely appaling... they were putting lives at risk! hers, thiers and the rescue services! At least on Top Gear the guest presenter spends a day training with The Stigg before being let loose on the track!
As far as global warming is concerned, there is plenty of scientific evidence to suggest thet the planet goes through warm and cool cycles and whilst I have no doubt whatsoever that the human poulation is responsible for speeding the cycle up over the last 100 years or so, I am still of the opinion that we are in part of that natural cycle. Mybe what we should do is reduce the poulation back to a level that is sustainable by the planet, that figure is somewhere around 800 million which was the total human global poulation just 250 years ago, the other 6 billion have sprung up since! So... let's put the odd helicopter flight to one side and try to work out how we are going to either a) feed and water the soon to be 9 billion people on the planet or b) reduce the poulation by 90% (throw them out of helicopters without parachutes perhaps.) And I'm sorry but in the face of issues of such magnitude, the speed the Mer De Glace is receding is of little importance!
Rant over 
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You know it makes sense.
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killian, there are significant disputes going on between eminent scientists regarding climate change. I know it's put about that there is a "scientific consensus", but it's patently not true.
Which of the specific statements that I have made do you not agree with? I've tried to confine myself to historical facts, because I don't know how the climate will evolve. However I believe that many predictions are made with an apparent confidence that cannot be justified scientifically - such as in David Goldsmith's opening post.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I was appalled when I heard that last year's Ski Sunday format would take the 'good bits' (i.e. the travels section) and whack it into a seperate show at 10pm. However, although it still doesn't quite meet the requried criteria as far as my snowboarding fix goes, as a programme, High Altitude is a good bit of TV I think.
Yes, it's aping Top Gear and doesn't quite capture what TG is all about – blokes having a laugh with mad toys and stunts – but even TG is losing its sparkle this season and isn't to everyone's liking. Anyway, what HA is doing is promoting the idea of life in the mountains as something anyone can become involved in.
Okay, taking a tirolean traverse in NZ or doing heli drops in Zermatt aren't exactly 'everyman' activites, but isn't that what TV is all about – seeing things that you wouldn't normally see? We watch enough ski racing, something that few of us will do, but don't complain - why compain about what HA is trying to achieve? There's no way on earth I'll ever get to NZ or do a heli-drop – the prices are just way out of my league – but it's interesting to see what it feels like and I think Leigh and Bell do a very good job of hosting the show. They're sportsmen afterall, not 'trained' TV presenters. I respect Bell because he's good with that handycam and Ed Leigh... well, anyone who is 3-times UK Air Guitar Champion gets my vote!! 
This is one of very few shows available to every license payer that shows mountain life. I'm all for it, albeit with more boarding in it, and at least it's representing wintersports on mainstream TV and in a good way. Robson Grene's fishing show on Five was a debacle and did nothing to help that sport – I think HA is at least interesting to non-skiers/boarders. If you want more snow TV then get Rush HD or Extreme Sports on SKY.
Yes, the whole environmental aspect of heli skiing was passed over and the avalanche 'training' was interesting to a degree but I doubt realistic. Jodie Kidd looked rusty and probably wasn't the best candidate for the off-piste session. However, for most people who haven' got an inkling about skiing, seeing an avalnche go off just yards from thir position will have been interesting.
I doubt on the environmental front that many of us can (or should) actually feel proud deep down. We all drive to airports, fly to our destinations and then drive to resort, and we all have skis and boards that no doubt use a whole host of environmentally unsound materials. Being concious of the effects of global warning and actually being environmentally pro-active are two totally different things.
Like fatbob says, watching someone go down a slope isn't particularly interesting unless they're on some gnarly colouir, which invarably requires the need for a helicopter (for both transport and filming). I watched something on the Travel Channel on SKY and they had two olympic skiers (can't remember their names) extolling the virtues of Wengen and Saas Fee and it was pants. Plus they were annoying yanks! Cruising down blues and reds isn't interesting even though it's what most of us do. That's why Top Gear drive Bugatti Veyrons across Europe or at 250mph - It's not normal life, it's not environmentally sound but it makes for good TV.
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Poster: A snowHead
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killian, what tens of thousands of scientists? The IPCC seemed to have consensus, but there are disputes about who was invited to report - and the rigour of peer review.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, plus many scientists have resigned from the IPCC in protest at its methods.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Even the IPCC report, when read with no more critical an eye than a scientist would normally employ in appraising any other publication, shows the evidence for climate change and its industrial causation to be weak almost to the point of speculation. It's only the conclusion that is emphatic, belying the political partiality of the Panel. Both the summary and full reports are freely available on their website. If you are trained to critically appraise scientific papers, read the summary and bits of the full for yourselves.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You see the trouble you have caused David, talking about climate change on snowheads.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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achilles,, best thing to do is but some links on the dispute of the IPCC findings also laundryman, a link to those who resigned. I could bet that the primary sources will be some wacko wingnuts.
Didn't the Shell CEO only recently accept that global warming was a reality?
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| killian wrote: |
I'm always amazed at the amount of Skiers who dismiss global warming.
I think if its a choice between Laundryman and tens of thousands of scientists, I think I will go with the scientists.
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But it isn't.
It is a choice between two bunches of scientists, both of which seem to be pushing their theories rather than being properly impartial.
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Mmm align myself with Creationists and the DUP or extremely well educated and qualified people who have spent a lifetime looking at climate data.....
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What is that supposed to mean?
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| Quote: |
Yes, these machines make a hell of a din while they spew their noxious gases.
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I bet you'd be more than happy to hear it when it came to airlift you to the hospital...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
