 Poster: A snowHead
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| hang11 wrote: |
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| he crouched, dragged his hand and whipped into a full 90 degree +/- carve |
Sick !!
Shame you messed it up for him though |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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+1
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Scooter in Seattle wrote: |
| Yank to yank: I'll try not to add to the sanctimony, but you ain't gonna win this one, especially here. Consider going to Home Depot on President's Day instead of the hill, and keep your powder dry for a day where there are far fewer obstacles. I hate it when anybody ahead (including people I ski with, unfortunately) takes the entire width of the run, I think it is inconsiderate as hell. Nonetheless, we gotta avoid 'em, pure and simple. This isn't the hill to die on. |
Genuinely, I’ve never been riled by someone using the width of the piste, whether they be nervous beginnings in a lesson or someone skiing super-g turns. I didn’t even realise it was an issue until reading people angry about it on Snowheads.
I just slow a little and pick the opportunity to pass.
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| Quote: |
That doesn't mean the guy didn't do something dumb and not in his best interests of self preservation.
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This.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@bumpybrandy,
He was unwise and inconsiderate but you were breaking the rules. That's the end of the conversation really.
It is also unwise to slam your breaks on randomly when driving. But the driver who goes into the back of you is the one who is liable.
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@Snow&skifan,
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pick the opportunity to pass.
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I misjudged this the other week (I have poor spatial sense) and caused a wayward skier to fall. I've been beating myself up ever since, it was definitely my fault. Luckily we were both going very slowly though, in a sense, that was part of the problem, I had scrubbed off too much speed to be able to pass at all and shouldn't have attempted to do so.
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Last year a skier (who was a total Jerry) slammed into the back of me when I was throwing down a eurocarve. I slid at full speed into a bank of snow at the side of the groomer and snapped the nose off my board.
It was a 3 year old yes optimistic, and yes honoured the lifetime warranty no questions asked, and because there was no stock in the country they just gave me all my money back 
So I bought a korua pencil which is even better at euro carving.
I was pretty happy with how it all turned out and somehow walked away from that crash without even a bruise to show for it.
I did eat it on the korua last season and end up with a bit of brain damage though. That wasn’t fun.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The Rules are clear regarding the onus of the uphill relative to the downhill user; The OP clearly understands this, hence his question. The question the OP poses concerns a sudden and unexpected manoeuvre at 90 degrees across the slope and into his path with no warning. Had the border suddenly turned and proceeded at an angle downhill, the collision would have been avoided as the OP was a safe distance and would have allowed to manoeuvre around the border.
Is there not some onus on the person turning suddenly at 90 degrees across the slope??
There is an onus to stop in a safe place on the slope. also to exercise care when entering onto or at piste intersections
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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*sigh* This just makes me wish I'd learned to perfect my full on boned-out eurocarve when I had less mass and more core... being able to do the full 360 is so nice.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Is there not some onus on the person turning suddenly at 90 degrees across the slope??
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Hard to lay down rules. It's like the collision regulations for boats. There is a "give way boat" and a "stand on boat" and the latter should hold his course. BUT - it is the responsibility of both to avoid a collision. Entire alcohol-fuelled arguments in sailing club bars can follow from these encounters - or long judicial processes when it's serious. I'd say that a downhill skier does have a responsibility not to do daft stuff if he can help it, and a "look over the shoulder" is well worth while. If I'm just skiing down one half of a wide piste and then see my group waiting on the other side, I would always look, and perhaps even hand signal, before breaking my turning pattern and heading across.
I think what annoyed us here was the OP's self-righteous assumption that he was in the right and we'd all agree and wag fingers at snowboarders. From my own long years of experience of skiing (and a little snowboarding) I don't find boarders any more likely than skiers to do daft stuff. If the piste is narrow, and you can't safely give a downhill user a wide berth, then you just stay behind. Like you do behind a caravan on a winding road in Devon.
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| Quote: |
Is there not some onus on the person turning suddenly at 90 degrees across the slope??
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No
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You know it makes sense.
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I decided to model what might have happened.
Assuming a snowboard with a circular sidecut with a radius of about 9.5m (Snowboarders watching, please correct this if it's unreasonable), thrown onto its edge at 45 degrees, carving a perfect 90 degree turn, the radius should be about 6.7m. Let's assume the initial "average-to-slow speed" is about 15mph or 24kph or 6.7ms⁻¹ and the boarder maintains their speed throughout the turn (in reality they would slow down making it easier). In that case, the relative motion to what the OP anticipated would look like this:
One second (that's quite a long time to not react) after the snowboarder has commenced the turn, he has moved 3m to his left and still accelerating and is 1m further up the slope than anticipated. That gives the skier around half a second to make a say (30 degree) to the right to pass behind the snowboarder. I don't think anyone who is skiing down an otherwise empty slope and is happy to be within about 7m of someone else should struggle with that (and if they would then increase the distance!)
Yes the snowboarder was an idiot for assuming that there was no one behind/anyone could avoid them, but I still can't see this collision as anything other than avoidable.
If anyone wants to mess about with different parameters:
| Code: |
#!/usr/bin/python
import matplotlib.pyplot as plt
import numpy as np
from math import floor
sidecut_radius = 9.5
speed = 6.7
edge_angle = np.pi/4
r = sidecut_radius * np.cos(edge_angle)
arc = r * np.pi/2
duration = arc / speed
t = np.linspace(0, duration, 50)
t_to_theta = (np.pi/2) / duration
theta = t * t_to_theta
x = r*(np.cos(theta) - 1)
y = r*(np.sin(theta) - theta)
def x_to_t(x):
return [np.arccos(1 + min(max(i/r,-1),0))/t_to_theta for i in x]
def t_to_x(t):
return -r*(1-np.cos(t * t_to_theta))
fig, ax = plt.subplots()
ax.set(xlabel='lateral position (m)',
ylabel='relative longitudinal position (m)',
title=f'Speed={speed:.2}m/s; radius={r:.2}m; duration={duration:.2}s')
ax.set_xlim(left=floor(min(x)), right=0)
ax.set_ylim(top=0, bottom=floor(min(y)))
ax.grid()
ax.plot(x,y)
secax = ax.secondary_xaxis('top', functions=(x_to_t, t_to_x))
secax.set_xlabel('time (s)')
plt.show() |
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Wed 21-02-24 14:35; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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None of this would have happened if the OP had clicked his poles
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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There is so many things that the OP has stated which prove him guilty in the FIS (and snowheads) court. Not that he will have it it seems. Why bother asking a question and not accepting other answers?
Like @tsgsh has said, the turn did not start at 90 degrees and would have taken quite a while to get to that.
Still. downhill person was a snowboarder so clearly his fault. Thankfully the manhattan man in him let the poor boarder have it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| hang11 wrote: |
| None of this would have happened if the OP had clicked his poles |
I always assumed snowboarders were immune to pole clicks because they have their earbuds in and are listening to bangin' tunes (or whatever the current term is). Therefore, all their comments on the pole clicking thread are to keep us skiers bickering at each other rather than blaming snowboarders for everything.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@tsgsh, good work!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| hang11 wrote: |
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| he crouched, dragged his hand and whipped into a full 90 degree +/- carve |
Sick !!
Shame you messed it up for him though |
Ha.
I honestly love to see snowboarders lay down a carve. It's beautiful.
That said, I ski like I cycle and drive. I ALWAYS expect people ahead of me to do stupid stuff.
I'm rarely disappointed, let's put it that way.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Pasigal,
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That said, I ski like I cycle and drive. I ALWAYS expect people ahead of me to do stupid stuff.
I'm rarely disappointed, let's put it that way.
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This...There's no point lying in a hospital bed thinking "well I was in the right" when a quick glance (or pole click ) could have saved the day.
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| tsgsh wrote: |
| hang11 wrote: |
| None of this would have happened if the OP had clicked his poles |
I always assumed snowboarders were immune to pole clicks because they have their earbuds in and are listening to bangin' tunes (or whatever the current term is). Therefore, all their comments on the pole clicking thread are to keep us skiers bickering at each other rather than blaming snowboarders for everything. |
Bats, whales etc use clicks like sonar. It’s the vibrations not the noise, so for me at least my snowboarder spidey sense would have picked up on the early warning anyway.
So click away people with poles.
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@bumpybrandy, Just act like you're from France in future and don't utter a word of English after you've detangled yourself even if the boarder is lying on the piste twitching and in pain from your obvious error - just huff a lot and smugly ski off into the distance negating all assumed responsibility. . . 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Pasigal wrote: |
| hang11 wrote: |
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| he crouched, dragged his hand and whipped into a full 90 degree +/- carve |
Sick !!
Shame you messed it up for him though |
Ha.
I honestly love to see snowboarders lay down a carve. It's beautiful.
That said, I ski like I cycle and drive. I ALWAYS expect people ahead of me to do stupid stuff.
I'm rarely disappointed, let's put it that way. |
What about people behind you.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Timmycb5 wrote: |
@bumpybrandy, it sounds like you must have been passing him fairly closely for this to happen, which under the FIS rules, would make you culpable for the collision.
A skier/boarder is also perfectly within their rights to use not 45, not 55, but 100% of the slope.
Yes, unexpected turns make if more difficult to pass, but that is why it is quite clear in the rules that you need to leave sufficient room to react to these. |
The FIS rules are frankly a nonsense on this subject. If the marginally downhill skier/rider has unrestricted right to do any manoeuvre what so ever, no matter how reckless or inconsiderate and any bad outcomes is everyone else's fault, then as others have said you are in the world of all going down single file.
It is different if it is a novice clearly of limited control, but when it is a reasonably competent to advanced rider, some degree of common sense and simple courtesy is required when making a major change of direction / speed, how is this actually any different from starting from a standing start recklessly?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Pyramus, that would, of course, be utterly unworkable. The “general flow of traffic” would entirely depend on the ability of the “general traffic”. Suppose an intermediate skier is picking his/her way down a steep red by traversing it, but a group of local ski racers happens upon the slope. Should said intermediate try and adopt fall line carving turns?
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| haggishunter wrote: |
| Timmycb5 wrote: |
@bumpybrandy, it sounds like you must have been passing him fairly closely for this to happen, which under the FIS rules, would make you culpable for the collision.
A skier/boarder is also perfectly within their rights to use not 45, not 55, but 100% of the slope.
Yes, unexpected turns make if more difficult to pass, but that is why it is quite clear in the rules that you need to leave sufficient room to react to these. |
The FIS rules are frankly a nonsense on this subject. If the marginally downhill skier/rider has unrestricted right to do any manoeuvre what so ever, no matter how reckless or inconsiderate and any bad outcomes is everyone else's fault, then as others have said you are in the world of all going down single file.
It is different if it is a novice clearly of limited control, but when it is a reasonably competent to advanced rider, some degree of common sense and simple courtesy is required when making a major change of direction / speed, how is this actually any different from starting from a standing start recklessly? |
If you are skiing THAT close to another skier that you are unable to take evasive action to avoid collision, then you are too close. It’s literally that simple.
If the slope is rammed, then everyone should be skiing at such a speed to still be able to do this.
Any arguments against this is similar to people saying tailgating at 80mph on the motorway is fine.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Timmycb5 wrote: |
| Any arguments against this is similar to people saying tailgating at 80mph on the motorway is fine. |
The motorway analogy again. But isn't it also similar to someone saying pulling straight out into the fast lane without checking their mirrors is also fine, when clearly it is not?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Pyramus, that's why you leave a braking space
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Poster: A snowHead
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The driving/motorway analogy is interesting, but largely invalidated for many reasons including: rear view mirrors, indicators and the fact that we do not allow beginners on motorways. There is however a comparison to be madewith driving law and changing the FIS rules. It would undoubtedly be safer if all countries drove on the same side of the road (obviously the left) but a change is not going to happen (at least until a huge change in technology) as with the case with the FIS rules. To change then piecemeal at this stage would cause confusion and additional accidents. Just think of the translation and interpretation issues.
Also the OPs crash happened under the existing rules not some worthy but ultimately fanciful amended rules.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| haggishunter wrote: |
If the marginally downhill skier/rider has unrestricted right to do any manoeuvre what so ever, no matter how reckless or inconsiderate and any bad outcomes is everyone else's fault, then as others have said you are in the world of all going down single file.
It is different if it is a novice clearly of limited control, but when it is a reasonably competent to advanced rider, some degree of common sense and simple courtesy is required when making a major change of direction / speed, how is this actually any different from starting from a standing start recklessly? |
This. It's also worth noting that at some degree of negligence by the downhill skier/rider, The Rule will no longer offer them total or even adequate legal protection should they bring an action. (see: Contributory Negligence)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Pyramus wrote: |
| Timmycb5 wrote: |
| Any arguments against this is similar to people saying tailgating at 80mph on the motorway is fine. |
The motorway analogy again. But isn't it also similar to someone saying pulling straight out into the fast lane without checking their mirrors is also fine, when clearly it is not? |
Not really, because skiers don’t have indicators or mirrors, nor does it say in the FIS rules that they have to use the skiing equivalents of.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Sorry to hear about that and I guess many of us would struggle. I had a couple of near misses with other skiers making very abrupt and silly turns recently. But I had (just) enough room to avoid them. Even though they were being very stupid it would still have been my responsibility if we’d collided. And this is what I try to drum into my kids. Both along the lines of DBAD (don’t be a dick) in terms of sudden and unpredictable turns and also being aware that people can make sudden and unpredictable turns. Usually snowboarders on their heel sides. But also kids and just about anyone.
I’d be pissed too if that is any consolation. But I hope I’d also know I was, however unjustly I felt it was , wrong.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Timmycb5 wrote: |
| Pyramus wrote: |
| Timmycb5 wrote: |
| Any arguments against this is similar to people saying tailgating at 80mph on the motorway is fine. |
The motorway analogy again. But isn't it also similar to someone saying pulling straight out into the fast lane without checking their mirrors is also fine, when clearly it is not? |
Not really, because skiers don’t have indicators or mirrors, nor does it say in the FIS rules that they have to use the skiing equivalents of. |
I quote from the FIS rules:
The development of carving skis and snowboards allows their users to carve and turn upwards on the slopes. Hence they move opposite to the general downhill traffic. They must, therefore, make sure in time that they can do so without endangering themselves and others.
This is pretty much what the OP said happened.
As I've pointed out before, whether they turn "upwards" or directly perpendicular across the slope, we are talking negligible margins here which is why the current wording of the FIS rule can be improved. The fact is, someone can carve straight across the "general downhill traffic" and endanger others. This is basically what this comment from the FIS rules is getting at.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I think he’s gone off to cry
Surely must be a parody account?
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If this
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The development of carving skis and snowboards allows their users to carve and turn upwards on the slopes. Hence they move opposite to the general downhill traffic. They must, therefore, make sure in time that they can do so without endangering themselves and others.
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is what the FIS Rules actually state - and I must confess that, to my shame, I haven't read them in full  - surely the OP and
Pyramus have a point?
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Much safer to ski the fall line where everyone can see where you are headed than this high speed GS carving business
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Pyramus, thanks for the link. Now in my downloads file for me to read, mark, learn and inwardly digest. In full. Belatedly.
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FAQ
long snake at 5mph and take up the entire slopes making it impossible to pass.
