 Poster: A snowHead
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| Pyramus wrote: |
I agree in this particular example, she was cutting it too close. But it is a more general point I am making. There are examples (a bit like in the video in the "Whose fault" thread) where there is apparently "loads of space" and suddenly that space disappears with someone cutting a hard carve right across a narrow piste. The rule amendment actually introduces some more common sense into preventing mindless manoeuvres. |
Reading some of the stuff you've posted above, it's frankly so crackers I can only assume you're trolling but just picking up on this bit.....
Firstly, in the video, there's no debate....someone fell over, a skier then straighlined through them. It's NEVER the fault of the person on the floor in this situation. If you're skiing so close and so fast that you can't stop or change direction if someone falls then it's your fault. That's not to say all collisions can be avoided if you want to actually ski on a crowded piste and enjoy it but it's her fault on this clip, absolutely no debate.
In terms of there being loads of space and it disappears because of someone cutting a hard carve across a narrow piste.....
The places I see this are inexperienced people who suddenly want to check their speed a bit so they stick a couple of "needless" turns in.....the thing is, they're not needless turns...they need to do them to slow down so they suddenly take the whole piste....and THAT is the reason why it's always on the person above to judge it's safe to pass them and only do so when it is. If you misjudge it, the space disappears and you crash then it's the uphill fault every single time. Of course it's helpful for people to be predictable but it's a dynamic environment where sometimes people aren't.....hence giving people plenty of room (and if it's not there then you're taking the risk by trying to get past).
You're quoting FIS rules.....of the thousands of people on any slope on any given weekend, how many of them have read any of that? It's not a driving test or a racetrack that needs rules....it just needs basic common decency that you don't bash past people without much room and if you take a risk, get it wrong then you hold your hands up and accept the blame rather than moaning about "the rules".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
@jedster,
Its as much a science as it is art. Frankly, I see competitive cat-track overtaking as an exhibition event at the next Olympics, style, speed, danger - a ratings winner without doubt. |
Brilliant. It needs a suitably convoluted scoring system, along the lines of ski jumping but way more complicated.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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9 pages, bloody hell people...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Brilliant, really!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| homers double wrote: |
| 9 pages, bloody hell people... |
It's very important that one doesn't give an inch and then defend one's position until death (if that is what it takes). 
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| homers double wrote: |
| 9 pages, bloody hell people... |
It's very important that one doesn't give an inch and then defend one's position until death (if that is what it takes). |
If Pyramus is skiing behind you, it may well come to that...
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| homers double wrote: |
| 9 pages, bloody hell people... |
It's very important that one doesn't give an inch and then defend one's position until death (if that is what it takes). |
Affirmative! Must... hold... line!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| wiigman wrote: |
Affirmative! Must... hold... line! |
....and then Click Poles to ensure line doesn't deviate! 
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| Snow Hound wrote: |
| Richard_Sideways wrote: |
@jedster,
Its as much a science as it is art. Frankly, I see competitive cat-track overtaking as an exhibition event at the next Olympics, style, speed, danger - a ratings winner without doubt. |
Brilliant. It needs a suitably convoluted scoring system, along the lines of ski jumping but way more complicated. |
Awesome idea. Proposed scoring calculation logic:
Total Score = ( 1/Width of cat track * number of learner skiers within 20m radius * 5(number of learner boarders) ) * (Number of FIS rules broken) + (Number of audible pole clicks) + (Total air time (in seconds)) * slope gradient
I think that kind of works. Bonus points for overtaking boarders. Ok this is version 1, some quant guys can try build a model for it.
Suggestions for other variables? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| homers double wrote: |
| 9 pages, bloody hell people... |
+ infinity
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| homers double wrote: |
| 9 pages, bloody hell people... |
best thread I've ever started (apart from the broken leg blog)
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| Pyramus wrote: |
I think that kind of works. Bonus points for overtaking boarders. Ok this is version 1, some quant guys can try build a model for it.
Suggestions for other variables? |
OK I have version 2, utilising an overtaking model used for autonomous vehicles. 
Sorry the graphical representation needs some work.
One possible way to calculate the total score is to use a weighted sum of the factors, where each factor is normalized by its maximum possible value. For example, the width of the piste could be normalized by the widest piste in the world, which is about 1.5 km¹. The number of FIS code of conduct rules broken could be normalized by the total number of rules, which is 10². The number of audible clicks of ski poles could be normalized by the maximum number of clicks that can be made in a second, which is about 10³. The total time spent in the air could be normalized by the longest recorded ski jump, which is 253.5 m⁴. The gradient of the ski slope could be normalized by the steepest slope in the world, which is about 78 degrees⁵.
The weights for each factor could be chosen based on how much they contribute to the difficulty and excitement of the overtaking manoeuvre. For example, one possible set of weights is:
- Width of the piste: 0.2
- Number of learner skiers and boarders within a 20 metre radius: 0.3
- Number of FIS code of conduct rules broken: 0.2
- Number of audible clicks of ski poles: 0.1
- Total time spent in the air: 0.1
- Gradient of the ski slope: 0.1
Then, the total score could be calculated as:
Total score=0.2×1.5 Width of the piste
+0.3×20 Number of learner skiers and boarders within a 20 metre radius
+0.2×10 Number of FIS code of conduct rules broken
+0.1×10 Number of audible clicks of ski poles
+0.1×253.5 Total time spent in the air
+0.1×78Gradient of the ski slope
The total score could range from 0 to 1, where 0 means the easiest and least exciting overtaking manoeuvre, and 1 means the hardest and most exciting overtaking manoeuvre.
(1) A novel approach of overtaking maneuvering using modified RG method .... https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0260455.
(2) A Linear Model Predictive Planning Approach for Overtaking Manoeuvres .... https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8500542/.
(3) Modelling vehicles acceleration during overtaking manoeuvres. https://ietresearch.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1049/iet-its.2015.0035.
(4) Code of Conduct | FIS. https://www.investor.fisglobal.com/code-of-business-conduct-and-ethics/.
(5) Code of Conduct - FIS. https://www.thefis.org/membership-hub/manageaccount/code-of-conduct/.
(6) Ethics - FIS-SKI.com. https://www.fis-ski.com/en/inside-fis/governance/ethics.
(7) The FIS Code of Conduct - FIS. https://www.thefis.org/about-us/the-fis-code-of-conduct/.
( 8 ) undefined. https://doi.org/10.1371/journal.pone.0260455.
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You know it makes sense.
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Some folk have too much time on their hands
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Look at that!
Not one of Pyramus's skiers on the image he's shared is looking up the slope so that they can properly avoid someone going faster/out of control/self-entitled.
That nearest one is definitely going to ski to the edge of the piste, which we all know is reserved for sociopaths.
Shocking!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@NickYoung, Oh man you got me there!! Version 3 will fix that.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Version 3 will fix that
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Please don't feel obliged....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Not one wearing a helmet...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Good one..another variable to add, increased danger factor if not wearing a helmet.
There is a weather and snow condition factor that needs including also.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| homphomp wrote: |
| Despite being an experienced skier I suffer from a random phobia that kicks in unexpectedly on narrow tracks. If it does you will find me snowploughing extremely slowly right down the middle getting in everyone's way. If you click your poles at me, no matter the intention, I will either do an emergency stop or probably fall over! It won't get you where you're going any quicker and will leave me crying and embarrassed. Please don't do it....you don't know what the person in front is feeling or how they will interpret your clicks! A polite "passing to you left/right" is much more helpful to the terminally terrified! |
exactly this - if I hear you coming I’ll panic - although if I hear you clicking chances are you aren’t speeding
what I don’t understand is why experienced skilled skiers choose the green run when they have the choice of blue/red and then seem to take great pleasure in passing me (obviously skiing cautiously) as close as possible at great speed even on a wide open piste?
also screeching past the netting with the Slow Down or Deburant Area signs
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Possibly because the green road is sometimes the only way. I've reluctantly had to ski said roads several times as there is no other option.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| homers double wrote: |
| Possibly because the green road is sometimes the only way. I've reluctantly had to ski said roads several times as there is no other option. |
+1
There are many many pistes that turn into motorways because they are the only option. Racing down to Stuben to catch the Flexen, all the pistes between the Massif and Flaine areas, etc.
The reverse happens as well, how many beginners do you find on Santons (a red) going into Val that are completely out of their depth?! Too many!
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Just for fun we decided to run a little survey. There are 5 of us skiing, and where possible and sensible decided to politely ask anyone who pole clicked from behind or have a verbal instruction/warning why they did it. Small sample of four so far, insights to date:
1. It did not happen at all on Friday or Saturday. Mostly Italians. Some very good skiers passed quite close but no real issues.
2. Two of those who clicked, when asked very politely about it, said they believed it was a consideration to those in front of them. And did now have any expectation on reply or action. When we explained we don’t agree with that, and why, both sort of agreed that it could be taken the wrong way. Nice chats and interesting sharing of views.
2. One pole clicker stated it was to make the person in front aware that they intended to pass, with the hope that they would hold their line. I challenged that a bit more, and the skier on reflection agreed this was not consistent with FIS rules and probably a bad idea. But had been doing it for ever with no problems. But was quick to point out they were always ready to change line/slow down/stop of the downhill skier did something unexpected, so I accepted the intent was to be helpful and they agreed it probably was misinterpreted. I didn’t ask if they would stop doing it or carry on.
3. One skier shouted “on your right” as he started to pass one of my kids. His skis were already overlapping the back of the (6 ft 15 year old) skis. Again I asked very politely why he did that. The response was because he was going faster and clearly more comfortable maintaining a higher speed than my kid. I maintained politeness but pointed out he had no right to expect the downhill skier to do anything. Response was that my kid was “closing the gap” at the edge of the path and he should not do that. He wasn’t, and neither was this skier more capable of higher speed. I challenged again, trying to maintain a polite approach while explaining the FIS rules, and the danger he had created. Also that a nervous or less capable skier may have been startled, to the extent of falling over behind him. Queried if he had even been challenged before to which he said a couple of times but there was no cause, as slower skiers should expect to be passed and should make allowance for that on paths. And should move out of the way of they hear a call. I have to admit my response to this was a little less polite and we did not part amicably.
4. All of the pole clickers/callers were of a certain type, regrettably from a certain nation (ours), and all were male.
We will continue the survey. Not least as we had a couple of nice and interesting chats with fellow skiers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@zikomo, I have a mental image of you all stopping in the middle of a narrow path to conduct these pleasant (mostly) exchanges. Please disabuse me!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| All of the pole clickers/callers were of a certain type, regrettably from a certain nation (ours), and all were male |
Cmon spill the beans . . .be more specific
10/10 for spending your holiday doing a vox pop!
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Number 3 sounds like a hole
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You know it makes sense.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @zikomo, I have a mental image of you all stopping in the middle of a narrow path to conduct these pleasant (mostly) exchanges. Please disabuse me! |
Well the fact that you think that says a lot more about you than it does about me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Belch, I am guessing you can tell the type. But it’s only a sample of 4 so I am trying to avoid too many inferences. I do think that all were from UK was interesting. I wonder if that would be different elsewhere (we are in Italy).
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Poster: A snowHead
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@zikomo, you really are a bit short on humour, aren't you? Ah well, happy skiing.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| zikomo wrote: |
Just for fun we decided to run a little survey. There are 5 of us skiing, and where possible and sensible decided to politely ask anyone who pole clicked from behind or have a verbal instruction/warning why they did it. Small sample of four so far, insights to date:
1. It did not happen at all on Friday or Saturday. Mostly Italians. Some very good skiers passed quite close but no real issues.
2. Two of those who clicked, when asked very politely about it, said they believed it was a consideration to those in front of them. And did now have any expectation on reply or action. When we explained we don’t agree with that, and why, both sort of agreed that it could be taken the wrong way. Nice chats and interesting sharing of views.
2. One pole clicker stated it was to make the person in front aware that they intended to pass, with the hope that they would hold their line. I challenged that a bit more, and the skier on reflection agreed this was not consistent with FIS rules and probably a bad idea. But had been doing it for ever with no problems. But was quick to point out they were always ready to change line/slow down/stop of the downhill skier did something unexpected, so I accepted the intent was to be helpful and they agreed it probably was misinterpreted. I didn’t ask if they would stop doing it or carry on.
3. One skier shouted “on your right” as he started to pass one of my kids. His skis were already overlapping the back of the (6 ft 15 year old) skis. Again I asked very politely why he did that. The response was because he was going faster and clearly more comfortable maintaining a higher speed than my kid. I maintained politeness but pointed out he had no right to expect the downhill skier to do anything. Response was that my kid was “closing the gap” at the edge of the path and he should not do that. He wasn’t, and neither was this skier more capable of higher speed. I challenged again, trying to maintain a polite approach while explaining the FIS rules, and the danger he had created. Also that a nervous or less capable skier may have been startled, to the extent of falling over behind him. Queried if he had even been challenged before to which he said a couple of times but there was no cause, as slower skiers should expect to be passed and should make allowance for that on paths. And should move out of the way of they hear a call. I have to admit my response to this was a little less polite and we did not part amicably.
4. All of the pole clickers/callers were of a certain type, regrettably from a certain nation (ours), and all were male.
We will continue the survey. Not least as we had a couple of nice and interesting chats with fellow skiers. |
For (3) I feel rather less polite . Entitled, bullying xxxx (because this is a family forum). I can only hope that he grows up soon, or comes a cropper. Interesting that he assumed the slower skiers were English speakers, at that’s in no way a certainty.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@zikomo, to make your survey balanced, would you kindly repeat it asking the people who overtook nd didn’t click their poles what their views were. Please also report back on their responses including an equally delivered chastisement for not doing so irrespective of their responses . All just to make the survey a statistically fair one 
Very interesting though
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| @zikomo, you really are a bit short on humour, aren't you? Ah well, happy skiing. |
I don’t view unpleasant insinuations as humour. But that’s just me I guess.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@sev112, I know you are joking. But if I get a chance on a gondola or chair I will ask more generally.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| @sev112, I know you are joking. But if I get a chance on a gondola or chair I will ask more generally. |
As you do that, you can also collect the response of people upon hearing pole clicks. Would they be startled? Do they hold their line? How many are wearing headphones (hence won’t hear the pole click anyway)?
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| zikomo wrote: |
| Hurtle wrote: |
| @zikomo, you really are a bit short on humour, aren't you? Ah well, happy skiing. |
I don’t view unpleasant insinuations as humour. But that’s just me I guess. |
Yes it is just you. Of course it wasn't an insinuation, it was a joke FFS. But if we are carrying on in this uber-literal mode, how did you actually engage these people in conversation? Presumably you skied after them and (having waited for them to stop?) drew up beside them? And then - apart, obviously, from the one who spoke English while passing you/your son - you engaged them initially in Italian? It will be interesting to learn the mechanics of this vox pop survey.
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@Hurtle, I don’t think I have to justify to you tbh
But I speak fluent Italian. And all I did was ski down and try to meet the person at the next lift. Which is why I said where sensible. You can tell a nationality at a glance normally (at least I can most of the time), so a simple “do you mind if I ask you a question”? I don’t really get why you would think that was hard.
And yes to suggest we would arrest the individual on a path, blocking it, whilst interrogating them, was unpleasant. And remains something that says a lot about you.
Do you need any more information?
It’s just a bit of fun which you seem to be missing….
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@abc, there is a limit where a polite question and chat becomes an interrogation. I tried to keep it light hearted and a couple of times people found it a bit strange and did not want to engage. I simply apologised for disturbing them and wished them a great day.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| It’s just a bit of fun which you seem to be missing…. |
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FAQ
