Straight Skis to Shaped Skis / How should I change me technique?

A snowHead

My background: I've been skiing since I was 3. I am an expert by all standards with over 40 years experience racing and instructing. You name it. I have not found a slope I could not handle. I ski hard, fast, and agressive. Then I did not ski for 10 years due to knee repairs and now I find everything has changed due to the shaped skis. Overnight I became a fossil.

I got out on the new skis this week. I noticed a little wider stance came naturally. In the past I put all my weight hard on the downhill ski of those 205cm straight boards. I am now told that isn't how it is done anymore. What is the right technique? I hold my poles as if I was holding a serving tray. Plant turn....Plant turn. Is this the same these days?

I watched the slope all day to find somebody that looked good and looked like they knew what they were doing. I wasn't impressed by anybody and found no technique to learn from. I've got to find some good skiers.

Old-School

A snowHead

A lesson?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Old-School, where you ski at?

I'm heading to Chestnut Mtn wed hopefully - watching me ski ought to make you feel like an expert again!

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Old-School, everything you learnt is still valid but the new skis make possible a whole new (and particularly efficient) technique to add to the armoury: carving!

When you picked up your technique in the first place, you would have learnt all these individual methods of making the skis do what you wanted but, as you describe yourself as expert, I assume that you became able to mix and match these according to what the moment requires.

First: Learn to carve the ski properly, purely.
Second: assimilate that technique into your 'way'.
You'll suddenly find it feels like you're skiing like you're 10, even 20 years younger!

IMO the big difference from old school is in how much less you are doing to turn the ski. To a great degree you are simply putting it on it's edge, putting your weight in the right spot and then trusting the ski to do its bit. Your effort goes primarily into what would have been the fine tuning rather the act of simply rotating the ski. The overall idea I suppose is to let the ski do as much for you as it's able, given the particular turn you wish to execute.

I have a good friend in his 60's who I've always known as just a 'natural' skier: get's down anything and looks relaxed about it. 3 or 4 years ago he discovered Shaped skis and went nuts about them as they seemed to make everything so much easier. Even so though, he tended to use them in quite an old school style.
Recently though, we were on a glacier and conditions dictated a few days 'technique honing' were in order - one of those days he discovered Carving (and the 'G's involved) and I swear he was as excited as I've ever seen him!

You could do worse than spend a few days having a technique 'upgrade' with Easiski - it's a shame you appear to be in the states (she's in France).

I guess what u really need is a lesson or two from an instructor who has done the upgrade themselves from old scholl to carving. I think some of the younger 'hot dude' instructors, whilst great at teaching someone from scratch may not have the experience of olde school to really comprehend the point your starting from.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Old-School, Two things will help:
1) try to push your inside knee to the inside of the turn right at the start. this will help you to get your feet apart (they should be hip width, not further), which is one of the hardest things for old schoolers to do.
2) Just put your ski on the edge at the beginning of the turn and stand on it (the edge I mean). The ski will just go round. Get used to doing this and then experiment with more or les pressure.

Some things to think about:
Position and balance are much more important now, and you should ski with your hips over the balls of your feet and your weight principally on the front part of your foot. Pole planting is now generally done later, at the top of any extension movement, and to stabilise the upper body through the turn. It's now a light touch on the snow. We no longer go down before the turn (down, up, down), but one up and one down if you're happier with flexion extension. Even this is no longer actually necesary. You can get away with inclining much more than you used to. The outside ski is still dominant, but we no longer lift up the inside ski.

that should keep you going for a while. I suggest you look at Ron Le Master's website to see how it should really be done. If taking a lesson be sure to get a PSIA Level 4 if you can (that's the level at which PSIA matches European National instructors). Enjoy Very Happy

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Old-School, i agree with everything easiski says.

I'm a bit like you but no expert , I could get down anything ( except moguls and powder as i never seem to get any ), We had kids nine years ago and i only returned last year.

What happened ? I found everyone had carvers and there were more Blo**y snowborders.

My kids and wife have been having lessons and their instructor told them that i'm quote " Old School "

I had a couple of lessons last week in ADH and have the basics in my mind but need a lot more practice. It is strange but im using my poles less and trying to get the ski's to do the work by geting my knee more into the mountain. I seem have have less problem carving when i'm going fast but trying to do slow long turns is hard work for me and my legs tend to come back together grrrr.

I dont know if this is true but I had 1/2 hr instruction on moguls and was told that the legs closer together and the pole planting of old helps me get down them. I even think i've got the hang of the technique.

I'm off to Les Gets next weekend so practice will be the order of the day. Razz

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I used to race on straight 205s too back in the 80's (Rossi 4S etc) Since you raced and instructed for many years, I would imagine you already know how to carve properly. When I switched to carvers in the late 90s I found the transition very easy. Everything basically just required less effort. I think it takes more of an adjustment if you used to ski with feet glued together, wiping the tails around. I assume you don't ski like that? Most ex racers dont, regardless of how old they are.

After all it is free

"What is the right technique?"

Oh yeah and there is no "right" technique. There are certainly some wrong ones, but I think some people get way too far up their own bums regarding correct technique. The guy that won the slalom in Kitzbuhel the other day hardly displayed textbook technique, but he seemed to know what he was doing regardless Wink

uktrailmonster, And he won it by quite a big margin.

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uktrailmonster, Yeah - he was really scrappy wasn't he - must have been pushing the envelope really hard. OTOH he was messy with his arms earlier int he season too. good for him though.

Wrong technique though - yes - stiff legs, upper body rotation, leaning back - never right. Smile

IMO 50/50 weight on piste is never right either.

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veeeight, Yes but Full cert US is NOT full cert Europe - that is Level 4. if this guy wants top instruction there he should look for an ISTD = Level 4.

AFAIK there is no PSIA Level 4. CSIA L4 yes, but not PSIA L4.

You know it makes sense.

admin,

the new skis make possible a whole new (and particularly efficient) technique to add to the armoury: carving!

So no-one carved before 10 years ago? what a load of rubbish. Carving is not a "whole new technique".

I suspect Old-School (as an expert) knew how to carve on skinny skis. What he will find (particularly if he follows easiskis excellent tips) is that he can carve a higher proportion of his turns on "shaped" skis than on his old skinny skis i.e., can carve turns with less forward pressure, less speed, requiring less space than before.

J

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Old-School,

these guys may be worth contacting...

www.modernskiracing.com

Rick is good value but in colorado... they do run clinics...and may be able to accomodate your needs

A snowHead

veeeight, According to the ISIA Trainer/level 4 = ISTD. Apparently this doesn't exist all over the states though. My point was that Old School, having been a good skier in his time will not benefit from lessons with some of the lesser qualified types. You're in Canada - you can't help him either! (Remember the thread about my american guy who couldn't find carving lessons in Snowbird/Sundance etc?)

A snowHead

jedster, yeah, it makes me chuckle when I hear this! I'm certainly no expert, but I do know that I could carve turns on my old Force 9 3S skis, and on even straighter rental skis before that. But I would have been hard pushed to do it without all my weight on the outside ski due to the small sidecut, larger camber and greater stiffnes - it took so much more effort to get the whole edge in contact with the snow. But they would still carve a turn.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Actually I saw a guy on 2Ss carving short radius the other day - I was WELL impressed.

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The more I read on here, the more pleased I am that I was fortunate enough to learn on straight skis. They make every ski since seem very user friendly Smile

Old-School, You're a lot more experienced than me (I've only been at it a mere 25 years) and I'm sure you'll find the same. Just takes a little time to adjust to the feel and response. I suspect your doubt is coming more from the 10 year lay-off than the change in ski technology. Give it a few weeks and you'll dial yourself into the new skis without a hitch. It would be a lot harder going the other way! I tried skiing my old Volkl VP19s for a laugh a couple of years back and couldn't do a thing on them Sad

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Old-School, you may want to ask on the forums at EpicSki.com - there are plenty of good instructors out there, you just need to know where to find them! Wink

...oh, and make sure you have FUN.

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Lots of good commentary here. I like Admin's and Easiski's remarks. I had always thought that I could carve a turn even on my 205 Rossi 4S Boards. It was all about the edge on the downhill ski. Driving hard into it and flexing that ski on every turn. The way people are talking you would think that carving was invented by the shaped ski. Maybe by definition they are describing something that I am not familiar with. My stance was never with boots together. I always worked toward or had a hip width stance. I do occasionally pick up that inside ski when transitioning weight. I will have to knock that off. I tried 5 different shaped skis the other day. Fisher RX9, Fisher RX8, Volkl AC3, Volkl Supersport and Volkl Racetiger GS. All between 175 to 177 cm. What I found was that the more dramatic 14m sidecut on the RX8s made them hunt in my opinion. I called them the wanderers. Sure they turn, but you never knew what you had under foot. The 16m sidecuts seemed better. The AC3 didn't seem to have enough tortional stiffness on the edge for me. The Supersports were better, then I got on the bit stiffer Volkl Racetiger GS and that was great. I could feel those edges bite at all speeds. I like edges. The faster you went the better. The most amazing thing is that I could blast over the top of head walls and into the crud with less thought and preparation than with the long boards. All these skis just don't get hung-up and you don't have to think about the transitions from hard pack to powder to crud. It just doesn't matter that much. I thought for sure they would start to dance wildly at high speed given they were so short, but they seem solid. It is strange, because the 180's I had 30 years ago for hot dogging were useless over 20 mph. I should buy some type of Volkl GS skis someday, but for now I went cheap and simply bought some undrilled 181cm K2 GS Race stock for $130 USD on Ebay that had a 16m sidecut. I figure they will work and get me easily 2 decades ahead of where I was. I can then experiment from there.

Old-School

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Old-School, you will love the 2007 Head iSuperShape Speed, or 2007 Head iXRC 1400 Chip.

After all it is free

Hey Old-School, there's really not that much different with shape skis. If you carved on straight skis, you'll carve on shapes, only better. Shape skis just make carving an option for the average Joe. They allow arc to arc turning to be done at reasonable speeds because of the speed governing turn shapes they are able to produce.

The major difference is in the type of angulation you need to employ to establish and maintain lateral balance at a particular edge angle. At any specific edge angle a shape ski will turn sharper, and will therefor generate larger centrifugal forces that will need to be counteracted. You do that by moving your Center of Mass further inside. On straight skis we used to have to use big amounts of knee angulation to remain balanced on the outside ski. Those skis just didn't turn sharp enough to generally produce the centrifugal forces needed to remain in balance if hip angulated with an extended outside leg. We therefor had to keep the hips more over the top of our boots and put our ski on edge with our knee. On shape skis the game changes. We now have the luxury to ski with a longer, stronger outside leg, and do whatever lateral balance adjustments we need to do primarily at the hip

So to get away from the old knee angulation thing, focus on what easiski, suggested. flex and tip the new inside knee into the new turn as you come out of the transition. This will help pull the hip into the turn and allow you to extend your new outside leg. This is much the opposite of what we used to do on straight skis, where we kept the hips more over the top of the skis, and flexed and shortened the new OUTSIDE knee and leg. Just remember as you initiate a new turn; your outside gets long, your inside leg gets short.

And that lifting the inside leg thing you've got. Yeah, I did it in the old days too, and it's got to go. It was a product of having to get total pressure on the outside ski to make it perform, of significant variation in inside/outside ski edge angles (don't want to engage the inside ski in that case), and also the need to do diverging steps at the end of a turn to compensate for the carved turn shape limitations those blasted straight ski were saddled with. With shape skis we really don't need to do steps anymore, and even if we do on occasion want to tweak the turn shape, shape skis require our hips to be so much further inside our feet we're not in a position to execute the type of step we could on straight skis. Better to just insert a pre engagement pivot during the transition when need be. And with shape skis we're better able to tip the inside ski on edge too, so it's not as big a problem if it engages.

As far as the outside ski, it's still the place to be. Easiski is right, 50-50 weighting is a generally represents inefficient pressure distribution. The outside leg is the straighter leg, so it provides the stronger force resistance mechanism. The more pressure that gets assigned to the weaker flexed inside leg, the more work it will be to combat the centrifugal forces our turns produce. And the problem only escalates as we sharpen our turns, because at the same time forces are growing, the inside leg is getting shorter and weaker. Of course there are exceptions. one is when situations arise in which dominant pressure on the outside ski is causing that ski to overpower the snow should we ideally be redirecting pressure over to the inside ski. But generally, the outside ski is where we want to direct most pressure.

Have fun learning to ride these new sticks, they really are great fun.

FastMan, Welcome to

snowHeads

Great first post - excellent info and insight!! Very Happy

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The lifting of the inside ski doe not 'have to go'. It is still employed by some racers in certain situations. See Rocca on his way to inning at Wengen in 06!
http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q145/philbski1/Rocca.jpg

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Georgio, Indeed, when watching the racing I see quite a lot of lifting of the inside ski going on and I can think of no reason why this should have to go. With 100% of your weight (for want of a better word) on the outside ski, then that ski, provided the edge grips rather than skids, is going to carve a smaller radius turn than any other weight distribution between the skis. As far as I can tell, it's best to know more than one way of having the skis go where you want - then you can adapt to changes in terrain, speed, and so on. I don't think that moves in ski design have changed the laws of physics in any way. Maybe I'm wrong though!

Check some of the Bode vid
http://youtube.com/v/41llqEmmlQI&eurl= and you'll notice points where the inside ski is lifted indicating 100% weight on outside ski (see the point just before the camera cuts at 3m14s - also at 1m27s and heaps of other places)

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Yeah, I never realised it was the LAW that you can NEVER lift your inside ski. Sure, it's not necessary when carving nicely on perfect groomed piste. But I still find it useful in many situations when conditions are not so favourable. Shock horror, I even do it occasionally on groomed piste - I must be shot immediately! Why does everyone seem so hung up about "correct technique" these days? Especially the obsession with perfect double ski carving.

sometimes lifting the outside ski is acceptable as well.

You know it makes sense.

uktrailmonster, It's so you can look back up the mountain at your perfectly parallel tracks - the "perfect tracks" competition is lined up for the next winter olympics didn't you know.
I suppose though that every single technique has a perfect way of doing it, and by aiming for the perfect way then you can improve aspects of your skiing. But skiing the mountain means using and combining different techniqes depending on what your skiing.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

uktrailmonster, Ive got to agree, there is no perfect technique as the slope changes. I did have a quick thought when reading petemillis post that in order to win a race, the competitor must come as close to perfect style as possible. However, race courses are not perfect so there isnt a fixed style for every course.
I almost never do 'perfect double ski carving' - I much prefer perfect single ski carving rolling eyes

Wear The Fox Hat, yes I am realy enjoying working on my outside edge skiing too. snowHead

A snowHead

different techniques, and knowing when/how to use them is the key.
On bumps, reducing/eliminating tip lead and going for close to equal weighting, with legs close together makes sense to me (same with powder)
On piste, having a more natural stance and putting more on the outside ski makes sense.
Having the ability to switch, or apply other techniques when the need arises helps me.
(when on piste, I don't tend to lift the inside ski, so that if my outside ski loses grip, then I still have a ski on the snow)

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

FastMan, Welcome to Snowheads. Sorry you seem to have got a rather rough response!

As I know that you are a race trainer (please change your details to your current address), I take it that you mean that it's desirable, in order to change from old school to nu skool, to learn to ski with the inside ski on the ground most of the time. After all, in this case we're talking about someone who will have learnt (as I did) to almost always step in some way shape, form or another. thus I assume your comment was in this vein, and not meant to suggest that there were never any situations where you lift the inside ski.

Georgio, Your comment is correct, but may not help the gentleman who asked the original question.

IMO Lifting the inside ski is a good exercise, but a bad habit (one I have still I'm afraid). Also an emergency action.

Carving old skis was almost never done from start to finish of the turn (certainly not in slalom). Now we can, even on short radius. Fair difference I think.

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easiski, Yeah you're right. I'm just getting a bit fed up with all this "old school" v "new school" nonsense. I don't know any half decent skiers in the last 20 years who ever skied with what is now considered "old school" technique. Everyone who started skiing since 1998 seems to assume everyone used to ski with their legs tied together, skidding every turn until the invention of "carving" skis. Actually I can understand that from looking at the covers of some of those early EB "white books" Toofy Grin

Anyway it's not true, honest! Only my mum and an old bloke named Walter from our local ski club ever skied like that. All I noticed going to carvers, was simply how much easier everything became. A bit like moving from skiing plastic to snow. They did not need a radical change of technique. Well not if you could ski reasonably well beforehand at least. They're just shorter, wider and have deeper sidecuts.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Same pre-engagement (diverging) pivot referred to elsewhere?

Comprex,,, if you're directing that question to me,,, yes,,, the same pre-engagement pivot I've referred to elsewhere

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uktrailmonster, there you are - you're too young. I learnt to ski with my feet tied together in leather boots. We don't know how old Old School is. I rather think FastMan, is almost as old as me. We did it while racing too. Shocked

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Straight Skis to Shaped Skis / How should I change me technique?

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