 Poster: A snowHead
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I'm not "special" enough to post on the news section so it's here instead.
Terrible incident where a 51 yr old man was killed on Christmas day by an unknown person.
Taken from the Guardian
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Police in the Italian Alps are checking ski passes, viewing security videos and questioning holidaymakers in the hunt for a mystery skier who came down the slopes too fast on Christmas morning and collided with a man, 51, leaving him dying from a head injury in front of his 12-year-old daughter.
Arthur Lantschner, a cook from Collepietra in Alto Adige, was skiing with his daughter at the Obereggen resort near Bolzano when a man described by police as tall, in his 30s and dressed in a blue ski suit collided at speed with him from behind, possibly striking Lantschner's head with an elbow.
The two men fell into the snow before the unidentified man got back on to his skies and fled, leaving Lantschner suffering from a cranial trauma which prompted cardiac arrest. A helicopter was called after a nearby skier spotted Lantschner's daughter standing in shock in the snow, but her father was dead when he arrived at Bolzano hospital.
"The mystery skier was not masked, we have a rough description of him and we are appealing to all holiday skiers to help us track him down," said Davido Perasso, of the Bolzano carabinieri paramilitary police.
Carabinieri were yesterday combing the three exit points at the foot of the 32 slopes that make up the resort, which is popular with Italians and Germans. Video footage from bank cashpoints in the area is being studied and hotel managers are being questioned. "The problem is that there are 18,000 hotel beds in the area," said Perasso.
Lantschner, an expert skier who raced in his youth, had taken advantage of blue skies, compact snow and few crowds on Christmas morning to take his daughter skiing, choosing a medium-rated slope at Obereggen. "With few other skiers around, the hit and run skier still managed to strike Lantschner in the dead centre of the slope," said Thomas Ondertoller, a resort official.
Records from the resort being studied by police show there were 600 other ski pass holders spread across Obereggen's 60 miles of slopes at 11.15am, the time the incident was reported.
"The weekly and monthly passes have names and photos on them, so we have that information, but day passes are anonymous," said Ondertoller.
Lantschner was known to staff at the Bolzano hospital who tried to save his life. He had worked there as head cook.
"He ran a team of 15 cooks here, was well-liked and both he and his daughter were frequent and good skiers," said a colleague.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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How awful 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I hope they catch the idiot - will be a case of luck if he was caught on camera anywhere and recognisable.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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B@st@rd. 
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What a very sad story.
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| Quote: |
did report to the police later
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with his lawyer.... being 16 is no excuse for not stopping...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, probably panicked and didn't know what to do, so fled.
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I doubt he knew he had killed the man... He did the honourable thing and handed himself in though. Just sounds like a really unfortunate freak accident. Very unfortunate for the victims family, especially his daughter. And somewhat unfortunate for the hit and runner.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, got to agree and shows the sort of people we may come into contact with on the slopes  He wouldnt have known the extent of the gentlemans injuries but he didnt even stop to ask if he was ok or to help him up ?
As Timmaah, says, at least he handed himself in. I believe its just a most unfortunate accident for all concerned, probably made worse by him skiing off from the scene.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It's a scary sport. I found my first week's skiing, when I had little control, very scary indeed. For fear of wiping somebody else out.
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I can understand the panic and fled, especially if he got up and rezlised his victim was un-responsive. He knew he's in deep trouble. A 16 year old may be tempted to leave with no trace and not deal with whatever the consequence. Wrong, but understandable.
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"With few other skiers around, the hit and run skier still managed to strike Lantschner in the dead centre of the slope," said Thomas Ondertoller, a resort official.
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That's going to be the issue he needs to have a very good answer. Leaving the scence left him with very little credibility.
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You know it makes sense.
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It is pretty unpardonable to leave the scene of an accident but, as others have said, probably understandable. I know that I don't always act entirely rationally in the heat of the moment, particularly when I know I'm in the wrong.
Sadly, I suspect that Mr. Lantscher wasn't wearing a helmet. Maybe the outcome would have been different if he had.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, PJSki, Panic is no excuse either. No sympathy or understanding should be even considered.
You speak for yourself. I take it's been a while since you were sixteen?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hmm...read this earlier and was horrified, glad the lad saw sense and handed himself over. In my book that does count for a lot, it shows he is'nt a ski chav and good inside!
Reminds me when I hit a patch of ice and hit the only skier sat on the slope, my board hit him flat on the back at an amazing speed and I thought I'd killed him or at least broke his back. I did take off my board and returned up the slope and tried to aplogise in French with which they told eff' off in English, which I did rapidly!
Different cicumstances accure and would be intersted in any out come to this!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, with all due respect, all we know are some vague details. So without knowing more you can hardly be so overly harsh on the kid, yes he's a kid afterall.
I would assume he gets charged for manslaughter but to the degree where its small jail time/parole. Also, how do you know it wasn't a freak accident? He didn't punch him, he skied into him. Different things.
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| easiski wrote: |
Timmaah, If he hit the guy it's no freak accident
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That is just a ridiculous thing to say without knowing a lot more than we do.
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- I hope he gets at least manslaughter (Italian equivalent), and gets put in jail for a long, long time.
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Well fortunately (for him) you are not in charge of the justice system, and manslaughter rarely results in very long jail terms even for adults. For a 16 year old, even if he is found guilty of manslaughter (unlikely without witnesses), a few years in a youth detention centre would be the most he could expect.
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There is no excuse for skiing out of control, and no excuse for leaving the scene of the accident. Leaving a 12 year old to deal with their hurt dad. I don't care if the boy was 16 or 60 - he's a pig and there's no excuse. 
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You've obviously never been a 16 year old boy (and from that reaction, I suspect don't remember being a 16 year old girl either).
They are NOT adults, although close to it, and some cionsideration must always be givcen for their lack of maturity.
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PJSki, Panic is no excuse either. No sympathy or understanding should be even considered.
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Can we presume than that you are one of those very rare people who have never done something you shouldn't have in a panic?
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This is happening so much now (fortunately not usually resulting in death), so many ski pros are being injured and the b*st*rds almost always ski off and are never found. Not being dead is not much help if your career is ruined is it? And yes - I do know people who have been badly injured in this way. |
Perhaps you are letting that fact cloud your reactions here.
And he did at least have the decency to hand himself in when he found out what had happened.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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A sad story all around but I agree with Easiski. Anyone taking part in a snow sport should consider their first responsibility is to be in control of their body and their kit any time there's anyone downhill of them. Anyone arguing that this isn't always possible is simply making an excuse for their own ineptitude or wrecklessness.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| A sad story all around but I agree with Easiski. Anyone taking part in a snow sport should consider their first responsibility is to be in control of their body and their kit any time there's anyone downhill of them. Anyone arguing that this isn't always possible is simply making an excuse for their own ineptitude or wrecklessness. |
Of course they should, and AFAIK, nobody has argued that it isn't always possible.
But that doesn't mean that no consideration should be given for the fact he was only 16.
He was certainly in the wrong. There can be no real doubt about that, even if it was some sort of "freak accident" that the guy died. He shouldn't have been skiing in such a way that a mistake could result in him hitting somebody.
Having said which, I would imagine almost every skier out there has done so at some time in their skiing career. (Not necessarily actually collided with another skier, but skied in such a way that a mistake could have resulted in them doing so).
So let's try not to be too "holier than thou" unless we can honestly say that we have never, ever in our entire skiing career, skied irresponsibly.
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What a terrible thing to happen and what an incredibly stupid thread. How one can argue so heatedly in total ignorance of the facts is completely beyond me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Although we do not know the "facts", afaik if you "rearend" someone on the road you are at fault - unless presumably someone has done the same to you and pushed you into the vehicle in front or some other similar circumstance. Similarly, those below you on the slope have priority and if you hit them you are responsible, is that not so?
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Yoda, OK so to carry on the analogy, what if the guy who hit him was out of control because he had been hit by someone else?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Skiing is a dangerous sport.
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Another fatal accident is reported from Mittersill in Austria (Kitzbühel Alps), where on Saturday a man and a youth collided. The German report is at http://salzburg.orf.at/stories/331585/.
I agree that we should be reticent of apportioning blame in these cases without knowing the facts. What I would pick out of this report is that the man, who died, was not wearing a helmet. The other chap, with a helmet, survived with a fractured skull. Perhaps we can learn something from that. Pistes are prepared very hard these days; people do ski fast. Accidents happen. I always think that wearing a helmet skiing (which I have only done now for about three of my 40+ years) is like having a seat belt in a car. You don't really need one. Until you need one.
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You know it makes sense.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| moffatross wrote: |
| Anyone taking part in a snow sport should consider their first responsibility is to be in control of their body and their kit any time there's anyone downhill of them. Anyone arguing that this isn't always possible is simply making an excuse for their own ineptitude or wrecklessness. |
... let's try not to be too "holier than thou" unless we can honestly say that we have never, ever in our entire skiing career, skied irresponsibly. |
Of course I have and still do careless stuff. That doesn't make any potential tragic consequence of my careless behaviour while skiing more acceptable than say when driving my car though. Surely that's not being pious is it ?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I guess the question is - Is irresponsibility culpability? Who defines what is irresponsible behaviour?
Having been comprehensively taken out in VT by another snowslope user this year I will subscribe to the notion that accidents happen. It may be the case that the person that took me out was using the slope without undue care and attention I don't know. It may have been the case that they got hemmed in by other people or took avoiding action on another potential incident and I was the victim. It may have been the case that they just got caught up in the moment and just took their eye off the ball for a split second (which I think is most likely), but I bet we've all done that (in all sorts of situations not only skiing). In this case unfortunately the accident was fatal - if the chap had just been winded and have got up slinging a steam of appropriate expletives after the 16 year old, then the story wouldn't even be know. The 16 year old probably isn't the only one ever to take out another snow user and disappear into the whiteness although they are not meant to. I tend to the theory that the 16 year old just got unlucky as did his victim, he panicked and ran - OK he shouldn't have done so, but you can kind of understand why, but apparently gave himself up later. I think 2 lives and 2 families have had their futures ruined by an accident that just unfortunately became fatal - there is a family with a loss and a family that has to live with the fact that a 16 year old family member has killed someone. I wouldn't want to be judge and jury dealing with this its just very sad.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Alastair, assuming that scenario then if he was unable to either stop or regain control after being hit then I would suggest he was skiing beyond his ability and would still therefore be responsible, unless you are suggesting a sort of "domino" or billiard ball effect, for which there does not appear to be any witness evidence.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
I guess the question is - Is irresponsibility culpability? Who defines what is irresponsible behaviour?
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The judicial system?
Accidents do happen, but the behaviour of some people make it significantly more likely that a serious accident will happen. In serious cases, and they don't get more serious than this example, it is right that the courts test whether it was just an accident or crossed the line into criminal culpability.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, so 16 year olds in stolen cars who kill themselves and /or others are just "unlucky"? In my view the analogy holds.
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espri, [thread drift]wearing of helmets, or not, has been debated on here at some length. It is a far from clear cut case.[/thread drift]
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Yoda wrote: |
| for which there does not appear to be any witness evidence. |
Those pesky facts getting in the way again 
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rob@rar, Yes, I think that sums up what I was trying to get at - it is right that a court decides, but whatever the outcome two families will still suffer and the lad will have the death of the chap on his conscience into the future.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| ... whatever the outcome two families will still suffer and the lad will have the death of the chap on his conscience into the future. |
Yes, that's right. Maybe skiing slower on busy pistes would have been a more sensible approach? I struggle to imagine circumstances where I would have any sympathy for the 16 year old.
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rob@rar, do we know the piste was busy?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PJSki wrote: |
| rob@rar, do we know the piste was busy? |
Busy enough for a collision.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| wearing of helmets ... It is a far from clear cut case |
It seems a pretty clear cut case to me: if you have an accident and die because of a fractured skull, then a helmet might have given you a better survival chance. But to wear a helmet or not is a personal choice and risk assessment.
P.S. I'm new here, so I haven't followed any previous discussions about helmets.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Sun 28-12-08 23:47; edited 1 time in total
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