Too steep to groom?

A snowHead

Last week I headed down a steep black groomer that I'd enjoyed the previous afternoon. I really wish I hadn't.

First let me acknowledge my mistakes. I should have realised that a west-facing run would be icy in the morning. I should have sharpened my skis. I should have been looking out for death cookies. And I should have recognised that I'm not actually a very good skier. Pride comes before a fall, and fall I did. But what happened next still scares me rigid when I think about it.

Although I fell at a low speed, my skis popped off - those death cookies again - and I accelerated down the ice sheet. I tried to dig in my heels and toes but nothing could stop me from becoming became a human bobsleigh for 400 yards. I love skiing fast, but this terrified me - my bigest concern was to avoid going down headfirst. I eventually shot off the piste at a bend without having slowed down at all, missed a tree by inches and buried myself in a snowdrift.

I'm not exaggerating when I say that one error nearly killed me. Am I being a weed? Or was the resort irresponsible to leave a trail in such a condition? Is it really safe to groom extremely steep runs, especially where local conditions mean that an early morning ice sheet is almost inevitable?

A snowHead

Jonny Jones Where did this happen?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

They were not irresponsible ...

When you click in at the top, you and only you are responsible for how you get down a trail.

It's skiing for gawd's sake not 10-pin bowling.

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Your slide sounds very scary.

Although I've never needed to use it, one technique I read about self-arrest on a steep slope is to get onto your front, feet first if possible, and to raise yourslef on to your toes and fists as if you were doing a press-up. This way you put all your weight onto four small points, which will hopefully allow you enough grip on the snow/ice to slow down.

Does well-tracked off-piste reach the same kind of hard packed snow as the groomed run you fell on, given enough skiers and sun? I'm not sure that grooming steep terrain is necessarily a dangerous thing.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The resort was Panorama in Canada. I don't want to bad-mouth them as, apart from this one experience, I find it hard to criticise the resort. In most cases the piste patrol marked up the quality of snow on each run with painstaking accuracy.

smolo, I understand your sentiments. But I often ski with my kids and, while they're generally well capable of skiing blacks, they could never have got down that run on that morning without hurting themselves. Runs often get closed or have prominent warnings because of exposed rocks, so why not because of ice?

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rob@rar.org.uk, I tried that technique and it's worth repeating for the benefit of snowheads who don't know it. It didn't work for me because the sloope was too steep, but I've got the holes in my gloves to prove I tried. I guess I'd have gone even faster if I hadn't done it, though.

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Jonny Jones, A nasty experience. I have used a ski pole as a brake with both hands, when faced with a similar set of circs. I think I went into survival mode, kept hanging on and digging in until I stopped. Shoulders hurt like hell the day after though, and can't recommend my technique wink

AFAIK good grooming, can reduce the buildup of icy patches by breaking up the surface, and/or dumping new snow over problem areas.

After all it is free

brian · Last edited by brian on Thu 23-03-06 17:48; edited 1 time in total

Jonny Jones, as bad as that I would've expected a warning sign saying something to the effect of icy conditions - experts only.

rob@rar.org.uk, unpisted, a run like that would surely be covered in big bumps which would've slowed Jonny Jones down somewhat.

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Jonny Jones, Panorama does seem to be prone to ice.

I had a similar experience to yours on an innocuous looking red in Davos. I lost my skis when I tried, perhaps foolishly, to use a piste marker in the middle of the piste to stop, at fairly low speed. I tried to use my pole to brake (useless, in case you're wondering). I didn't know of rob@rar.org.uk's press up technique; how the hell do you do that when you're travelling down a slope on your *rse at high speed? Mine ended in snowdrift too; bloody cold, but otherwise fine.

smolo 10 pin bowling is not without its dangers. I once bowled off the wrong foot, hit myself on the back of the knee with the ball, fell and slid half way down the alley on my back. The only injury was to my mates, who ruptured themselves laughing (and still do at the recollection).

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Grooming flattens out moguls. Where I'm coming from is the thought that the run would have been a whole lot safer with a few bumps in it.

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It was probably in a better state groomed than ice polished. There can be benefits when skiing steeps to having a decently high DIN on your skis to prevent total release, where consequence of an uncontrolled slide may be worse then a shredded knee, (caveat obviously your DIN is your own responsibility). Usually N American resorts put up signs on ungroomed runs saying conditions are firm and any falls may result in long slides but I guess not always on groomers.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

the ice perv, still, it's not impossible - they've just held a memorial in Les Arcs for a Flying K racer who died a year ago when he slipped at the top of a black (on his normal skis) and slid/bounced all the way to the bottom. Probably about 600 metres or so.

A snowHead

Possibly not 400 yards but that's an honest estimate made by me and my wife when we skiied the run when conditions were better the next day.

It's a great run when the snow's soft. But it really needs some bumps or a big fat warning sign when it's icy. I'd never forgive myself if my kids fell down something like that when I was leading them.

A snowHead

If the run was black then I don't see the need to warn people that it might be difficult. If it's warm during the day and freezes at night then it should be obvious (as Jonny Jones, has admitted) that it would be icy first thing. A nasty experience (it's happened to me too), but one of skiing's little lessons.

Black runs are difficult and no amount of grooming will make bad snow good. These conditions were pretty normal in Cairngorm when I was working there BTW. rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Having just got back from St Anton where grading is not their best point I can testify to the variability of blacks, we stopped in Nasserin on the first night we went down the black straight into the village and it was a softish but steep mogul field in bad light, doeable. Next few mornings before the rest of the crew got up I did it as my first run, it was always freshly groomed and superb nothing like a real black. Last but one day when the thaw freeze cycle had set in it was so well groomed and cordury ice it was painful to ski down on the feet, not tehcnically challenging just not pleasant for a first run. Missed it the last morning and stayed high, last run of the holiday was back down this black and it was a bald badly lit ice rink with lots of nervous looking people on (just like me) the only soft snow being in clumps near the edge, not a pleasant end to a great week so I bailed onto the blue track to join it later. Moral - blacks are as the conditions find them and can vary on a day to day basis.

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Which run was it in Panorama? Was there earlier in the season, but fortunately we had deep powder Very Happy

. I am quite surprised that it wasn't detailed because as you said they really do give good information about the runs at the bottom of the lifts.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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I sympathise with the experience but thems the conditions, I'm afraid. I'm not sure I like the idea of pistes being overly manicured in general. Look on the bright side if you can get technique to cope with that it will make you a better skier IMV

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Black runs vary enormously according to conditions, but I have to say if you couldn't ski it when it was icy the morning after being groomed, then I doubt that you would have found it any easier if it was covered in big icy bumps.

After all it is free

I heard from my hotel neighbour They stopped grooming Wengen's "Oh God" starting this year to avoid creating a long steep sheet of ice on which if you fall slide down to the bottom (there is basically no 'flatter' bit until it joins back with blackrock).

People apparently stopped using the piste and went outside the piste markers simply to avoid the ice sheet.

Probably D G Orf can shed some light on this as well Smile

I had a similar experience in Lake Louise, somewhere over the back bowls I think. We had to cross the piste to get to the chairlift, but the only way across was a sheet of blue-green ice. Normally the pistes were wellmarked with marginal conditions, but not this time.

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I fell on Whistler's Couloir Extreme - just popped out of my skis on the very foirst compression. Luckily one ski stayed put, but both I and the other ski suddenly started to go downhill very quickly.

From being on my front, face down the mountain (like the tea-tray people at the olympics), I mamanged to spin round and get my feet down the mountain - but digging in my heels made no difference. I turned over onto my front and slowed myself down quite quickly using the "press-up" technique, I reckon I travelled about 10 yards in total. I then watched with dismay through my legs as my second ski continued to bounce over the moguls, picking up speed until it launched itself and then became buried some 20 yards below me.

One kind chap brought down the ski that had stopped above me and my mate skiied (boarded) down to stop some "helpful" skiier carrying my other ski down the piste while I did a reverse bootpack down to to it. Once I;d managed to get the skis back on, I emjoyed the rest of the run, but the point of the tale was to show that the "press-up" technique is effective if applied quickly - and in snow where you can get a hold, obviously.

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I did a similar thing at christmas ....caused serious 'loss of bottle' damage to my brain Crying or Very sad

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How are things now, Lorraine? I don't remember reading an update.
Jonny Jones, sounds terrifying Shocked

Can someone talk us through the 'press up' technique, please? It sounds simple, but I bet that it's not. Bear in mind that you are addressing an audience not used to such physical exertion.

You know it makes sense.

The press-up technique is ude to stop yourself if you fall and start to slide. you need to get into position so that you are heading down the mountain feet first, with your chest down. then try to do a push up.

the idea is that you extend your arms fully so that most of your wieght is on your toes. you can bend at the waist to help as well I suppose. Once you have wieght going through your toes, your weight will casue them to dig in and slow you down

does that help?

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Any danger of pivoting at the toes and tumbling backwards? Shocked

A snowHead

richmond, it's described (and illustrated with a few photos) in the book "Off Piste" by Wayne Watson, one of the guides at Alpine Experience in Val d'Isere.

If you are sliding after losing both skis, swing your feet below you so you sliding feet first. Roll onto your stomach, then push yourself up with your hands so that only your feet (toes of your ski boots) and hands are in contact with the snow (better to ball your hands into a fist than keep your fingers splayed). It's easier to do, apparently, if you keep your body rigid (I guess that fear might help with this?), and if you aren't able to raise your body off the snow from directly under your chest, you can start with your arms above your head and drag them down to underneath your chest raising your body at the same time. It is exactly the same motion as doing a press up, so nothing complicated to remember.

A snowHead

if it's steep enough for that then you'll be accelerating so fast you won;t have time for the press-up technique. Bear in mind that Couloir extreme is fairly steep and I stopped quite quickly.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Thanks, chaps. Sounds simple enough, but since I struggle to do a decent press up when stationery, I'm not confident.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Anniegirl, the run was Millenium. I'd been chatting to one of the resort's Mountain Friends the previous day and he told me that, in his view, the run was dangerous given the present snow conditions. Unfortuately his comments just made me want to try it all the more - I figured that if it was really as bad as he made out, the resort would put up a warning sign or close the run. I guess that's another reason why the incident was largely my fault.

I can't agree with Kramer's view that icy bumps are harder than a smooth ice sheet. Many resorts piste half a run and, if conditions are icy, I alway find it easier to ski down the bumps than the smooth half. Given soft snow, I enjoy either.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

I was aware of the press up technique, although I had never practised it, when I took a tumble at the top of a steep couloir which had a rock and a nasty drop in the wrong place, in St Anton a few years ago. Over I went head first face downwards. I think adrenalin kicked in because I instantly spun round and twisted myself head upwards into the press up position. One quick press up and hey presto - it worked!

Even though I only rolled over once, I ended up twenty feet below where I fell because of the steepness. The key to doing it is that you must do it instantly otherwise you will just be going too fast. You possibly only have one chance to get it right. The press up itself is also easier than you might think, because after all you are almost halfway off the horizontal when you try it on a steep slope.

I would add that the snow was about four days old but still in reasonable condition or else we would not have attempted it in the first place.

After all it is free

Ronald,
I believe that is correct.
I was told that the catalyst for the decision was the death of a skiier last season in those circumstances - a fall followed by a very long slide.

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I have to admit that I did a fall and slide on the Ziel shus of the Lauberhorn downhill. Slid from the top to the bottom in a cloud of snow laughing my head off.

It was the first time I had ever attempted to do it and was watching a small child who had slipped over on the same run, got too close to the edge of the slope, hit sheet ice and slipped over, not a very dignified way of coming down the slope especially as I was skiing with a group and the rest of the group was watching me. The only good thing about it was that I did not lose any of my equipment so I just got up, brushed myself off and skied on. The group leader suggested the ski pole technique but I have never tried it.

I have managed that slope a good many time since and have most of the time got down it in once piece!!!!!

Help!!

Too steep to groom?

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