 Poster: A snowHead
|
FORGIVE me if this has been covered before but I am a new member and only had my first experience with this problem yesterday. I'm 52yo, skiing since the 70's, aging expert bumps, trees, steeps fanatic, etc. Yesterday in VT on a wide groomer heading to meet up with my son in a park I was cruising at a safe distance behind and to the left of a snowboarder. He was heading basically straight down, goofy foot, at average-to-slow speed, on the center-left of the run. Suddenly, without even the most minute head turn or glance back over his shoulder he crouched, dragged his hand and whipped into a full 90 degree +/- carve crossing directly in front of my line and before I could blink I had slammed right into him. Because of his carving stance his body was thankfully at the height of my midsection and his helmet was already past me, so the contact was simply me slamming chest first into the side of his body and basically lifting him up and carrying him down the hill until we came to a stop. His board was intertwined with my skis and I ended up falling backwards as we came to a stop while he slid away and did the same. That is when he screamed and put out his hands out as if to ask what was I thinking? Having grown up in the 70's/80's in Manhattan I was pretty clear and responsive in letting him know what I was thinking. His retort: "You were behind me!", as if a driver who suddenly jams his wheel hard left across a three-lane highway and gets T-boned by the driver in the far left lane is the victim because he was in front.
I bring this up not because this was such a big deal (although if I had been a 4 foot tall kid and his helmet and head hit me in the face it would have been a very big deal), but rather because as I started to pay more attention to what boarders were doing as I rode lifts throughout that day I observed that a large percentage of them were deep-deep carving back and forth, taking up to 40 or 50% of entire runs. When the runs were relatively empty, I guess fun is fun, but in general this seems like a real messed up trend. If they were doing 45 or 55 degree turns fine, but this is 90 degrees and sometimes more, even headed back uphill! I guess I've grown numb to the kicking my skis on the lift and the pushing any snow off the steeps. This however seems as dangerous as it is inconsiderate, and generally inconsistent with the spirit of the skiers' code being that everyone traveling down a run should be moving in the same general direction.
Has anyone heard of any efforts, or does anyone have any suggestions to get mountains or patrollers to educate or guide boarders so as to prevent these first shots from being fired in Board War II? "This time, it's perpendicular!"
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
Be more careful next time, you could really hurt someone boring straight down the piste not paying attention like that.
This is utter nonsense:
| Quote: |
the spirit of the skiers' code being that everyone traveling down a run should be moving in the same general direction.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
well first of all good that nothing serious happened.
As a snowboarder, when i intent to do carving turns , i always check the slopes who is behind.
If you see some videos in youtube, from Ryan Knapton, James Cherry etc, they always mention to check out before you start the carving turns.
I experienced also many times "almost" accidents from people who comes behind me, even if i am going slow and fast straight (either boarders or skiers)
It makes me crazy when i make small straight turns at the side of the slope, a couple of metres of the link borders of the slope (regular) and even so, someone comes behind me really fast....i left all the slope in front of me free, but nope...he comes from my blind side....
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
You are joking right? HaHa, how would you know if I was 'boring straight'? I was so mellowly cruising off to the left that I was basically just standing up gliding. What should I pay attention to, the thoughts in his head?! His turn signals? Are you saying that people must now stay clear of snowboarders for thirty feet to their right and left and behind them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Every slope user has to leave sufficient space for voluntary and involuntary movements by the slope user who is ahead. This would take account of a slope user who falls or who has themselves to take evasive action on account of actions by another user further down the slope. If you haven’t left sufficient space for that, then it is pretty clear who is to blame.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
Understood Turms. I think we have general agreement. In that light this becomes even more egregious because I was on his front side. He was goofy and I was to his left just up the hill. One tiny glance by him and he would have seen that he had plenty of room for a regular turn but not for a slingshot toward the tree line. I've also been boating and jet skiing all my life and I NEVER turn without sweeping everything in the direction I want to go, from behind me to in front of me. Pilots who are alone in the sky still dip their wings before turning just in case someone is beside them. It's common sense.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Ski lots, I don't think you realize that Vermont is not Tignes. What's considered a wide run in Vermont as literally at best 100 feet from trees left to trees right, not a bald mountain where you don't have to come near anyone. Should we all ski single file? The guy crossed twenty feet into my line and still didn't even see me by the time we made contact. He was looking down, in his own world, like you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@bumpybrandy, it sounds like you must have been passing him fairly closely for this to happen, which under the FIS rules, would make you culpable for the collision.
A skier/boarder is also perfectly within their rights to use not 45, not 55, but 100% of the slope.
Yes, unexpected turns make if more difficult to pass, but that is why it is quite clear in the rules that you need to leave sufficient room to react to these.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
@bumpybrandy, I think you will find that the FIS code makes no distinction between countries or width of piste (except in terms of where to stop). I’ve personally skied on 4 continents and many many different ski stations. The width of pistes/trails in Scotland can literally be zero at times (and you have to slide/walk over the heather). Seems to me that the FIS code works pretty well in all contexts.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I'll tell you what, I'm willing to be convinced and to take responsibility If I hear it from anyone who skis the Northeastern US regularly, let alone on a busy holiday weekend, and can explain to me what circumstances other than intentional disregard for the safety of others that could cause anyone to literally turn on a dime 90 degrees across a slope without looking at all, other than perhaps a moose running towards them?
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
| Quote: |
The guy crossed twenty feet into my line
|
But "my line" suggests that you thought you had the right to hold your course, regardless of what the guy in front did. Were you assuming he'd hold his course too?
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
Gleaning more information from you (not jumping into a snowheads pile-on against you, where lemmings copy their online heroes  ).
Before the collision could you’ve skied way to the right of his trajectory and you had taken that route?
Prior to impact were you more or less skiing/boarding for a period at the same ‘altitude’ on the piste?
Or were you descending at a much faster rate than him throughout?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| Ski lots, I don't think you realize that Vermont is not Tignes. |
When your original post referred to VT I naturally assumed you were referring to Val Thorens as this is a UK based forum where most people ski in the Alps! 
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
What's considered a wide run in Vermont as literally at best 100 feet from trees left to trees right, not a bald mountain where you don't have to come near anyone. Should we all ski single file? The guy crossed twenty feet into my line and still didn't even see me by the time we made contact. He was looking down, in his own world, like you. |
As @Ski lots said in a later post the FIS code makes no distinction between countries or width of piste. It's for the uphill skier (you in this case) to allow sufficient space for the downhill skier/boarder to make any voluntary or involuntary movements. If the piste is particularly narrow somewhere the onus is on you to hang back sufficiently to avoid the type of collision you experienced.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
“Other than a perhaps a moose running towards them” - unfortunately the FIS can’t list every single type of animal or for that matter all other circumstances that might make a a slope user take evasive action, so to keep things simple it just says voluntary and involuntary actions. I have a little sympathy in that it would be nice if all slope users looked all around them before taking action - but they don’t.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
No, my line means the line I was traveling along before he turned at all. Believe me I would have happily abandoned that line and the whole matter had there been any opportunity to do so before smashing into a crouching carving roadblock whose downhill speed went from cruising speed to literally zero mph.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| I'll tell you what, I'm willing to be convinced and to take responsibility If I hear it from anyone who skis the Northeastern US regularly, let alone on a busy holiday weekend, and can explain to me what circumstances other than intentional disregard for the safety of others that could cause anyone to literally turn on a dime 90 degrees across a slope without looking at all, other than perhaps a moose running towards them? |
Unlike the roads in our different countries, the FIS rules for the mountain apply equally everywhere.
Would it have been sensible for the boarder to do a “lifesaver” check? Yes. Would it have been courteous? Yes? Was it his fault that you crashed into him because you were skiing too close to be able to take evasive action? Nope. That’s on you I’m afraid, friend.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| Snow&skifan wrote: |
Gleaning more information from you (not jumping into a snowheads pile-on against you, where lemmings copy their online heroes ).
Before the collision could you’ve skied way to the right of his trajectory and you had taken that route?
Prior to impact were you more or less skiing/boarding for a period at the same ‘altitude’ on the piste?
Or were you descending at a much faster rate than him throughout? |
Thank you for your question Snow&skifan. 1. At the bottom of the run a few hundred yards down was a fork where I was to take the left turn in order to get to my destination. Had I not stayed left I would have had to cross in front of others across the run to travel in the correct direction. 2. No, I was never at an even elevation with him prior to the collision. I was moving off to the left edge of the run. We did not collide because I was gaining speed. We collided when he arrived shockingly fast in front of me doing zero downhill speed. I look forward to your reply. P.S. - My primary point here is not that he was a dummy for not checking his surroundings before doing a maneuver that nobody in his surrounding area could have avoided. It is primarily that as a general rule carving 90 degrees back and forth across a run is incongruous with a safe skiing environment IMO. Thank you for your consideration.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
PS - Additional answer to question #1. I could definitely have skied to the right of him regardless of my destination if there had been any indication that would have been advisable, but had he in his insular world view chosen to carve backside instead of frontside the result would have been the same. I wasn't skiing around him in either case. I was simply skiing on the same run as him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
Age of dood on tray?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
tray meaning snowboard? probably 18 or 19yo
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| Snow&skifan wrote: |
Gleaning more information from you (not jumping into a snowheads pile-on against you, where lemmings copy their online heroes ).
Before the collision could you’ve skied way to the right of his trajectory and you had taken that route?
Prior to impact were you more or less skiing/boarding for a period at the same ‘altitude’ on the piste?
Or were you descending at a much faster rate than him throughout? |
Thank you for your question Snow&skifan. 1. At the bottom of the run a few hundred yards down was a fork where I was to take the left turn in order to get to my destination. Had I not stayed left I would have had to cross in front of others across the run to travel in the correct direction. 2. No, I was never at an even elevation with him prior to the collision. I was moving off to the left edge of the run. We did not collide because I was gaining speed. We collided when he arrived shockingly fast in front of me doing zero downhill speed. I look forward to your reply. P.S. - My primary point here is not that he was a dummy for not checking his surroundings before doing a maneuver that nobody in his surrounding area could have avoided. It is primarily that as a general rule carving 90 degrees back and forth across a run is incongruous with a safe skiing environment IMO. Thank you for your consideration. |
This doesn’t actually answer the question, nor does it tie up. You were either at the same speed and only his turn made a change in speed, or you were going faster.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Sounds like an old skier unable to react as fast as a young boarder.
Leave a bigger gap.
Chalk it up as a learning lesson.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| No, my line means the line I was traveling along before he turned at all. Believe me I would have happily abandoned that line and the whole matter had there been any opportunity to do so before smashing into a crouching carving roadblock whose downhill speed went from cruising speed to literally zero mph. |
So was this dude straightlining the fall line, or linking toeside/heelside turns before your incident? If the latter, he's cranked a turn deeper than you expected and you've not left space to react. Snowboards don't turn on a dime, it's not the same as chucking in a hockey stop in the middle of the piste. For what it's worth he should have looked up-piste before, but FIS rules put the onus on you as the uphill skier to avoid.
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| I'll tell you what, I'm willing to be convinced and to take responsibility If I hear it from anyone who skis the Northeastern US regularly, let alone on a busy holiday weekend, and can explain to me what circumstances other than intentional disregard for the safety of others that could cause anyone to literally turn on a dime 90 degrees across a slope without looking at all, other than perhaps a moose running towards them? |
Try posting this on TGR and see what response you get.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
"Prior to impact were you more or less skiing/boarding for a period at the same ‘altitude’ on the piste?
Or were you descending at a much faster rate than him throughout?"
We were not at the same altitude at any point prior to impact. I was above/behind him. We intersected as I continued my normal travel down the mountain and he redirected his directly across it.
Finally, I state unequivocally that if his turn were a common or even aggressive carve, i.e. part of the enjoyable and safe process where one turns back and forth across the fall line to control their speed, it would have never even come close to being an issue. My entire point here is that when I say 90 degrees I am not being hyperbolic.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You can't assume that anyone - skier or boarder - in front of you will behave the way you expect. The rules are very clear on this, notwithstanding the notes on rule 5 and carving, which you'll note is not specific to snowboarding or skiing.
Drop the attitude, learn to ski safely before you hurt yourself or someone else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
|
@bumpybrandy, you aren't going to get the answer you are looking for. It was your fault
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
"
Finally, I state unequivocally that if his turn were a common or even aggressive carve, i.e. part of the enjoyable and safe process where one turns back and forth across the fall line to control their speed, it would have never even come close to being an issue. My entire point here is that when I say 90 degrees I am not being hyperbolic. |
In which case you must have been uphill and to the left of him. What we have tried to explain, and what you seem unwilling accept, is that under the FIS rules, you, as the uphill skier, and completely responsible in this example to avoid collision.
As I said above, yes it would have been sensible and courteous for him to look uphill, but he was under no compulsion to whatsoever.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
With that I take my leave, genuinely grateful for and considering the input. Nonetheless, PHIL I shall note for what it's worth that I have only come into physical contact with another skier one other time in my multiple thousands of days of skiing, and that while I am taking into consideration the input of the others here besides yourself, I am left wondering whether the form of carving I am describing is something that has not been seen by the majority of people yet. It is quite a new trend/style that makes slalom carving look like straight lining.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@bumpybrandy, he might have been trying to do a “euro carve” (was his body parallel to the slope?). Either way, the FIS rules are clear.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
|
Yes, parallel. I think the FIS rules, just like the R&A rules do, will need to consider an amendment in consideration of "euro carving" otherwise what this means effectively is that no person on a ski mountain can ever come anywhere near, nor pass another person because the entire width of any typical run now belongs to the unreadable intent of the boarder. I'll say this: If I were ever skiing down a run and decided to simply turn over my ankles like Pirmin Zurbriggen and cross perpendicular to the slope, never even motioning as if I ever intended to travel downhill again and someone minding their own business behind me were unable to react in time to something so incomprehensibly unpredictable, I would be shocked if they didn't take me out and send me down the hill like a deer crossing a highway.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
@bumpybrandy Euro carve or not, I’m afraid it’s still on you.
Was the slope busy, by the way? Because I can’t imagine anyone attempting a euro carve on a busy slope
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
It was a three-day holiday weekend here known as President's Day and the mountain was the busiest I have seen all year, particularly since its finally snowed a bit. This particular run was in a lower more spread out area of the mountain but certainly there were multiple people in the immediate area. This particular run was not packed though the way many other were that day.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
Less than three weeks since the last entry in the Whose fault?" thread. That only ran to 9 pages.
If someone downslope from you makes an unexpected turn, no matter how radical, and you can't avoid it, e.g., by turning in the opposite direction and passing on the other side, then you are too close.
By all means swear at them for skiing like an idiot and forcing you to do so, and arguably violating rule 1 ("Respect for others"). Nevertheless you remain accountable for avoiding the collision (rule 4).
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
|
so, having participated in and witnessed diverse and typical resort skiing environments throughout my five decades in the us and canada including having viewed ad nauseam the average crowded weekend day on a popular mountain where people of varying ages and ability levels are all basically cooperating with each other and using common sense and average levels of spatial awareness and courtesy to make sure that nobody's crashing into anyone (except teenagers bombing through crowds) I find myself asking, if all the FIS officials and 'assumed risk' sports attorney safety experts truly understand what "euro-carving" is and have seen it in person, and nonetheless maintain that what you say is a just determination because of your solely literal review of the skiers code of responsibility then you must also be willing to play this out to its logical conclusion and state that no skier in motion on any named run on the mountain may ever occupy any location that can be reached by another rider who is in front them by any distance no matter how slight at which the skier would be unable to prevent a collision, regardless of whether the downhill rider has determined to intentionally redirect their travel and momentum in whatever direction and at whatever speed is necessary to smash right into the uphill skier causing grave bodily harm. That is literally what you are saying the net effect of the rules is and intends to always be. If a rider in front of you intends to kamikaze right into you and you are not able to have pre-assumed this possibility and avoided it with your olympian level physical prowess (Grandma) then you are the culpable party. Well this is news that will make many disgruntled parties happy to hear. You can apparently just pick off any uphill parties like a linebacker. Then afterward you can even sue them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
Learn to be safe on the slopes. It's simple enough, you just need to understand the rules and then follow them. Lessons may help?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
|
what a cop out.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yank to yank: I'll try not to add to the sanctimony, but you ain't gonna win this one, especially here. Consider going to Home Depot on President's Day instead of the hill, and keep your powder dry for a day where there are far fewer obstacles. I hate it when anybody ahead (including people I ski with, unfortunately) takes the entire width of the run, I think it is inconsiderate as hell. Nonetheless, we gotta avoid 'em, pure and simple. This isn't the hill to die on.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Yeah you're in the wrong per FIS rules/skier's code. You were clearly not giving him enough space / yourself enough reaction time when he changed direction. Sucks but as you're playing the hoary old grey beard card maybe your reactions aren't what they once were. Funny with all your expert experience you were able to note him crouch etc and move 20 ft laterally without any anticipation that something was going to happen.
That doesn't mean the guy didn't do something dumb and not in his best interests of self preservation. That happens all the time with people who don't shoulder check or look uphill when starting etc as if everyone else on the hill perfectly follows the code.
If there were to be a rule change ( spoiler there won't be) it would need to incorporate all sorts of other behaviour from cattrack weavers to ski classes playing blind follow my leader to overterrained people traversing across entire slopes.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
|
No rules broken, but neither of you seem to have had consideration for each other. If I am coming close to another slope user, then I give them a wide birth & overtake. Same as I felt someone as over taking me, I would try to give just a bit more room and maneuver away from them. So I would not say anyone is directly responsible.... but you did say safe distance, so I would question was you a safe distance if you could not avoid a collision.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| bumpybrandy wrote: |
| he crouched, dragged his hand and whipped into a full 90 degree +/- carve |
Sick !!
Shame you messed it up for him though
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
