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Europe's ski resorts to remain closed until mid January?

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
admin wrote:
...and breathe!

Wink


I think the PHP removed my </rant> tag.

Smile
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
r11s wrote:
The restrictions are in place until at least 10 Jan. it’s wait and see at the moment unfortunately


That's what I've discovered already but I can't tell if it's restrictions in place and they finish at 00:00 on 10th, or if they finish at 23:59 on 10th January
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
[quote="under a new name"]
davidof wrote:
Was in a big local ski shop this pm. A lot of people buy skimo gear.

I hear that shops here who sell rando kit are selling a lot of rando kit. Quite a bit of muttering about avvy knowledge, experience, risks, etc.


Picked up my skis from the local randonée specialist shop today, lots of people in there on a wednesday evening........
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@WindOfChange, apparently, average 20% of visitors toFrench ski resorts don’t ski.

And Chamonix something like 30% booked with people who just want a “winter wonderland”.

My s-i-l’s apartments are full, and she’s getting early january bookings (albeit all at summer rates).

a chacun son gout ...
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Claude B wrote:
@WindOfChange, tbf they are only echoing Castex the French PM.


@Claude B, Is that Caste[ri]x the Gaul ? Good knockabout cartoon that was.
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If the story in the FT is right it probably doesn’t matter what they do with lifts - after 1 Jan UK travellers won’t be allowed into Europe until we meet the Covid levels to be “green” on the EU list. Which I think is a 14 day rate per 100k of under 25 and a positivity rate of tests under 4%.
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
https://www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk/financial-times-front-page-2020-12-10/
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/09/uk-holidaymakers-could-be-barred-from-visiting-eu-under-covid-safety-rules
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Individual states can choose to allow uk visitors. Maybe some of these prefer $$ to anti brexit point scoring ?
We’ll know the facts before everything opens in Jan
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Yes each country can decide for themselves
If you have a business turning over €1 million and 20-30% of that, say comes from British ski tourism then why would you want to lose €200-300K of it?
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@VolklAttivaS5, It is more relevant how much of a countries economy comes from British ski tourism. Probably quite small.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
France have not chosen to make any exemptions as far as I know. I can't find any. I think Austria may have done.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
We shall see in due course wether or not European Ski resorts choose to ban British tourists. I’m inclined to call BS.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
There are plenty of unknowns at the moment for this winter
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
under a new name wrote:
@WindOfChange, apparently, average 20% of visitors toFrench ski resorts don’t ski.

And Chamonix something like 30% booked with people who just want a “winter wonderland”.

My s-i-l’s apartments are full, and she’s getting early january bookings (albeit all at summer rates).

a chacun son gout ...

Very True wrt non-skiers.

I see there are a few non skiers here, but there's 2 caveats to that:
Often is 1 person in a group of 5 skiers. In this instance, the other 4 aren't going to go, with nothing do to.
Where it's a group of all non skiers, they would normally frequent the bars and restaurants - remember these are closed, so altogether less appealing.

Most Business that run at 20% of capacity at peak times go bust, as they have normally have a large fixed cost base vs the variable cost.
The rent for my resto in Avoriaz was the same if I was full or empty. We needed to run at about 65% capacity to break even.
So in low season it was better to close so there was only rent to pay rather than losing money whilst operating as well.
The key is staff costs in France, its so expensive, that they have to be productive.
Where you have staff-free business ( accommodation) then there is no down side for them - BUT here's the big kick in the balls for the other businesses.
If for example someone were to go to a resort for 2 weeks per year.
If they take those 2 weeks in December or early Jan then thats a disaster for the ski shops, bars, restos, ski schools etc..
If they take 1 week now and 1 in Feb, then its only half as bad.
If they take both weeks when stuff is open everybody gains.
The accommodation provider still gets the 2 weeks rentals ( and can charge full price)

Like you say to each ones own, but the vast majority of people would prefer stuff to be open during their Winter holidays, so why not just hold off until it is "safer" - what ever that might be ?
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
r11s wrote:
We shall see in due course wether or not European Ski resorts choose to ban British tourists. I’m inclined to call BS.


+1
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The Lake Tahoe in the US is now restricted to locals only - no visitors allowed. Seems similar to the Italian restrictions
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/dec/09/california-lake-tahoe-tourists-closed-covid-deaths
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@WindOfChange, When we were transfer driving in Chamonix last winter over Christmas and New Year we transported lots of non-skier groups. However they were mainly long haul visitors, for example an extended family flying from Malaysia to show the grandchildren snow for the first time, Australians on European tours etc. None of these will be there this season - they wouldn't come without restaurants/bars, they wouldn't come without the Midi lift and the Montenvers open, and they can't come anyway because they aren't allowed to travel. A lot of these are also the "high value" visitors, staying in expensive hotels and spending lots of money who will be missing.
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@r11s,
Quote:

We shall see in due course wether or not European Ski resorts choose to ban British tourists. I’m inclined to call BS.


From the 1st Jan it is not a matter of ski resorts deciding anything. Either the EU Council, or individual National Governments must make a positive decision to allow UK non-essential travelers. The default position is that we are not allowed to enter the EU after 1st Jan except for a limited range of essential reasons. (And we have known this to be the case for a month or two now).
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
But isn't this already the case? On two counts. Firstly, the UK is prohibiting 'unnecessary' foreign travel. Second, France is prohibiting all internal unnecessary travel. So we can't currently enter France anyway (without exceptional reasons).

Or are you saying that while currently, UK non-entry to France is on the basis of Covid restrictions, but even once these no longer apply, we'll still be unable to enter France because of our non-EU status?

I just think that people seem to be confusing the post-Brexit issues with the Covid issues. If you take away the Covid restrictions, then why would any EU country be denying us entry? Yes, they may apply the same requirements as, say for an American or a Japanese etc. And we may need more documentation, like a visa, and we may have a maximum length of stay, but we'll still be able to travel there.
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RobinS wrote:
@r11s,
Quote:

We shall see in due course wether or not European Ski resorts choose to ban British tourists. I’m inclined to call BS.


From the 1st Jan it is not a matter of ski resorts deciding anything. Either the EU Council, or individual National Governments must make a positive decision to allow UK non-essential travelers. The default position is that we are not allowed to enter the EU after 1st Jan except for a limited range of essential reasons. (And we have known this to be the case for a month or two now).


Semantics . The scaremongering chooses to ignore the fact that each country can choose its own rules. No duff that the resorts don’t make the rules but the folk that do will have regard to tourism as one of the considerations when making their decisions, so yeah, the tourism industry probably won’t choose to ban uk visitors and will likely lobby for this.
Knickers are getting in a twist for no reasonable reason.
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 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
LaForet wrote:
But isn't this already the case? On two counts. Firstly, the UK is prohibiting 'unnecessary' foreign travel. Second, France is prohibiting all internal unnecessary travel. So we can't currently enter France anyway (without exceptional reasons).

Or are you saying that while currently, UK non-entry to France is on the basis of Covid restrictions, but even once these no longer apply, we'll still be unable to enter France because of our non-EU status?

I just think that people seem to be confusing the post-Brexit issues with the Covid issues. If you take away the Covid restrictions, then why would any EU country be denying us entry? Yes, they may apply the same requirements as, say for an American or a Japanese etc. And we may need more documentation, like a visa, and we may have a maximum length of stay, but we'll still be able to travel there.


Exactly
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Regarding travel to Europe, we have seen the "travel Corridors" between various EU Countries (+UK) open and close numerous times this year as cases have risen and fallen in various areas. That would be likely to continue into the next year anyway.

The only difference after January is that it would be on an EU wide status. However, under EU rules, all member states would have to agree to it. It would only take one Country to veto because they decide they need the income from the visitors and consider the risk acceptable. (eg. the UK level could be above the preferred limit, but still be considerably lower than many other Countries in the Bloc)

Would Italy or Austria agree to block the UK if our infection rate was lower than theirs, and the rate in France was double ours? Or would they block the French?

The problem then could arise, that having restricted our access, it would need all the members to agree to let us return.......
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LaForet wrote:
But isn't this already the case? On two counts. Firstly, the UK is prohibiting 'unnecessary' foreign travel. Second, France is prohibiting all internal unnecessary travel. So we can't currently enter France anyway (without exceptional reasons).

......

I just think that people seem to be confusing the post-Brexit issues with the Covid issues.


There is definitely a post-brexit issue here to do with covid but I don’t think the above posts have confused the two at all. As it stands at the moment, from my understanding , we are not prohibited from foreign travel, just advised not to. Similarly, France are not prohibiting us entry either. So, if I could get a flight tomorrow, I could legitimately travel to France for non-essential reasons, e.g. a Holiday. However, with that said I think the logistics of then travelling inside France are complex due to their internal Covid restrictions but that’s not the point here.
These are the countries that can currently enter France WITHOUT ANY Covid-19 restrictions…

Member States of the European Union, Andorra, Australia, the Holy See, Iceland, Japan, Liechtenstein, Monaco, New Zealand, Norway, Rwanda, San Marino, South Korea, Singapore, Switzerland, Thailand and the United Kingdom.

The problem is that after Jan 1st, we will no longer be on that list, so if the Covid restrictions of travel etc within France are relaxed and Ski resorts are allowed to open, we may not be able to pass the first criteria of entering France.
So, basically, the UK will need to get its Covid-19 infection rate down below the threshold to allow us to get back on the above list OR BoJo needs to do some more negotiating for which I am sure that’s going to happen wink
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SnowB1KinOldy wrote:
So, basically, the UK will need to get its Covid-19 infection rate down below the threshold to allow us to get back on the above list OR BoJo needs to do some more negotiating for which I am sure that’s going to happen wink


I'm sure he'd gladly do another Grilled Turbot dinner date in Brussels with Uschi, trouble is Princess Nut-Nut might not be happy about it!! Laughing
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A@luigi, what actually happened on the dinner date:
https://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/fancy-going-on-to-a-club-how-boris-johnsons-brexit-meal-went-wrong-20201210203363?fbclid=IwAR1V-Qk9bWpGRXE1N8zDGZ3FFLBt2KKiN8zqhQNpJj8aqrjRWiocVDdI5Rs
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
A friend in the Südtirol has told me that at least some resorts in the Dolomites are to open the pistes for skiing on 18th January.
I don’t have any verification for this.
And just because something is possible doesn’t mean it should be done.
But is it possible?
I have been trying to see if it is possible from the UK end to actually fly out. Or drive out. Does anyone have an easy simple answer?
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
JohnHSmith wrote:

I have been trying to see if it is possible from the UK end to actually fly out. Or drive out. Does anyone have an easy simple answer?


No flights. You might be able to pick your way around Europe by car or train (good luck with that) but basically Europe is closed to the U.K.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I’m in Cumbria which has just moved from Tier 2 into Tier 4.
From the Government website :
International travel to or from a Tier 4 area
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you can only travel internationally – or within the UK – where you first have a legally permitted reason to leave home. In addition, you should consider the public health advice in the country you are visiting.

So it is permissible to travel abroad if you have a legally permitted reason to leave home.
What is a legally permitted reason?
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall. The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:
...............outdoor recreation or exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your Tier 4 area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)


There are differences between what you are permitted to do and what you are advised to do.
So, I think I am permitted to leave home for exercise. I am advised to stay local.
On my reading of this, I am permitted to leave home for skiing and having left home I am permitted to travel internationally. I am advised not to do this though.
I stress again that just because you can do something it doesn’t mean you should do it.
But am I right?
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
telford_mike wrote:
JohnHSmith wrote:

I have been trying to see if it is possible from the UK end to actually fly out. Or drive out. Does anyone have an easy simple answer?


No flights. You might be able to pick your way around Europe by car or train (good luck with that) but basically Europe is closed to the U.K.

Lufthansa flights to München for about £40 including luggage
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 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
JohnHSmith wrote:
telford_mike wrote:
JohnHSmith wrote:

I have been trying to see if it is possible from the UK end to actually fly out. Or drive out. Does anyone have an easy simple answer?


No flights. You might be able to pick your way around Europe by car or train (good luck with that) but basically Europe is closed to the U.K.

Lufthansa flights to München for about £40 including luggage


Yup, doesn’t mean they’ll let you on the plane without an 'essential' justification though. The reason they are £40 is that hardly anyone can possibly use them.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
FCDO advice fo Germany wrote:
...Travellers arriving in Germany who have been in the UK in the preceding 10 days will be required to provide their local public health authority with a negative coronavirus test result and to be able to show it at the border. The test can no longer be taken upon or immediately after entry to Germany. ... The test must have been taken less than 48 hours before you enter Germany. Even with a negative test, you will still then be required to self-isolate for 10 days following your arrival in Germany, with the possibility for test and release after 5 days....
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@JohnHSmith,
Quote:

On my reading of this, I am permitted to leave home for skiing and having left home I am permitted to travel internationally. I am advised not to do this though.
I stress again that just because you can do something it doesn’t mean you should do it.
But am I right?


This might be one for travel correspondent Simon Calder on the one hand and Radio 4’s Moral Maze on the other.

Personally I’d be enjoying a bit of outdoor exercise in Cumbria the next couple of weeks, maybe including skiing.
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@JohnHSmith, the UK is a third country and currently not on the EU list as a "safe country". You will not be permitted entry unless you have a good reason (i.e. something essential, not tourism), and you will be required to quarantine for 10 days if you do so.
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 Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@JohnHSmith, two people I know of have not been allowed into France (refused entry at Grenoble airport) as they did not have the right documentation to travel to France, apart from a PCR Covid test taken no more than 72hrs before.

The form is here
https://www.interieur.gouv.fr/content/download/125623/1005091/file/24-12-2020-attestation-deplacement-du-royaume-uni-vers-la-france-anglais.docx#

This travel certificate is to be presented to the transport company before use of the travel ticket by travellers intending to travel to France, as well as to border control authorities. In the absence of this certificate, boarding will be denied or entry to the country will be refused. Travellers must also present a sworn statement that they do not show any COVID-19 symptoms.

And to back that up you do need relevant documentation re being a property owner / resident.

That said people I know that have driven out have not been asked for the permit to travel only the Covid Certification
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JohnHSmith wrote:
I’m in Cumbria which has just moved from Tier 2 into Tier 4.
From the Government website :
International travel to or from a Tier 4 area
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you can only travel internationally – or within the UK – where you first have a legally permitted reason to leave home. In addition, you should consider the public health advice in the country you are visiting.

So it is permissible to travel abroad if you have a legally permitted reason to leave home.
What is a legally permitted reason?
If you live in a Tier 4 area, you must not leave your home unless you have a reasonable excuse (for example, for work or education purposes). If you need to travel you should stay local – meaning avoiding travelling outside of your village, town or the part of a city where you live – and look to reduce the number of journeys you make overall. The list of reasons you can leave your home and area include, but are not limited to:
...............outdoor recreation or exercise. This should be done locally wherever possible, but you can travel a short distance within your Tier 4 area to do so if necessary (for example, to access an open space)


There are differences between what you are permitted to do and what you are advised to do.
So, I think I am permitted to leave home for exercise. I am advised to stay local.
On my reading of this, I am permitted to leave home for skiing and having left home I am permitted to travel internationally. I am advised not to do this though.
I stress again that just because you can do something it doesn’t mean you should do it.
But am I right?

If you want to know what is legal, I'd suggest looking at the legislation. Here's the legislation on the Tiers: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/1374#commentary-c24351441
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Italy to remain closed until at least Jan 18, apparently ...

France update this week.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Thanks for the replies.
As far as I can see, based on the Regulations from early December (many thanks @sugarmoma666) then from the UK perspective it should be permissible to travel.
As @queenie pretty please points out, the destination country will have rules as to who may enter and on what terms, and as @Weathercam says, current rules in France would seem to prevent travel there.
It might seem odd but in many ways it would be easier for me psychologically if I were unable to go. That would take the decision out of my hands. It feels harder to be able to go legally (assuming that Italy allows visitors from the date the slopes open) but to not go because it is the right moral decision
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@JohnHSmith, Why are you trying to twist this to justify a ski holiday? It is not essential, it does not constitute exercise within the meaning
of the Tier 4 restrictions and as you are in a Tier 4 area you are not allowed to travel abroad unless you have a damn good reason (like work). Going skiing is not a good enough reason. It is really not difficult.
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@JohnHSmith, current list of EU safe countries:

Information for travellers from third countries to the EU
The Council updated the list of countries for which travel restrictions should be lifted. This list will continue to be reviewed and, as the case may be, updated every two weeks.

Based on the criteria and conditions set out in the recommendation, member states should gradually lift the travel restrictions at the external borders for residents of the following third countries:

Australia
Japan
New Zealand
Rwanda
Singapore
South Korea
Thailand
China, subject to confirmation of reciprocity
Travel restrictions should also be gradually lifted for the special administrative regions of China Hong Kong and Macao, subject to confirmation of reciprocity.

Residents of Andorra, Monaco, San Marino and the Vatican should be considered as EU residents for the purpose of this recommendation.


With current rates the UK seems unlikely to enter this list for several weeks/months. That sound be all the proof you need that you cannot go.
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