Too steep to groom?

A snowHead

Jonny Jones, I really object - I was trying to explain to a clearly much less experienced skier that the colour of a run does not guarantee anything. OTOH if any run is marked black I would personally assume that the potential for injury is there. There are some blacks that are easy (Jockeys at Courcheval springs to mind), but I was saying that the question "where's the easy black?" assumes that not all blacks are black, which is silly.

You clearly think that because it was only a single diamond the resort is should post warnings everywhere - no - the colour should be enough. As little tiger, says - ask he locals - I would not recommend asking the reps 'cos I don't think they ever know much. Why not ask? You need to learn about snow conditions. You say 1% risk is too much - then skiing's not for you - sorry. I don't know the risk of crossing the road, but much higher than 1% I should think.

Winterhighland, and Kramer, are right.

Oh and BTW no-one who can actually ski well thinks they're perfect, but we became experienced by lots of lessons and lots of practise and taking the odd risk.

I actually had lessons all day every skiing day from age 5 until age 16 (end of racing as a junior, approx 3 weeks per year). I then had lessons every time I skied until 20 when I did BASI 3 training, then had lessons until BASI 2 training - get the idea?

A snowHead

This is an interesting thread and I suppose one of the international problems is that there is no fixed way of grading. As Helen so rightly pointed out many resorts seem to grade their pistes according to "what's the most difficult from this point" - Lake Louise being a great example. The number of times I've encountered a sobbing Brit on Upper Meadowlark exclaiming "this isn't like a blue run in europe" Sad

. C'est la vie I suppose.

I do also agree that many people don't take enough lessons, I always take lessons because imo there's always more to learn and more than that, each season I can use a refresher course. There are of course ALWAYS an element of the group sulking because they want to ski black runs and most of the teaching is done on blues and greens... but that of course is where you learn the technical elements before being let loose on the rest of the mountain.

We had a thread not so long ago on these boards asking why the summit platter (poma) lift at Lake Louise could not be made into a chair - but I think LL has got it right there - if you can't manage the platter lift then you may well have difficulty getting down from the top.

I also think that many people over-estimate their ability, I went with a friend to LL one winter who "claimed" to have skiied black runs all over france and yet I had to get mountain rescue to collect her from Wiwaxy...

I'm going to upset the apple cart a bit though with the feeling of "I've done a black run woohooo" - I was soooo excited when I did my first black run and getting the first one done of the season is always exciting! Smile

It just makes me feel great and that I've accomplished something.

When I take a black run I always accept that I may have to get myself out of a bit of trouble if the worst occurs - and yes, I've gone face down (Rodney's Ridge at LL) and painfully OVER my ski which I'd seen shoot off 20 yards ahead of me. But surely this is the name of the game - if we wanted safe then we'd go fishing! Laughing

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I completely agree with the personal responsibility angle, but the inherent assumption here - that the less able skiers are able to judge for themselves which runs they are up to tackling and under which conditions - is perhaps not completely fair either?

That said I don't think the resorts can do much more in terms of grading runs - black is black, the potential for serious difficulty is there. But I do think they and the T.O.'s etc can and should do more in terms of education. There should be a real effort to explain the hazards of the mountain environment and other aspects of skiing as a sport to the casual punter. That includes fitness, off piste, control of speed, and clear explanations of how a run can be transformed from one day to the next in terms of conditions.

In Les Arcs yesterday you could tackle any black, irrespective of gradient, with very little danger. Following overnight, soft snow, you couldn't slide more than a few metres even if you flung yourself down the runs head first. Hardly anyone skied them all day, and conditions changed little. That said very close to Arc 1800 coming from Arc 1600 there's a small section of innocent-looking red that is frequently marked up with a sign stating clearly "Danger - ice!". So many people scrape down it that it is usually in that state, other than first thing in the morning. It's pretty common practice in French resorts these days to mark up icy runs in this manner. That alone should be enough to persuade less competent skiers to use an alternative route down.

When conditions are very icy there's little pleasure in tackling steep slopes anyway. Unless you really do have impeccable technique and can get the edge angle needed, with your centre of balance in just the right place over your perfectly prepared skis... and from what I've seen, that rules out most casual skiers on the slopes!

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I would have thought it possible for resorts to actually describe or annotate their runs either on the piste map or in a separate sheet. Golf courses do it for their holes. It would be fairly straightforward for resorts to describe the potential hazards between various numbered piste markers, highlighting particular areas of steepness, flat (for the boarders), narrow sections, tendency to get iced up, tendency to get mogully, where the bumps are for the kids etc etc. Just giving the colour of a run is a fairly arbitrary and meaningless piece of information.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

I have seen a piste map where runs are listed with average and maximum gradients, as well as other details such as length and vertical drop. But can I currently remember where????

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I don't think that there's anything unreasonable or illogical about the question 'Is that black an easy or difficult black?' (which is not the same as 'Where's the easy black?', which presupposes that there is a black which isn't a black). With a necessarily crude grading system, 3 or 4 grades to cover every pisted run (OK, 5 in Breckenridge), and an arbitrary approach to grading (for PR reasons and just because resorts are different), there are obviously some runs of each colour which are easier than others of the same colour. This will be all the more so with blacks, which start where reds finish and go on until all the runs are graded.

Obviously, it's everyone's responsibility to satisfy themselves as far as they can that they want to be on the run they're about to ski (although getting it wrong, but not too wrong, is all part of learning), but asking questions is all part of that process. It seems to me that if someone asks you a question about a run and you know the answer you should give it without making judgements on the level of sophistication or willy size of the questioner; if people want to rack up blacks, easy or difficult, because they are a bit nerdy and have tiny equipment, that's their privilege.

Okanagan, length and drop (and therefore average gradient) and even maximum gradient don't tell you much about a run; there may be all sorts of horrors between the top and bottom of a run of modest gradient (as beginners skiing in Val d'Isere will testify, I imagine), and a steep run can be easy peasy if it's wide and not too icy. Width always seems to me to be an important factor; beng forced into a turn because you're running out of piste can be unnerving especially on an icy slope for other than experienced skiers.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

It seems to me that we all complain about 'big brother' and the nanny state, and yet here we are wanting to be told where it's ok to ski on the mountains. Surely we ski because of the freedom and the beauty of it, and the fact that there is some danger, isn't that what makes it so exciting?

If most people don't bother to read the rules of skiing printed on piste maps and signs, or notice or even understand what the avalanche warnings show, are they really going to bother to read an account of the skiability of the pistes?

After all it is free

Again, thinking of golf and the SI system for indicating likelihood of getting par for that hole, it shouldn't be beyond the wit of a resort to give some grading system to the runs so that anyone that has not been to that resort before can determine the relative difficulty of each blue/red black etc.

Asking a local is easy if you know who the locals are (and can speak their language), but if you don't, there should be alternate means of getting this information.

It does seem to me that resorts are more interested in attracting visitors to their resorts than supply them with useful information Confused

.

RachelQ, I hear what you say, but trying to coax a terrified novice down an unexpected steep/narrow/icy section isn't exciting.

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richmond - ROCKS do it for me....

I see rocks and I start to get fretty....( I see bumps in snow and I think ROCKS too... because many of our bumps are rocks) green ice a few rocks and I'm shaking and almost in tears...

I have seen my instructor taken out by a rock that was hiding just under the snow.... he managed to stay in control - I do not think I would have.... my ability to switch weight and ski out on one ski is not there.... Granite is unforgiving as a skiing medium!

I have also seen too many people who had head into granite in falls... Sad

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IMO many piste mapped are so cramped that to try and fit extra information on them wouldn't be practical. Also pistes very much vary according to conditions, which direction they face in, time of day, what the light quality is, so unless they were updating the boards all the time then the information could very well be out of date.

snow reports

For me rocks are the major factor as well because the knowledge that they are barely covered affects my natural skiing as I'm preoccupied looking for them. Bit ironic given that I did a fair bit of formative skiing in Scoitland where picking out the patches of snow between rocks & heather was pretty much an essential skill.

I'm in the personal responsibility camp because I don't want nannying on the slopes. There's obviously a bit of hypocrisy in this as I'm more than happy to have avalanche control work done as it removes one factor for me to think too hard about. I can symphathise with novice skiers who face the unknown on every new lift but is part of the problem mixed ability groups who through an entirely reasonable desire to ski together encourage novices off the bunny slopes before they have some bombproof and confidence building basics mastered? I know from experience that coaxing someone who has lost their bottle down a slope is unpleasant for all parties.

Jonny Jones,
I hope this does not sound patronising as it is not intended to. I have skied 20+ years and still struggle on icy runs and tricky snow with a less than good technique so I have little to be patronising about. Embarassed

But I think you have to look at some of the more experienced skiers and see what they are getting at. Nothing can be 100% safe you can slip and fall on an icy path to the chalet crack your head and kill yourself but notwithstanding the experiences of little tiger, skiing does not seem to be much more dangerous than other sports and in my experience resorts do try to label real dangers. If you try and identify every patch of ice as being for experts you will find the danger of crying wolf and people will ignore the signs.

In your case you consider the risk of your falling to be about 1 in a hundred, if following that fall your likelyhood of sliding badly is about 1 in 10 which I from my experience of falling on icy black runs is likely to be a high estimate and following the fall the likelyhood of injury to be about 1 in 10 again possibly a high estimate, most people seem to get up after long falls then your actual chance of injury is about 1:10000 or 0.01%.

I do not mean to trivialise injury or say there is no danger but realistically the dangers are low but you should still be alert to them personally I try to avoid icy black runs and find good snow where my technique is not shown up to much snowHead

You know it makes sense.

Ray Zorro, Of course I can't speak for the Savoie & Tarantaise (no doubt others will), but there's a secours des pistes office in the main lift pass office, where you could go and find a pisteur to ask about certain runs. They will certainly try to help you, ditto the staff for the lift company. We actually have people on "acceuil" who speak several languages around at the bottom first thing in the morning and then skiing around during the day to help people. All of the peeps are in uniform. Unfotunately, although i've seen a number of French and Dutch etc asking for advice, I've yet to see a Brit.

In addition, whenever I've stopped to help obviously lost or undecided peeps on the slope (looking at the map etc), the Brits have responded (almost all), to my polite "can I help you?" with rude words and a brusque manner, whereas other nationalities are keen to take advantage. Now, I don't have to stop, and inconvenience my class to help these peeps, but I have now stopped offering if they're clearly British - not worth the aggro. Shock

So this all begs the question: why are the British so reluctant to ask for help or advice?

little tiger, Don't go to Scotland or La Grave then!! Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

easiski

IIRC I skied this a week after this pic.... and THAT slope is one that they ran a bulldozer up when they built it - NO rocks... they even planted snowgrass that would lay flat and hold the snow better .. (greenies desist they would NOT be allowed to do this now)

can't find pics of my reg training run - which carries rocks all season ....but this is an area one instructor likes to ski a bit

I just worry when i see lots of rocks below me.... add the ice and i start to fret... (yes it gets green regularly and the wind scours the snow off the top... usually into face)

A snowHead

I'm probably the least experienced skier taking part in this thread right now, and that's probably why my views differ so sharply from everyone else's.

How can an intermediate skier know when a run is dangerous when their intermediate status means they don't yet have enough experience to be to determine the dangers accurately? Of course I made mistakes (I acknowledged them at the start of the thread), but the problem with the run that I fell on was that it presented dangers of a different order of magnitude from other similarly marked runs.

No-one has asked for a nanny state. Of course dangerous runs should be available to those who want to take risks. But cautious skiers should have access to information to help them to ski safely. I'm astonished that anyone should think that such a request is unreasonable.

A snowHead

Johnny jones - that first run I posted is a BLUE.... (parts are green)

now when it is covered in snow it is very green/blue.... but a week after that photo was taken it was certainly not anything like what a newer skier wants to ski.... you actually needed to be able to ski the grass patches to connect the snow bits on my last run... (in fact to get a good run we skied over a heap of bushes about knee-midthigh high on me (i'm short) ... rather than take more snow but less speed(very sticky snow) and so have harder work....

Cautious = don't ski he blacks unless you are VERY sure you have the skills and/or the conditions are VERY good....
I'm probably the worlds most cautious skier... the instructors have taken to not taking me into runs via areas where I can see the signs.... they make me cut across so I have no idea where I am.... if I don't know I ski black runs quite relaxed... but tell me it is black and I start trying to "be careful" .... at my home resort I knew the black runs by name and area before I ever skied them.... my instructors actually had to take very weird entries so i would not know where I was skiing until we had finished.... or worse still we skied the blacks on white out days so i would get confused!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

If you were talking about a blue (intermediate) run I don't think anyone would. Black runs are for experts, other levels of skiers shouldn't be on them without the advice of an expert...that's why I don't ski them!

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

What is an expert skier?

(lights fuse and runs...)

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little tiger, do I know you from elsewhere?

Just to clarify - I wasn't after the pistes being standardised, just the markings/identifications. I think the current systems could be improved dramatically, by whatever means - more colours, 1 to 10 difficulty grading, hell call them apples, bananas, oranges and strawberries if you want Wink

My whole argument is that a standardised system with more information would increase skiers' ability to take responsibility for their own decisions whether or not to tackle any given piste. And increasing the number of run gradings would probably be a good start (green-blue, blue-red, red-black ?) and not too difficult to implement since most resorts do some regrading and reprint their piste maps every year anyway.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

Jonny Jones - you are obviously a brave man to admit your mistakes and I hope you don't feel marginalised by other people offering their opinions. On balance I think the resort, given usual litigation consciousness may have had an oversight in not putting up a "long slides possible" notice, but you may also have been a victim of the euphemism "hard packed". Given a mountain host had previously advised you he thought it was dangerous I don't think you can complain too strongly about lack of information though.

I think all ski runs no matter what grade have the potential for serious injury (trees & rocks off the side, pylons on the piste, other skiers with sharp metal objects on their feet etc) so I don't think there was any negligence involved on the resorts part. I expect you'll end up putting it down as a lesson learned & so become a better skier

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In North America, black runs are not for experts - double blacks are. Single blacks are usually labelled Advanced. Double blacks come complete with warnings about impending death and I didn't ski any that I couldn't first inspect from top to bottom (although my son, who skis at a similar level to me, was taken on several by his instructor and came back with tales of cliffs, etc).

I suspect that resorts are under huge commercial pressure to provide a balanced range of runs even if the terrain doesn't support it. Panorama is often labelled as unsuitable for cautious intermediates as it has relatively few blue runs, and many of those few blues actually have short black sections that can only be avoided by using catwalks. I believe that's why the resort grooms so many of its blacks - if they were left as bump runs, intermediate skiers might stay away. Unfortunately, grooming a run doesn't make it easier if conditions are icy. It just makes it more dangerous.

I'm not alone in this cynical view. It seems to be shared quite strongly by the authors of Where to Ski and Snowboard, and that book highlights a number of resorts that the authors believe to have made dangerous pisting and grading decisions.

snow reports

Jonny Jones, As I gather, this was a big long straight black run. It was icy.

It should be pretty easy to figure out that if you fall you will continue to slide unless you know some trick to self-arrest. You fell in a no fall zone - an advanced skier should be able to figure out where you can go for it and the result of falling won't be a 500 metre slide or a drop over a cliff. It wasn't a "no fall zone" the day before when the snow conditions were better.

Were you trying to turn on the ice or trying to straight line it ? An advanced skier will also know (hopefully) when they have reached their limit and it's time to just get to the bottom by slide slipping. Jebus, I even know when to do that and I don't count myself as an advanced skier.

You know it makes sense.

what really makes me laugh is that witin the last (2) years in Val D'Isere Piste A has been made easier (the dog leg has been widened) but up graded from red to black.

In Argentiere the top bit of Varient Hotel is now black- but the bottom- which I ave only skiied with lots of rocks and trees remains red?

Piste grading is odd- I'm sure one of the Blue runs between Gratalou and Grand Huit at Tignes has moguls...

It's just not fair Confused

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

From experience not all black slopes are difficult as hell. Many are safer to ski on than the neighbouring red slopes that have been scraped so much to become icy. A black slope on the other hand have less traffic and the piste condition is usally more favourable, at least with more snow for turning and stopping.

Ungroomed black slopes are a different ball game that requires additional skill as well as suitable skis. Double diamond blacks in the North America can be dangerous as the route may necessitate jumping over a certain height, a practice I haven't seen in Europe.

A snowHead

edsilva, No it isn't - and it's a pain, for us as well. We have black runs that used to be red, blue runs that used to be red, red runs that used to be blue, and runs that change every couple of years between red and blue. It's a nuicence because we know that people will get stuck and hate the place etc. etc. However market forces do, in fact (until there's a convergence of colours) more or less force the resort to try to offer a percentage of each colour to attract the requisite number of visitors. I'm not saying this is ideal - far from it, but it's a fact of life.

Having said that, and I'm sorry Jonny Jones, feels he's being hard done by here, if a run is for advanced skiers and you're an intermediate skier you should ask before you go if it's safe for YOU. It also doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that melt (hot or warm weather) + freeze (cold nights) = ice. These are the conditions that produce ice.. Shocked

ajhainey, In spite of your protests that you're not an expert skier - you had absolutely no problems getting safely down the Grande Pente earlier this year, which is extremely steep around the tree part of it. Very Happy

A snowHead

I _knew_ I should never have let you see me ski! But it proves my point - that run isn't outside my capabilities, on that day; some other days, some other LDA black runs might well be. So before going down them I ask an expert (that would be you Very Happy

).

I've been reading back over the thread and I think some of it might just be that many of us object to the idea of the resort being liable/having to do something...if jonny had said 'wouldn't it be nice if they had put an ice warning at the top' the response might well be different...I'm definately a fan of encouraging better piste marking (although more at the blue/green/low red end) just not the idea that doing so or failing to do so makes the resort liable for anything that then happens, down that road lies closing off the mountains and having only the snowdomes and dry slopes!

aj xx

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Part of the joy of skiing for me is the feeling of taking calculated risks in a potentially dangerous environment. If it was safe then I wouldn't enjoy it as much, and I would hate to see it sanitised any more than it is at the moment.

The skier has to assume responsibility for their actions, because otherwise, if responsibility, and thus liability lies with the resorts, then we'll end up with limitations being imposed on us by the resorts.

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A Canadian perspective.

I have skied at a little western hll called Mt. Washington on Vancouver Island, and at an Eastern hills called Mt. Tremblant, and Jay Peak. After comming back East from the western hill, I really noticed that there was a big difference in how hills are graded. It seems that what was a black or double black in the east would be labled a blue out west. I could not see any reason for it Puzzled

. Then it hit me as I saw a westerner struggling down one the the eastern hills. The eastern hill had ice on it. Having grown up and learned how to ski on a sloped skating rink with rocks that they called a "ski hill" I had no trouble skating down the ice on my sharp edges, but people not used to ice found it very difficult.

They don't get a lot of ice in the West. The hills are graded as though they don't have ice on them, because they usually don't. You probably encounterd an unusual condition, and it's sad you were not warned.

Learning self-arrest with single pole stab might be a good idea.

Be that as it may, all you need are sharp edges, and a little ice time.

BTW. I think if I were faced with a fall= slide down 200 m into the rocks/trees, I would crank up my DIN level a few notches.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

BTW, if it's too steep to groom, they can always use a winch on the cat. If it's much too steep to groom it won't hold snow anyway.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... · Piste Security - 02.12.1999

The more resorts are pressurised into issuing complicated risk assessment piste maps, the greater the potential liability to claims. By complying with this kind of demand, they would be accepting an ever greater responsibility to inform, taking an increasing part of the onus of responsibility away from the customer. And where does it stop? Who decides where to draw the line? It wouldn't just be a question of a rainbow-coloured piste map, with blacks of various shades of grey. You would need a dozen maps in fact - showing risk level under all the different conditions possible. How do you quantify the risk level on a high traffic, low altitude, west-facing blue run with a couple of steep sections first thing in the morning after a hot previous afternoon and an overnight heavy frost? After a busy hour, for some, it'll be like an ice rink. Mid afternoon, warmed by the sun, it'll be a doddle though. Yet a steep black, high up in the domain, unaffected by the previous day's thaw, will be a joy to ski - even for some intermediates.

Resorts already err on the cautious side. Documents state clearly that black runs are "very difficult", for "advanced skiers". If you have any doubts at all, you shouldn't ski them. Visitors should consider taking lessons first - instructors will soon tell them what they are or are not capable of tackling.

WTFH ventured to ask "What is an expert skier?" well that's a question people have argued about on SH before. Maybe the S & R and similar gradings, plus "chalet chat", can lead some people to overestimate their abilities. My view is that amongst snowHead

s, all 4,264 of them, there may be no more than a dozen or so genuinely expert skiers - the full-time pros and two or three gifted amateurs who spend virtually all season in the mountains, and have done so for some years.

Afnor standard NF S52-100 governs the classification and security of ski runs in France - it isn't a completely random system of grading organised according to the whim of individual resorts (sorry you can't download the whole document, there's a sizeable fee for access). The official resorts website www.skifrance.fr summarises this as (not my translation, sorry, they've used a Frenchman to translate into English rolling eyes

) :

After all it is free

Even a red is classified as "difficult" in France - and that's in normal snow and weather conditions. If you're not up to a "difficult" run, you shouldn't be there! It's not the ice that makes people fall over - it's the lack of technique and/or poorly prepared equipment. Skis begin to slip, fear causes the skier to lean uphill away from the 'fall', there's no longer any weight at all on the all-important downhill ski as a result, and bang!

Why should icy runs be closed? - some people are capable of carving them cleanly from top to bottom. Even if you're not quite at that standard, rare is the slope where your edges won't bite sooner or later - as long as your weight remains at the correct balance point over your skis and you don't fall over! When it looks dodgy, prepare a route down in your mind, check out the patches of loose snow to aim for, or if there aren't enough of them, stick to the very edge of the slope. There is always at least some loose snow there.

Sometimes what people describe as ice is hardpacked snow rather than boilerplate. 'Unskiable' through a combination of lack of technique and blunt edges. But even if it's ice, there is invariably a safe way down.

These are typical springtime conditions. I don't think the resorts should have to do anything else other than put up a sign warning of ice at the top of the run.

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Well said.

Help!!

Too steep to groom?

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