 Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'd be destroying the evidence! For the way he was skiing his path looked predictable to me. Your vid doesnt show him as stopped and it doesnt look like he would have had much time to do so. Guilty!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
In France no-one has the authority to do anything about it - pisteurs tell me they get buzzed while briging down stretchers.
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Why is that? Why can't the pisteurs just confiscate the pass of the offender?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| pam w wrote: |
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With all due respect, no you're wrong. It wasnt a 1cm bump which I probably should have specified. A change in snow conditions isn't forseeable, only imagineable.
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A change in snow conditions on piste is probable, rather than possible |
Got to agree with Pam - expect the unexpected is a good rule of thumb in many fields and seems to apply to skiing too.
I think awareness and anticipation are just as important skills to develop as the physical skills. I don't ski particularly fast at the best of times, but I ski much slower when I'm tired - especially when I'm mentally tired, which is my usual state by the time I get near a ski slope - because I know my reactions are slower and my awareness and anticipation could be reduced.
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| riverman wrote: |
So do the same rules ie the person behind is responsible if he hits the person in front apply to a bunch of cyclists.
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No.
When cycling in a bunch, you collectively accept that there will be a higher risk in return for the protection from wind restistance offered by cyc,ing closely together.
It is just an accepted part of racing cycling (and much club cycling even when not actually racing) that if one goes down, it will usually result in others in the bunch also going down.
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easiski,  even though many of the skiers are quite possibly from "alpine" countries? Well that certainly represents a frightening "statistic".
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Chasseur, Makes no diff - naturally if you don't get to ski all the time you're thinking about your holiday/skiing etc. What country you come from doesn't make much diff. Mostly what I see (apart from the loonies) is people with their eyes fixed either on their feet/skis or staring in front of them at their chosen route, and entirely oblivious of anything around them. However most would be shocked to find out how much they had to back off to be able to see what's happening to left and right as well!  Of course it's largely due to modern grooming, but not grooming is not the answer - I dont' know what is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski,
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| Of course it's largely due to modern grooming, but not grooming is not the answer - I dont' know what is |
why is that not the answer? It would certainly serve to slow things down a bit. Another thing that would really help would to restrict the number of people on the mountain. I was skiing with my seven year old in Ehrwald two days ago: the number of people was just unbelievable and meant that I spent the whole time sweating blood and trying to fend people off him. I've made a decision to avoid skiing with the kids during peak times like Xmas now. Too dangerous!
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As some of you may know, my hubby is in Grenoble hospital after a hit and run, but as Jules can't really remember being hit, we can't be certain, although the injuries suggest a high speed impact and fall, and I know that he skis with care on that part of the slope and wouldn't have been going fast. we have skied it loads of times, although I confess to avoiding it fro a long time because of the crowds, people falling and general chaos. OUr ski season is over after only one day on the pistes, and I am preparing to get hime home by air at the weekend. The consequences of others irresponsible behaviour will mean no skiing for the rest of the season. Fortunately, no paralysis. I am now reaching the angry stage.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Familiar theme... out of all the things I ski... some of the most fraught is skiing the 4 o' clock run with masses of people struggling on glazed pistes. Some don't seem able to control themselves so can hardly look out for others...!!! not that that is much excuse or consolation.
Who knows what the answer is...? but expect things like breath-tests and speed controls etc etc. Now, I am against those sorts of things generally but something will have to be done about the carnage.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Helen Beaumont, didnt appreciate that your husbands crash was possibly a hit and run... Thanks for contributing, it must be difficult to even type out the words... hope he heals up well...
I was out in Meribel opening week and although the slopes were relatively quiet the amount of very bad high speed skiers was frightening. I think it was primarily seasonaires in large groups egging each other on. Beware of early season chalet staff who ski on bad hangovers...
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JT, i will be skiing mostly off piste and or trying telemarking on beginner runs at half term me thinks. I would be all in favour of a ski patrol who confiscated passes if they saw reckless skiing....
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You know it makes sense.
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I haven't skied all that much in North America, but it seemed to me that there was quite a bit of effective piste patrol, as well as a lot more netting etc coming into the bottlenecks. I felt much safer as a result. In Europe these days, I will often use a lift at the end of the day, in preference to negotiating the crowds on the slopes, and I avoid school holidays like the plague.
Helen Beaumont, so, SO glad it wasn't worse. I guess that will be the thought for the whole family to focus on. Hope that your husband's recovery continues apace and problem-free.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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There has been a lot of talk with respect to the up-slope skier always being in the wrong if involved in a collision, and by inference the down-slope l skier is alway in the right, but there seems to be some quite clear rules that a lot of down-slope skiers fall foul off (and whilst Lechbob is well and truly 'banged to rights' for his collision, the down-slope skier also was at fault in his video and did not comply with some of these rules below), but we should all recognise our responsibility as the down-slope skiers too and not consider it as a 'get out of jail' excuse for bad skiing. Whilst fault may well fall at the feet (  ) of the up-slope skier I have witnessed many crashes and near misses that had huge mitigating circumstances due to act, action or omission of a down-slope skier not complying with these basic rules and as such the down-slope skier can be at as much fault as the up-slope skier.
Respect for others Don't endanger other people on the slope - surely this also means that skiers 'down-slope' need to ski responsibly by not doing ridiculously silly things like stopping mid-piste hockey style, or uncharacteristically cutting across the piste immediately after a series of tight turns because their mate has pulled in along the edge of the piste and they did not notice that he/she had stopped
Control of speed Adapt your speed to match your ability and the slope conditions
Choice of route Adapt your line so that you don't endanger people further down the slope
Overtaking You can overtake to the left or right, but always leave enough room for the person you're overtaking to continue their line - likewise - surely this also means that skiers 'down-slope' need to ski responsibly by not doing ridiculously silly things out of character with their chosen line they are following? this implies that if you give enough room to overtake based upon the line the down hill skier is taking then that is an acceptable amount of room, if the down hill skier alters their (consistent) line straight in to your path then this suggest the down hill skier is at fault?
Starting and entering Check up and down the hill when you start, enter or cross a slope
Stopping Always stop at the side of the slope. Avoid stopping in narrow areas, or places with restricted visibility - again - surely this also means that skiers 'down-slope' should not just stop mid piste? this implies that if you are skiing within a reasonable distance from the skier and they just stop in the middle of the piste then they are just as much to blame in the case of an accident as some one up-slope, but the argument would be that you should not be going so fast so that you can not stop in time or swerve to avoid the person, but it could be argued that your speed and stopping time does not necessarily need to allow for some numpty slamming into a hockey stop mid piste? Likewise stopping just below the brow of a hill or at a bend on a narrow piste does not absolve you of fault if some one skis in to you just because you were technically the down-slope skier when you stoped .
Climbing Always keep to the side
Signs All signs and markings are there to keep you safe, so make sure you obey them
Accidents If you see an accident, you inform the emergency services and offer help. Identify yourself to the emergency services and the people involved in the accident.
Snowboarding Always make sure the board it tethered to your front leg. Always check the slope before making a turn, particularly your heel side. - I do not have my board tethered to my leg by a leash? if that is what it means, but i always have my foot in it. I always check the slope before making a turn, but in so far as my head will turn and my vision will allow, but what is a turn? mostly the entire method of riding a board is going from edge to edge, so is that a turn? or just my normal 'line'? what if some one simply skis in to the side/back of me when I am boarding within one meter of the edge of the piste with my back to the piste?
The simple answer to all of this is ski safely and in a responsible manner at all times  , which is an easy thing to remember !
edit - I just fancied using blue !!
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Poster: A snowHead
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rayscoops ... but if the uphill skier or boarder took all those (blue highighted) potential failings of the downhill one into account, the rules of the busy piste would mostly prevent accidents. An uphill skier or boarder expecting a downhill one to observe any consideration is shirking their own responsibility and inviting disaster.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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moffatross, sorry, i disagree. being downhill from someone doesn't exclude you from bearing them in mind when riding down the mountain. as a slope user, you need to bear everyone else using the slope in mind. just as you would have people behind you in mind if you were driving.
haha, maybe we should suggest everyone gets rearview mirrors for slope use...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| moffatross wrote: |
| rayscoops ... but if the uphill skier or boarder took all those (blue highighted) potential failings of the downhill one into account, the rules of the busy piste would mostly prevent accidents and if you want to let it rip, do it when there's nobody around. Hoping or expecting the downhill skier or boarder to have any consideration for the uphill one is just inviting disaster. |
I agree and would not suggest for an instant that you should assume the down hill skier is going to ski like an angel, but there are nevertheless certain things that a down hill skier should not do in the same way there are certain things that an upper skier should likewise not do, and the down hill skier can be at fault in the same way an up hill skier can be at fault, based upon this set of published rules
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sherlock235, This is going around and around isn't it but I'll say it again because I so much totally disagree with you. I'm not saying that the jerk downhill shouldn't learn some etiquette too but anybody uphill who can't deal with the randomness, sheer idiocy, incompetence, maliciousness or whatever excuse they might want to dig up to abdicate some of the blame to the bod downhill is skiing or boarding beyond their own ability and should acknowledge that, change their attitude or go ski / board somewhere where there aren't any other people.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Thu 1-01-09 14:08; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| sherlock235 wrote: |
| haha, maybe we should suggest everyone gets rearview mirrors for slope use... |
I've long thought whoever invested a mechanism for attaching a rearview mirror to one's arm would make a fortune. And I suppose that is precisely why the downhill slope user has right of way - the uphill user can see far more of what is going on between him/her and the person below them hence the onus is on them, with more info, to give way if need be. But I also take the point that every slope user should, if at all possible, attempt to be predictable. The collision regs at sea actually include this provision - the stand-on vessel (with right of way) needs to hold their course so that the give way vessel can manoeuvre accordingly in order to give way, with the proviso that the supreme obligation on every vessel is to avoid a collision so apply common sense
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| Quote: |
the supreme commandment on every vessel is to avoid a collision so apply common sense
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but also to keep a good look out at all times. Skiers doing sudden manoevres - crossing the piste because a mate has stopped for example - should certainly look uphill before doing so, and not just suddenly dart out. Also, stop and check uphill before moving off after a stop. Just as drivers should all brake gently and signal before turning. But if someone brakes sharply and you run into the back of him, it's still absolutely the fault of the driver at the rear. And for beginner/nervous skiers, turning round to see who is coming down behind them is often a recipe for disaster.
Taking lifts down at the end of a busy day is an elementary precaution of defensive skiing and something I've always done in places like Val D'Isere. I don't often ski at New Year and am taking the afternoon off. I enjoyed the morning - lovely snow - but there are too many people out there (though I've seen no collisions yet this year). Only one more day of crowds, then it'll all be nice and quiet again. The way things are going, taking little kids skiing at New Year and Half Term is going to become a bigger risk than ever. At least adults can make up their own minds, and take responsibility for themselves.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Quote: |
the supreme commandment on every vessel is to avoid a collision so apply common sense
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but also to keep a good look out at all times. Skiers doing sudden manoevres - crossing the piste because a mate has stopped for example - should certainly look uphill before doing so, and not just suddenly dart out. Also, stop and check uphill before moving off after a stop. Just as drivers should all brake gently and signal before turning. But if someone brakes sharply and you run into the back of him, it's still absolutely the fault of the driver at the rear. And for beginner/nervous skiers, turning round to see who is coming down behind them is often a recipe for disaster. |
Yes, of course, I nearly added that. On a boat, there are usually enough people - and enough time - for the captain to know what is going on around at all times, at least on a small vessel. The difference with skiing is the downhill skier's lack of eyes in the back of the head. But if said skier is intentionally going to change their pattern - cross the piste, stop, restart etc. as you say - then I think they absolutely need to look first; but the uphill skier needs to allow room (mentally and physically) for them to do so, and for anyone downhill to lose control. Whilst crowds of people stopping at ridges on pistes may be a source of amusement to some, the number of far-too-near-misses I've seen and experienced from people heading straight over ridges without looking and without allowing for there to be people below them is frankly scary. And freestyle kids doing jumps from beyond the side of the piste back onto the piste with no thought or consideration that there might be people in the way, ditto. In the same way that you don't overtake on a blind bend or a hump-backed bridge in a car because you can't see ahead properly, the same should apply to skiing when the terrain or light/weather precludes optimum visibility.
I'd also like to add, that I find it increasingly takes courage as the downhill skier to hold my line because I've been hit or near-missed so many times that I want to know what's going on behind me so that even if the idiots pelting down from above aren't properly in control or don't know the FIS rules, at least I can then take evasive action. I prefer to stop at the side of the piste and wait for the crowds to pass - but that then annoys my companions. Fortunately where we mostly ski the vast majority of skiers are better and more experienced than I am, but there are always the odd holiday skiers, esp at peak times, and it only takes one person to deprive you of your earning capacity or your life
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what amazes me is that a lot of the time the down hill skier is aware of the up-hill skier and still heads for the edge of the piste etc. in front of who ever is coming down the slope
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Taking lifts down at the end of a busy day is an elementary precaution of defensive skiing |
That is probably a very good bit of advice, though not one that I have put into practice yet, as long as there was snow on the pistes. The thought certainly went through my mind last time I was in Söll.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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espri, Who the hell skis fast at a crossing point? Bad show.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Scarpa wrote: |
| espri, Who the hell skis fast at a crossing point? Bad show. |
Agreed. In this case we may hear more details, so it might come out who was to blame, one or both. In German reports it does say that there were "Slow" signs at the crossing.
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espri, "This season does seem to be particularly bad with such accidents"
I was thinking that too, I can't remember so many in recent seasons?
Maybe it is just that thru this thread we are picking up all the stories that we would otherwise miss???
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You know it makes sense.
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| robboj wrote: |
| Maybe it is just that thru this thread we are picking up all the stories that we would otherwise miss??? |
There may be something in that. However, though I have only discovered this forum recently, I have followed the German ski forum for a year or two and don't remember so many serious accidents being reported in such a short time (in particular, not so many accidents caused by collisions). I suspect that it is rather a chance increase but there may be explanatory factors behind that, such as weather conditions, increased numbers of skiers on the slopes, improved equipment and piste preparation leading to higher speeds, etc.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| espri wrote: |
| ...... I suspect that it is rather a chance increase but there may be explanatory factors behind that, such as weather conditions, increased numbers of skiers on the slopes, improved equipment and piste preparation leading to higher speeds, etc. |
Or possibly a society shift in attitude from a sense of responsibility for the well-being of others towards selfish disregard for others' safety
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Poster: A snowHead
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| achilles wrote: |
| espri wrote: |
| ...... I suspect that it is rather a chance increase but there may be explanatory factors behind that, such as weather conditions, increased numbers of skiers on the slopes, improved equipment and piste preparation leading to higher speeds, etc. |
Or possibly a society shift in attitude from a sense of responsibility for the well-being of others towards selfish disregard for others' safety |
we are grumpy today !
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| Or possibly a society shift in attitude from a sense of responsibility for the well-being of others towards selfish disregard for others' safety |
There's probably something in that, though I would rather describe it as "thoughtlessness". Practically, though, the result is "selfish disregard". I don't think that skiers deliberately ski out of control. They believe that they are in control. But there is a tendency (of some) to ski so close to the edge of their ability that they are unable handle any escalating difficulty. In that sense, they are out of control but they didn't recognise it (until too late). Education (of piste manners) is the only way I see to change the situation but I fear that that is a slow and not very effective process.
Recent developments in ski (and snowboard) instruction, carving, jumps, 360° turns and the like, do lead to more able skiers, who feel more one with their skis. But perhaps the increased confidence has its down side too, when it can lead to skiers believing they can handle situations which are actually beyond them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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this recent trend of reckless and inconsiderate skiing seems to have become worse with the increase in the wearing of helmets ! Do new skiers think they are superman/woman perhaps because they have a lid on?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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substiture downhill skier for downhill pistebasher n see how 'careful' everyone gets
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| this recent trend of reckless and inconsiderate skiing seems to have become worse with the increase in the wearing of helmets ! |
I don't believe that wearing helmets is the cause of reckless and inconsiderate skiing. Skiers don't set out deliberately to have accidents, so I don't think they argue, "Oh, I've got my helmet on today, so I can be that bit wilder." The trend to wearing helmets has developed in parallel to people skiing faster but it isn't the cause of them going faster. The extra speed and the resultant recklessness in some cases comes rather from better equipment, technique and piste preparation.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Clearly a horrid incident and as others have said, I feel more vulnerable from this kind of thing than most other hazards on and off piste.
I too get very annoyed when people combine arrogance and a lack of competence by skiing too close to me, not in full control. Despite that, I do feel some sympathy for the lad in this case. I did silly things as a teenager that could have gone badly wrong. This doesn't excuse him but does make me feel for him having to carry the knowledge that he killed a man around with him for the rest of his life.
I totally understand why Easiski feels so strongly about this - when your livelihood is threatened by other peoples' negligence it must be infuriating.
In my view, too many skiers don't take full responsibility for their actions on the mountain. Too many people take the attitude that "stuff happens" without acknowledging that it is their job to make sure that that "stuff" doesnt result in other people being endangered. Most people who post here are not in this camp but I do detect a bit of this attitude in posts by Timmaah and Lechbob (guys, I'm not suggesting that you are bad people or that you are irresponsible, it's just that, in my view, you don't seem to be taking ENOUGH responsibility).
Timmaah, says that you can be in full control until you hit a bump then be out of control. I (like others who have posted) would argue that if hitting a bump is enough to throw you out of control then you were not fully in control before - you were skiing at a speed that prevent you from adapting to the terrain. In my view it is fine to ski NEAR THE LIMIT of your ability (as opposed to in full control) provided that the piste below you is sufficiently clear that you loosing control would not endanger someone else. I think a lot of skiers out there (rather than on here) share Timmaah's view that losing control ue to changing snow conditions is just "stuff happening" and you can't be blamed if it results in injury to other people.
The other skier in Lechbob's video definitely contributed to the collision but that does nothing to alter the fact that it was Lechbob's job to avoid him and not the other way around. The fact that he seems a little surprised that most of us were sos ure that he was at fault speaks to a lack of awareness of his responsibilities when skiing.
If this sounds a little pious then I apologise. To redress the balance, I have had near misses in which I would have been at fault if we had collided and the evasive action was certainly not fully controlled. Not for years though. I've posted about the worst incident here before but briefly:
I was 23 and midway through working a ski-season. I was skiing a bumpy section in the fall-line, going quite quick (definitely vulnerable if I'd hit a bump Timmaah stylee!) and looking 3 bumps ahead. I looked up to see a ski instructor standing at one edge of the piste and his class of 8 year olds skiing in line across the piste towards him. I quickly reached the conclusion that I couldn't get behind the instructor or round the back of the children, that hitting the deck would result in me clattering through the line of children and that my only option was to aim for the rapidly dwindling gap between the first child and the instructor. The gap got so narrow that I squeezed through it on one ski, just nudging the shoulder of the instructor before wiping out.
I felt awful and apologised profusely (coveniently positioned on my knees). I half expected him to give me a slap but he left it at a few verbals.
Now, I could argue that he had stopped in a bad place (and I wonder if that he felt the same and that contributed to him not trying to get my pass removed) but it still completely my responsibility to avoid the downhill skiers. I was skiing too fast for the conditions.
J
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rayscoops, Other way round more likely. The increase in accidents, prompts some people to take some safety measures (helmets being one).
Please stop trying to stereotype people - that sort of of BS is just as bad as slating Borders or Skiers as a group. There are individual people who make individual mistakes, or have their own individual bad habits.
Accidents happen more, because the pistes are simply more crowded. I've skied all over the alps since the late 70's and the difference in most resorts in enormous.
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beeryletcher, moffatross, espri, or alternatively, do peeps ski/board more defensively the days they do not wear a helmet, not deliberately perhaps, but I bet peeps take it a bit easier - like 'oh I forgot my helmet I think I will take it a bit easier today, just in case'
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FAQ
My beginners were exceedingly alarmed and it took a good few turns to settle them back down again afterwards.
