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Sharing lift passes in Les Arcs for parents

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Alex A wrote:
Bottom line.. buy a lift pass per person skiing and stop being cheap skates. Seriously. The mind boggles.

Do you hand out hundreds of Euros when you don't have too?

There is being a cheap skate and there is being silly with your money.... and then there is being sensible and checking out whether you need to pay for something or not.
ski holidays     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Markymark29 wrote:
Quote:

why is this ridiculous thread in the weather / snow conditions forum?



Bottom line.. buy a lift pass per person skiing and stop being cheap skates. Seriously. The mind boggles.


@Alex A, +1.....Scroats....

Arsewipe
latest report     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
the rules are clear - they can specify any rules they want . . . . there are those here who don't like them so try and get round them and if they get fined that's their look out. They could say anything they want . . ." you can have a discount if you order your ski pass in a handstand" and if you cant do a handstand then you pay full price. That's how the world goes round and there is a fining system for those who try and get round the rules/law/T&Cs. Simples.
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@holidayloverxx, It took some Marathon-man-esque drilling to get there, after some initial evasiveness. For me, RZ's exchange was also pretty clear in that her reply was related to sharing. She have just said it's not allowed.

I'm still bemused at why even now people think it's somehow worthy of abuse an attempt to get the best possible value for money. Either it's just low grade trolling, or maybe they really do like paying over the odds for things, in which case please carry on, makes it cheaper for the rest of us.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Layne, Nice, thanks for that rolling eyes ......buy a pass if you want to ski and use the lift companies infrastructure, same as people who drive their vehicles around the streets without paying car tax, they deserve to get caught.

If you can find a way round it good for you, you've done yourself proud, and all the other fellow skiers a great disservice imv.
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Markymark29 wrote:
@Layne, Nice, thanks for that rolling eyes ......buy a pass if you want to ski and use the lift companies infrastructure, same as people who drive their vehicles around the streets without paying car tax, they deserve to get caught.

If you can find a way round it good for you, you've done yourself proud, and all the other fellow skiers a great disservice imv.


0.00001 / 10. Very unoriginal bait.

The lift company themselves have done us proud by helping us cheat their own system. But feel free to encourage others to chuck money away, brings down the cost for the rest of us.
ski holidays     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
alti - dude wrote:
the rules are clear

They're not... as this thread shows.
snow report     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Markymark29 wrote:
@Layne, Nice, thanks for that rolling eyes ......buy a pass if you want to ski and use the lift companies infrastructure, same as people who drive their vehicles around the streets without paying car tax, they deserve to get caught.

If you can find a way round it good for you, you've done yourself proud, and all the other fellow skiers a great disservice imv.

The whole thread is about what you have to pay, what is allowed, whether you will get "caught", what happens if you get caught.

It's not the first thread on the subject.

It's the same debate as the tax avoidance versus tax evasion. People aren't trying to scam the lift companies, they are asking what the lift company allows - either through the T&C's or what is not written in the T&C's - as in lift personnel saying it's OK to share under the OP circumstances. If it was clear cut there would be multiple long threads on the subject with various viewpoints and anecdotal evidence.

And regardless of all that calling people scroats for discussing it is unnecessary.
ski holidays     
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
This thread is amazing

The lift company was asked DIRECTLY, and gave an answer.
Yet people are not happy with that answer and are claiming the moral highground

The lift company's opinion is the only one that matters here surely?


Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Fri 8-02-19 15:21; edited 1 time in total
snow conditions     
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@mrvinegar, It's the thread that keep on giving.

To be honest the first set of jokers claiming fraud and theft were at least amusingly deluded. The latest batch are just low grade trolls desperately in need of some decent material.
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mrvinegar wrote:
This thread is amazing

The lift company was asked DIRECTLY, and gave an answer.
Yet people are not happy with that answer and are claiming the moral highground

The lift company's opinion is the only one that matters here surely?


I'm not claiming the moral high ground. I haven't commented at all on whether it is right or wrong. that is for people individually to decide. My comments about the lift company's answer was simply that IMHO it did not explicitly answer the question being asked.
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 And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Been following this thread- a point about the speculation that the lift company may photograph the skier on first use of the pass - I have no idea if Paradiski do this or not, but under GDPR if they do do it, this must be stated explicitly in the T&Cs ( personal images of customers will be taken and used to prevent fraudulent use of passes etc) . So the OP should have a look at the T&Cs, and if there is nothing about use of images for this purpose, then it can be deduced that Paradiski doesn’t image customers. If they do image customers, they must explicitly state they they do and the reason for storing these images.
snow conditions     
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@Android2000, A good point. The Online T&Cs mention photographs they need for the purpose of season passes, but I can find no mention of pictures taken at any other point, e.g. first use. Under GDPR, that sort of information would be a minefield to manage - someone asks (as is their right) for their data to be removed; how do you find out which is their picture amongst thousands of pics of folks in ski gear ? And if no T&Cs have been agreed to in the case of an unnamed pass bought at an skipass office, they'd obviously not be able to take one - you could never identify whose data you have.
snow report     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
eblunt wrote:
@mrvinegar, It's the thread that keep on giving.

To be honest the first set of jokers claiming fraud and theft were at least amusingly deluded. The latest batch are just low grade trolls desperately in need of some decent material.


This is just a skiing forum with people expressing opinions. IMO No need for this sort of tone on here whether you are right or wrong.
ski holidays     
 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I don't believe any first use photos are taken in Paradaski area. If they are they hide the cameras inredibly well! I've watched my kids names flash up on screen when they've come through behind me - no photos
snow report     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ozboy wrote:
eblunt wrote:
@mrvinegar, It's the thread that keep on giving.

To be honest the first set of jokers claiming fraud and theft were at least amusingly deluded. The latest batch are just low grade trolls desperately in need of some decent material.



This is just a skiing forum with people expressing opinions. IMO No need for this sort of tone on here whether you are right or wrong.


Point taken. The people I'm referring to expressed these opinions such as these :

"I guess having your kids around will make it even easier to keep your thieving ways in the family."

and "scroats"

Maybe you should address your comments to them as well however.
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@eblunt, I didn’t see these comments and agreed that is uncalled for. I would have reacted in the same but all water under the bridge now.
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
There can never have been a funnier thread - fantastic! Laughing. Well done everyone - especially those who have been so unwittingly amusing.

It's a total Brexit issue - you're either for it or against it wink
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@mountainaddict, does that mean we're going to hold a referendum on it? Toofy Grin

Could there be a backstop arrangement to allow barrier free access? Very Happy
snow conditions     
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@mountainaddict, I'm delighted you've been so amused by it. Someone earlier on here likened it to Brexit, and it had all the hallmarks of it. Some magnificent project fear work, gammonesque squealing, fantasy world analogies, refusal to accept overwhelming evidence. Also very Brexit like, in that the early very vocal protagonists have now suddenly dissapeared without trace Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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holidayloverxx wrote:
@Ray Zorro, as @eblunt the T&Cs says non transferrable. I don't think you would have been going round in circles, the answer would have been a simple yes or no, and that would have been and end to it. I can't help you to understand my interpretation, but when someone answers a different question to the one that was asked it could mean anything. Turn it round the other way. Q: is the pass named? A: No. That still doesn't say it can be shared just that there is no name on it. How does her answer help if you are stopped at the turnstile because the photo that was taken on first use does not match the later uses? Maybe it doesn't take photos of day passes? we don't know.


There are no photos taken at any gates in the Paradiski area.
ski holidays     
 Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@alasdair.graham@hotmail.c, Interesting. How do you know for sure ? I suspected as much, and that stories of first use pics being taken in Paradiski were scare stories.

If true, then there is absolutely no way the lift operators would ever be able to challenge someone with an unnamed pass anyway ( provided they confirm to the right age range ).
snow report     
 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
@eblunt, This tech to identify users is already here but obviously not everywhere. Serfaus-Fiss-Ladis in Austria have the system in place and I have seen the small camera lenses (size of phone lens) located on the post that holds the scanner and turnstile. They are a very modern progressive resort in many ways and also offer a Young Family Ticket for couples for two adults to share tickets if they have a child under 3YO. It's interesting reading and clear of what they allow, how they deal with fraudsters (their words) by fining them, and what they do with the photos. See below...

---------------------------

https://www.serfaus-fiss-ladis.at/en/winter/ski-pass-prices/conditions-ski-pass

General provisions
The “Serfaus-Fiss-Ladis” ski pass entitles the bearer to use all of the lifts in service within the period of validity in accordance with the price terms and conditions of carriage. Ski passes are not transferable. A ski pass may not be traded in at a later date in exchange for another, nor may the period of validity be postponed to a later date.

Inspections and fraudulent use
Admission checks are carried out in the valley terminals of the cable cars using automatic scanners. You are kindly requested to follow the instructions of the staff and use the ticket inspection machines properly. On-the-spot inspections take place in the ski area. For this reason you should always carry your ski pass on your person. Any incident of fraudulent use or bypassing of the scanners shall result in the immediate confiscation of the ski pass. We reserve the right to report the offence to the police. Anyone caught in the inspection zones without a valid ski pass shall be required to pay a fine set at twice the all-day ticket rate. A receipt showing that the fine has been paid can be used as a ski pass on the same day. Please note that under the Austrian railways liability act, only customers with a valid ski pass are covered for insurance purposes. Do not buy any ski passes from unauthorised vendors – such ski passes may be blocked! Furthermore, you are committing an offence by doing so!

Kindly note that for admission control purposes a reference photo shall be taken of the lift pass holders when they pass through a turnstile equipped with a camera for the first time. Lift personnel shall compare this photographic image with photos taken each time the user passes through a turnstile equipped with a camera.
The reference photo shall be immediately deleted immediately upon expiry of the lift pass validity; other photos shall be deleted no later than 30 minutes after the user passes through a turnstile.


Last edited by After all it is free Go on u know u want to! on Fri 8-02-19 21:27; edited 1 time in total
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My photo flashes on the screen when I pass through the gate(season pass, and it's the photo I provided them)
For day and week passes it is just adult or child that displays on the screens, I have stood and watched them many times whilst passing through.
From my experience ski areas that take your photo at gate on 1st use are pretty clear about letting you know they do this- Kitzbhuel for example it's very clear when buying online or at ski pass office.

Nothing to worry about doing this in Les Arcs, well apart from maybe going to straight to hell that is Twisted Evil
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Android2000 wrote:
Been following this thread- a point about the speculation that the lift company may photograph the skier on first use of the pass - I have no idea if Paradiski do this or not, but under GDPR if they do do it, this must be stated explicitly in the T&Cs ( personal images of customers will be taken and used to prevent fraudulent use of passes etc) . So the OP should have a look at the T&Cs, and if there is nothing about use of images for this purpose, then it can be deduced that Paradiski doesn’t image customers. If they do image customers, they must explicitly state they they do and the reason for storing these images.

If they are collecting pictures - which it now appears Paradiski are not - I agree with this for internet-bought passes, as they are linked to a named individual. But for non-season passes bought in resort it is at best a grey area: no name or other personal data is associated with the pass, so a photograph alone is arguably not personal information.
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@Ozboy, Excellent information. I never doubted this technology existed, just not in Paradiski yet.

I'm sure they will bring this in for Paradiski, coupled with ceasing to sell unnamed passes in resort, and ensuring that the T&Cs are acknowledged wherever the pass is purchased. To be honest it makes sense - makes things consistent. Hopefully at the same time they will introduced some sort of shared pass offering.

Until then , sharing an unnamed pass is OK, enjoy it while it lasts Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@ecureuil, "so a photograph alone is arguably not personal information"

Sorry but I disagree. A photo ( even encased in ski gear ) is very much personal information. The fact that they can't trace who it belongs to doesn't make it any less so. It makes even more tricky for them of course, as if I know my picture has been taken , they are legally obliged to be able to delete it, and they would have no way of being able work out which picture it is.

This in a nutshell is why they are constrained from preventing lift pass sharing. Until they upgrade systems, install cameras, update T&Cs ( to reflect gate cameras ) and enforce them across all sales, then they have their hands tied.

I'm sure they'll get round to it, and when they do we will all have to adhere to the rules.
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 So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Alex A wrote:
why is this ridiculous thread in the weather / snow conditions forum?

Bottom line.. buy a lift pass per person skiing and stop being cheap skates. Seriously. The mind boggles.

I have absolutely no idea why this thread is in that forum

Thanks for your really useful advice on the pass front, I apologise for thinking that paying 260£ for a pass that I will not use essentially is perfectly acceptable. Maybe that money is easier for you to come across...
ski holidays     
 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Markymark29 wrote:
Quote:

why is this ridiculous thread in the weather / snow conditions forum?



Bottom line.. buy a lift pass per person skiing and stop being cheap skates. Seriously. The mind boggles.


@Alex A, +1.....Scroats....


Why are people like this using websites like this, and commenting! Surely it is be beneath them? Wow they are superior to us all...

Seriously ‘scroat’ ..... what an absolute astounding use of trolling to ultimately make sure everyone know what a great guy Alex A is
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 Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
eblunt wrote:
@Ozboy, Excellent information. I never doubted this technology existed, just not in Paradiski yet.

I'm sure they will bring this in for Paradiski, coupled with ceasing to sell unnamed passes in resort, and ensuring that the T&Cs are acknowledged wherever the pass is purchased. To be honest it makes sense - makes things consistent. Hopefully at the same time they will introduced some sort of shared pass offering.

Until then , sharing an unnamed pass is OK, enjoy it while it lasts Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


Yes second eblunt, thanks for the useful information Ozboy

Thanks for all that has taken the time to try and help us come to some useful conclusions, even with a dash of amusement from some members
snow conditions     
 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
eblunt wrote:
@ecureuil,

A photo ( even encased in ski gear ) is very much personal information. The fact that they can't trace who it belongs to doesn't make it any less so. It makes even more tricky for them of course, as if I know my picture has been taken , they are legally obliged to be able to delete it, and they would have no way of being able work out which picture it is.


All ski passes have a number and an expiry date.

Presumably they can use either/both the locate the photo.
snow conditions     
 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Chris_n wrote:
Was it ever OK to share one tax disc between 2 cars (when there were tax discs), NO is the answer. You can use all of the same arguments about getting away with it etc but it is just plain wrong!

That isn't the argument at all. Should I have to pay for an extra tax disk if I want to drive my wife's car is more applicable.
ski holidays     
 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I would be interested in seeing their Data Flow / Data Inventory in which they must have a "legal basis for processing" of that personal data [the photo taken of an individual at time of 1st use of the card] - especially if they state in the T&Cs that tickets sold in person in resort are non-assigned.

Actually, one of us submitting a DSAR to the Compagnie Des Alpes would in fact solve all this 'confusion'. What they hold, why they hold it, how long they hold it for; would all come out in the wash.
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Surely selling a parent/carer pass would be a good attraction to a ski area.
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@Scamper, Not unless you give them the pass number, and you might have thrown the card away or lost it, and with hundreds of other cards expiring on the same date they'd have no way of knowing which pic it is the pic of you.

@Arctic Roll, Yes very interested. For now it's obvious they only have pictures of season pass holders on their database.
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@eblunt, Definition of personal data for GDPR:
Quote:
‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;

For non-season passes bought in resort they don't hold any identification data - they can link the photo to the ski-pass but can't take it further to an individual. So they don't have to worry about someone requesting a deletion. (For a few people, e.g well-known celebs or perhaps someone with a massive social media presence, a photo alone may be regarded as personal data - if the individual can be readily identifed from it. For the rest of us it simply isn't).

If someone you don't know takes a photo of you, on the piste or elsewhere, they don't immediately hold personal data on you under the GDPR. You may not like it, and you could perhaps make a polite request for them to delete it, but unless it is an offence in that jurisdiction (e.g some photos of children) they don't even have to do that.
ski holidays     
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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@ecureuil, "If someone you don't know takes a photo of you, on the piste or elsewhere, they don't immediately hold personal data on you under the GDPR"

No because as an individual they don't have to sign up to GDPR. Different for an commercial organisation holding people's data. I'd be very surprised (and proved wrong not for the first time) if a lift company doesn't have to be able to find and delete photos they have taken of someone. I really don't think they can have personal data (which I believe a pic of you in ski gear is) floating around with no foolproof way of being able to work out who it belongs to.
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 After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
After all it is free Go on u know u want to!
Arctic Roll wrote:
I would be interested in seeing their Data Flow / Data Inventory in which they must have a "legal basis for processing" of that personal data [the photo taken of an individual at time of 1st use of the card] - especially if they state in the T&Cs that tickets sold in person in resort are non-assigned.

Actually, one of us submitting a DSAR to the Compagnie Des Alpes would in fact solve all this 'confusion'. What they hold, why they hold it, how long they hold it for; would all come out in the wash.


Partial answer here, in SATA (Alpe d'Huez lift co.) it says they keep video used by lift operators etc. for "security" for 30 days :-

https://assets.alpedhuez.com/fichiers/userfiles/200/gdpr.pdf

Don't know if that is the sort of thing you are talking about as I know zilch about GDPR Laughing

Actually I misread it, Embarassed it says they only keep the photos at the gates for the duration of the pass ?

RT-004: LIFT ACCESS CONTROL
 Goals of processing: lift access control and verification of transport ticket
ownership
 Data collected: dates and times of access to lifts, photograph at access terminal (on
the lifts with this equipment)
 Data used for verification: pass number, age, access terminal photograph
 Data conservation period: transport ticket validity period
 Data recipients: lift personnel, certified inspectors
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I would just crack on, it may be against their t&c's but the chances of being challenged are slim. Even if they took pics I would say they would be useless due to helmets, goggles and buffs. I also change me jacket and sallos so I would deffo look like someone else.
I think its fair, if you are only using it separately then what's the issue?


Go for it I say, I would.
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@Corduroy, If you buy an unnamed pass in the resort there are no T&Cs. They don't take pics. Therefore there's absolutely nothing they can do to detect an unnamed pass being shared.

So basically they can't stop something that they legally don't have the right to stop anyway.
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