 Poster: A snowHead
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As usual, the subject and topic goes way deep, but for now:
My belief is that we need all various flavours of "unweighting" in good skiing, to manage the pressure of the ski/snow interaction, and to position our joints in anticipation of the next move. And it's one of the biggest myths around today that in modern skiing we no longer need to consider return to neutral by extending our joints.
As a beginner you're taught to extend at the start of the turn, mainly for mobility of the joints, but later in life we try and change this to "no up", but still extend, laterally. The timing of the extension and retraction also changes at a higher level.
Here's Bode talking about an up-unweighting type move in the crud.
Trouble Situations
(Right-Click, Save Target As)
and why the pole-plant is important in re-centreing and re-stacking the joints in the transition:
Pole Plants
(Right-Click, Save Target As)
Now all we need is backtomasters to talk about Pianta Su, and ssh to talk about Ron LeMasters presentation!
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Thu 17-05-07 19:29; edited 2 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Had a look at that link on crud, but could hear only loud and pointless music with a very faint sound of someone talking, in the background. Did I do something wrong. Looks useful, but frustrating....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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that's American crud though, just basically soft snow!
He needs to get into some refrozen European crud 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight,
no back to masters does waist steering... Rick does the Pianta Su IIRC...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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just watching the pole planting video. A favourite topic of mine!
I notice Bode is very much of the North American double pole plant school in what I have watched so far. Does he do this in competition as well?
EDIT: I've watched a bit further now and at greater speed and no steeper terrain, he seems to favour a single pole plant. Guess the use of both in the vid is to cover both preferences for the anticipated audience.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I don't necessarily think it's a North American thing, I seen many racers use it in racing (GS mainly) as a tactic to get the hips up, forward and over.
Also used widely as a drill/exercise to re-centre, and yes, even in the bumps
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Very interesting videos. the trouble is I should be doing my accounts, and I've been totally sidetracked!
I'm glad to see that Bode and Phil McNicholl are saying pretty much the same stuff that I do: the pole plant should be made on the extension. This is totally different to old school skiing when the pole plant was made on the downsink BEFORE the extension and was a positive thump into the snow followed by using the pole for support during the up-unweighting (which was almost a hop). It has seemed to me for some time now (at least 15 years) that the really good skiers have always done this, while most mere mortals were being taught the old stuff. As pointed out, on moderate pisted slopes there may not be a need to use a pole plant and the appropriate position is sufficient. Therein lies the rub. Before you start thinking about planting your poles, you need to be able to keep your arms in a good position, and to have minimal rotation in the turn. What often occurs, perhaps because many holiday skiers want to do what they see the experts doing, is that the novice skier will make a big "opening" movement with their upper body, thrust the pole forward and plant it, allow their inside hand to drop back and then swing the outer arm round creating shoulder and probably hip rotation. Thus, I prefer that the modern skier learns to make nice turns with good balance and correct (or nearly) arm position BEFORE learning to plant their pole. A little push forward with the inside hand after the pole touch will help correct the tendancy to drop the inside hand. As mentioned in the video, the main use of pole planting comes with more advanced terrain such as deep snow, moguls, steeps and racing.
We learnt double pole plants back in about 67/68 or so with short swings. I've used it in race training with a number of trainers ever since, and we see a number of race clubs practising it on the glacier in the summer (or PSB) training.
With regard to extension and flexion during the turn. I like this, and think it's the easiest way for most people to ski, however the modern extension is NOT up-unweighting in the sense that those of us who learnt old school understand it. For this reason I don't like the expression as it suggests the near hop, totally weightless skis of the old days. We had to do it then as the ski had to be pivoted away from the snow and the edges set later. If you watch the Bode video carefully you will see that he transfers his weight to the new turning ski as or just before he extends, which means that the extension is actually a pressured or weighted one. He is clearly getting rebound as he extends, but this is the result of the pressure on the ski during his flexion phase and not a jump in the air which is real up-unweighting.
I'm not 100% sure about the use of the word "upright", he means upright in relation to the slope of course, not in relation to the world in general. 
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easiski, what are double pole plants?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Peter Ross wrote: |
| easiski, what are double pole plants? |
ask Admin to give you a demo.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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scottp, Thanks, I understand now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, Great stuff. But....
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back in about 67/68 or so
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For me personally, I hate using the word "weight" or "unweight" when I teach, I prefer to say something like "move to flatten the skis" I think for me I don't have an issue with people "up-unweighting" correctly (pole plant on the extension), given that it's the foundation of all ski systems (BASI, ESF,CSIA,PSIA etc.).
Also - as Phil McNicholl says, you see good skiers just going from edge to edge, but the really great dynamic skiers involve "proper" extending of all the joints etc., albeit more in the lateral plane than the vertical plane.
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| veeeight wrote: |
For me personally, I hate using the word "weight" or "unweight" when I teach, I prefer to say something like "move to flatten the skis" I think for me I don't have an issue with people "up-unweighting" correctly (pole plant on the extension), given that it's the foundation of all ski systems (BASI, ESF,CSIA,PSIA etc.).
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But that's the whole problem - this is using terminology which once meant something completely different. therefore, if you do lots of "updating" lessons as I do, people who've been skiing for 20+ years will understand something completely different if you say "up-unweighting" . The cure is: DON'T SAY IT! I have not actually come across the term being used by instructors (except the old and retro ones), only by clients who seem to be confused. the point surely is, that with the modern ski there is no need to unweight the ski at all (indeed I would suggest it's undesirable), instead you "change weight" or however you want to put it.
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You know it makes sense.
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My notes from Ron LeMaster's presentation in Boulder on November 9th, 2006:
Ron started with the definitions of a few words that he was going to use for the talk, which focused on the common characteristics across skiers on the world cup and also those characteristics that differ, even at the highest levels.
As always, his points were illustrated using his excellent photography, and in this case a lot of video...
His definitions were:
Transition: From the end of one turn to the start of the next.
Retraction: Pulling skis up or keeping body low through the transition.
Redirection: Turning the skis a bit before the ski bites.
Steering: Anything that makes the ski change the direction its pointed.
Engagement: When the ski bites (WC skiers focus on the engagement in the fall line).
Counter: Body facing to the outside of the turn.
Common characteristics:
Early forward pressure: This is accomplished via ankle flex for some, waist for others.
Early knee angulation: Bringing the knee into the turn early; A-Frame often comes from this knee crank (but, see Counter later in talk).
Outside ski pressure: When the going gets tough, the weight moves to the outside ski. Just about everyone puts some weight on the inside ski, but the harder the snow and more difficult the line, the more pressure on the outside ski. The focus is definitely there.
Quiet upper body: Shoulders don't tip, hands forward and relatively level, always back to "center" (my term).
Next, he gave us a little "comic" relief (if you want to call it that!):
Cautions:
Too low a stance can be dangerous (showed a knee get blown on a compression when the skier was too low)
Keep the chin strap tight (showed a skier get knocked out in a fall when his helmet came off after he hit the snow)
Differences between high-level skiers:
Skiers differ in areas that some proclaim as absolutes, proving that none of these are "right" or "wrong," merely different ways of performing high-level skiing. Note: none of these were consistently faster or slower, and correlations were hard to come by...
Extension/retraction in the transion (some tend to stand up more, others stay low... no difference in outcome in terms of times)
Countered/square stance (some tend to counter more, other to stand more square to the skis. The only correlation seems to me more knee angulation/A Frame in those who counter less).
Progressive steering/Redirection (some redirect dramatically, others are more progressive in their steering [interestingly, all are steering!], and there doesn't seem to be a correlation with better times. The coaches' believe that the current direction is to more progressive steering at least/especially among the women).
He spent a bit of time on each of these, including discussions on the benefits and drawbacks of various choices. He discussed how extending may give your muscles a chance to recover, while staying low may allow you to pressure earlier in the turn. All the skiers target where the ski will engage, with a focus on the fall line. Lower may allow the skier to be more progressive.
Each skier figures out what works best... But, don't rely on others' eyes. Instead, experiment--a lot. Time everything and do it enough that it's not simply a matter of habit versus a new movement. See what's faster.
Why counter? It lines up the body more so that the bigger, stronger muscles can do the work (quads and glutes in skiing). This is often mis-identified as "using your skeleton".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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ssh, He discussed how extending may give your muscles a chance to recover, Quite, the more you move the less stressed certain muscles become.
HOWEVER - not a mention of "up-unweighting"!
Very sensible to define the terms first. do I understand that there was no significant difference in times between those extending and those staying low and retracting? that would seem surprising to me. You can almost see the WC slalom skiers losing time if they have to extend 9ie: open out) for some reason. As the Italians like to say "firma busta"!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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I see a lot of retraction going onin slalom, but much more extension in GS. I believe this gives the power by keeping extended longer into the fall line.
He does talk about "up-unweighting" in his book, but prefaces it by saying that he's only using it as a punter term, as it were :lol Just like using the term "centrifugal force".... :lol
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I'm not an instructor but I like the word crossover which is a very subtle transference of weight as I undertsand it....and its all it needs to be in a lot of cases...
BTW, I couldn't tell you whether I'm old or new school...!! I do know my skiing has changed...for good or bad..??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is this Epicski?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Rock on, dude 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ssh, I've been told that countering causes A-framing because the hips pull the inside knee towards the outside 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Who told you that?
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slikedges, it's actually the other way around. The more countering you do in the belly of the turn, the less knee angulation you can have.
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I love these threads - so much to think about 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| easiski wrote: |
ssh, He discussed how extending may give your muscles a chance to recover, Quite, the more you move the less stressed certain muscles become.
HOWEVER - not a mention of "up-unweighting"!
Very sensible to define the terms first. do I understand that there was no significant difference in times between those extending and those staying low and retracting? that would seem surprising to me. You can almost see the WC slalom skiers losing time if they have to extend 9ie: open out) for some reason. As the Italians like to say "firma busta"!! |
He suggested that there seemed to be national biases (the Canadians, for instance, seemed more likely to extend at transition). IIRC, the extension was for GS, too, and I don't remember whether or not he had SL examples. But, yes, there was no difference in time on the same course for those who extended and those who retracted as their primary transition style.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| JT wrote: |
| I'm not an instructor but I like the word crossover which is a very subtle transference of weight as I undertsand it....and its all it needs to be in a lot of cases... |
"Crossover" is used to describe a more "up-and-over" transition, while "crossunder" describes a retraction move that pulls the skis under the skier without an upward movement of the body to get over the skis.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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ssh, I can see how with more countering you'd get less outside knee angulation but surely the position of the hip would tend to pull the inside thigh and knee towards the outside one, so the 'A' would come not from the outside knee going in, but from the inside knee not going in (and instead tending towards the outside knee)
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| DB wrote: |
| Is this Epicski? |
only if you make longer posts, have a different POV to at least 2 prior posters, and have a minimum of 12 pairs of skis that you use everyday. Oh you also need to ski 100+ days per season.
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You know it makes sense.
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paulhothersall, Come on, contribute to the debate from the racing perspective
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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If we're looking for new terminology, would it be remotely useful to think of the pole plant on extension timing in terms of pole basket to boot distance?
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Poster: A snowHead
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slikedges, No. All will be explained in March!
comprex, that is very Epic isn't it???
ssh, I can certainly see that in GS there might not be very much difference (although Tomba had a marked tenedency to retraction, but that was pre-modern skis anyway). If he didn't have slalom examples then that would explain it. I would put money on it that any extension in slalom will cost you time. Actually there was one newcomer on sunday who was extending a lot - can't remember who though - made him look pretty novicy though.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| ssh, I can see how with more countering you'd get less outside knee angulation but surely the position of the hip would tend to pull the inside thigh and knee towards the outside one, so the 'A' would come not from the outside knee going in, but from the inside knee not going in (and instead tending towards the outside knee) |
Hip rotation is more difficult when a skier is countering, so your shins tend to be more or less parallel. At high angles, you'll always get some, though. More often, it's the result of being lazy with the inside leg rather than the hip pulling the inside leg in that direction.
For example, Bob is countering in these turns, but his inside leg isn't being pulled towards the outside. I admit readily that he's not skiing at WC GS speeds!
Lots of counter here, but the shins are pretty parallel:
(Thanks to Ron LeMaster for that photo montage.)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Really this thread has gone a bit too epic for me but how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud without unweighting unless you were abolutely maching it?
Re poleplanting - I learnt at the PSB that there is a certain speed beyond which it is futile for me to attempt it as chances are it will completely throw me off rather than help. I assume that the world cup guys can plant with precision no matter what the speed. Is this right?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
how would you ski e.g.heavy wet snow/crud
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Tell me I would love to know as well 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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In normal skiing we all bob up and down a bit. End of story.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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fatbob, retraction turns in heavy wet snow/crud is actually a pretty bomb-proof turn, and you can be going very slowly to do it. I'm sorry that it's gone "a bit too epic". Linds, if you ski with your skis along the direction that they point instead of insisting on turning them, you'll find that you can do just that.
Floppy the Snotman, I think that's a bit misleading. While we may from certain perspectives, I'm not sure that we should be satisfied with our skiing at that level. I know that I have spent quite a bit of effort taking that up-and-down out of my skiing (not that I'm there, yet, mind you).
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ssh, You can give me a personal demonstration at the EOSB 
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ssh, I have to bob, otherwise the knees complain
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Coming back into skiing afterr many years, I've found this to be one of the best threads I've read here! And now I wish it was snowing!! Can't wait to try out my new found knowledge!
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Floppy the Snotman, We could book ssh, for a joint Little and Large lesson at EOSB
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FAQ
