 Poster: A snowHead
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| henzerani wrote: |
| I skied with Topski in Val last year and most of the time there was no issue. There were two of us who were both new to guiding so we were probably treating the guide like an instructor and mimicking his moves. We toured out to find powder on the last day and when we did he asked us to make nice lines next to each other but we were all (4 of us by then) fairly wide apart and didn't get commented on. In fact the whole thing seemed very laid back. |
I did some guiding with Top Ski in Val more than a decade OK and had a similar experience.
| henzerani wrote: |
| I fart in cable cars, then look around in disgust. Unless my daughter is with me because she rats me out. |
Yeah children have no qualms about ratting on you, even though you saved their back bottom (from mum) many a time. You try and tell new dads this but they are too gooey eyed to listen.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Snow-farming is beyond lame. Any guide even tries to pull that crap and I am offski (although the chances of me actually booking a guide these days are pretty slim anyway - maybe if that Alaska trip ever comes off).
I remember (dreamily) looking at (unaffordable) heliski trips a few years ago and some of them even had farming in the Ts & Cs, with the caveat that snowboarders who wanted to make "big turns" had to wait until last and then make their turns back and forward across everyone else's tracks. Ehhh.... no.....
My personal bugbear is people who do ludicrous traverses to get into the bottom third or so of a pitch, rather than hike for a few minutes to get in at the top. Landmines are too good for them. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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First come, first served IMO. If they tried to pull that I'd just ignore them and make fresh tracks anyway. There's no way I'm skiing on churned up snow when there's fresh powder sitting sitting there.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I wasn' t asked to ski in skied out snow. Just to ski beside other tracks rather than cut up the whole hill. I think that is the middle ground.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Haven't skied with a guide for a few years but when I did ....
If it was a resort (e.g. St Anton) then the powder would generally be farmed to give others (their next clients probably) more chance of also skiing untracked powder.
If it was away from a resort (e.g. ski touring in the silvrettas) then we would be encouraged to ski where we wanted.
Sometimes if there were dangers the guide would say something like "ski parallel but tight to the right of my track. Don't ski lower than me and stop near to me but never below me". Once got a bollocking for skiing too close to the guide, he went sharp right and I didn't have the same control as he so skied on into a stream. 
On those rare days that I get a chance to ski small resorts midweek with almost nobody else around skiing powder then I generally farm it first and blast through the tracks later with larger turns.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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"Keep Your Tracks Close
At Alpine Experience we insist that our clients keep their tracks tight. This allows 3 or 4 groups to ski a slope instead of one. It permits us to come back for a second run or more, or save some untracked snow for another day. If necessary, we can get seven skiers down a space no wider than 2 and a half metres across"
Off Piste With Wayne Watson.
That book is a bot of a bible around the E-K, that quote is part of a chapter on etiquette (and generally I am with him).
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7 skiers in 2.5m wide strip?? bug that. I'm all for not trashing the entire slope, but there's a degree of middle ground and I want to have some fun!
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| Quote: |
we can get seven skiers down a space no wider than 2 and a half metres across"
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I would rather someone else hammered the slope leaving me with nothing than forcing everyone to ski in such a joyless and constrained manner.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| JamesN wrote: |
| There's no way I'm skiing on churned up snow when there's fresh powder sitting sitting there. |
That's not what you are being asked to do, didn't you understand that?
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| gorilla wrote: |
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we can get seven skiers down a space no wider than 2 and a half metres across"
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I would rather someone else hammered the slope leaving me with nothing than forcing everyone to ski in such a joyless and constrained manner. |
Why is it joyless just because it is constrained? Surely consideration for others is a basic tenet of civilised society and especially so in the mountains?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Why is it joyless just because it is constrained? Surely consideration for others is a basic tenet of civilised society and especially so in the mountains?
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I guess it's just because for me getting out into the mountains is about wilderness and freedom not regimentation.
Another pleasure of off piste skiing is choosing your line, playing with the terrain features. To be fair, when you go with a guide you do sacrifice a chunk of autonomy and independence - that is understood. But I am really paying a guide to take me somewhere more adventurous than I would be comfortable unguided and 7 skiers in a 2.5m channel sounds deeply, deeply unadventurous to me. That said I've hardly ever skied off piste in a group that big.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Layne wrote: |
| gorilla wrote: |
| Quote: |
we can get seven skiers down a space no wider than 2 and a half metres across"
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I would rather someone else hammered the slope leaving me with nothing than forcing everyone to ski in such a joyless and constrained manner. |
Why is it joyless just because it is constrained? Surely consideration for others is a basic tenet of civilised society and especially so in the mountains? |
It probably sounds very pretentious, but probably the biggest attraction of the mountains for me is that they are a wild space without rules where you are free to do what you want (as long as it doesn't endanger others) - along with the reality that it's only your decisions and knowledge (and luck at times, I guess) that keep you alive.
That's one of the reasons I much prefer to ski unguided, even though it generally means I have to be more cautious and conservative with terrain, as it feels more adventurous and I actively enjoy the feeling that 'I'm taking my life in my hands' (though I'm hardly doing anything particularly extreme!). I love feeling competent in that sort of setting. I guess it's a caveman thing.
Putting such tight constraints in completely takes away that freedom, and allows no creativity to exploit terrain features in a line. The only option left is little wiggles directly down the fall line. To me, it feels like further step towards the disneyfication of the mountains that you see in all resorts and pistes and snow parks etc: a managed resource, not free and open and wild terrain.
FWIW the only resorts that I have skied with a guy were in Japan and St Anton (I guess Gulmarg too, but that hardly counts as a resort), and in both the only constraint any of the guides put on where/how we could ski was things like 'don't go left of my line/that terrain feature for safety's sake.' In terms of snow it was always first come first served, go and have fun, or oh it's already tracked we'll go somewhere else.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 1-12-16 13:25; edited 2 times in total
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| Quote: |
| I guess it's just because for me getting out into the mountains is about wilderness and freedom not regimentation. |
I was testing the argument on joy versus constrained as used by gorilla. You've introduced the word regimentation which puts a new slant on it. I certainly felt constrained whenever skiing with a guide (did a couple of days with Top Ski in EK mid season) but not regimented.
To be honest if you want wilderness and freedom I am not sure Val D'Isere mid season in a guided group is the place to be. And perhaps is where the common theme of this thread goes. It makes perfect sense for the guide companies and most of their punters - it's not the wilful abandon of finding your own slopes and doing what you will with them. I guess you are either satisfied with what they offer or you'd rather get your kicks elsewhere.
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| I am really paying a guide to take me somewhere more adventurous than I would be comfortable unguided and 7 skiers in a 2.5m channel sounds deeply, deeply unadventurous to me. |
I suspect most guides will work to the direction of the clients within the constrains of the environment they are working and in the ability of the clients. If you told them you are not paying for that and want the freedom to ride the slope as you see fit I guess if they need the business they will do it. They may well leave the punter slopes alone and get more obscure, they may not.
I think part of the problem is we are looking at two extremes. I suspect "7 skiers in a 2.5m channel" is a rarity as it indicates when it says "If necessary...". Just as being in a sea of virgin powder with nobody else to care about is a rarity. I guess most of us, most of the time we don't even think about it. We don't trash the slopes, we find a line, we ski down, we leave something for the next guy. What else is there.
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You know it makes sense.
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To be honest if you want wilderness and freedom I am not sure Val D'Isere mid season in a guided group is the place to be.
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@Layne, how do you allow people without the skills to go it alone to start to experience that "wilderness and freedom" if not with a guide? It'd be a shame if the people interested in breaking out from the confines of the piste's first experience of the off the joys of off piste skiing is within a ridiculously constrained manner. Off-piste skiing is about a lot more than fresh snow and the experience in the OP seems to miss a lot of experiences I'd want to get out of off-piste skiing. Guiding off-piste skiing is the gateway drug to learning the skills and gaining the experience (both of which can come from a guide) to be able to get out there on your own.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Layne, I like the way you think. Mainly because I agree.
It is hard to see an ski areas like EK as wild. They are managed and managing how people access them and use them is an important part of that. Whether you are ever free to do whatever you want, anywhere in the world is something for discussion. There are always rules of safety and etiquette and stewardship. I found my way into off-piste skiing through this site and Fall Line magazine. I've never seen it as throwing off the yoke, simply a more exciting and challenging way of skiing in an area where there are less people. So I expect there to be rules and because of that I don't notice most of them. The chances of fresh powder happening during my limited time in the mountains is small, and when there is I can't get the first lift because I have to consider the rest of my group, including getting my daughter to ski school. So, I'm happy for there to be a few rules that allow me the chance of fresh powder and allow guides to "find" it for their clients.
Having said that, I'm up for subversion. If the rules become too onerous or protective of one side it's your duty to challenge them. Come the revolution ... 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
Why is it joyless just because it is constrained? Surely consideration for others is a basic tenet of civilised society and especially so in the mountains?
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Several points:
1) I don't think I'm inconsiderate. I'd rather other people, perhaps those who got there first, enjoyed the slope as much as possible rather than everyone feeling obliged to ski in a particular manner. Were that to be the case, I would, more likely than not, miss out.
2) I enjoy skiing for two reasons. First, the flow state: that state and the quiet mind that comes with it is the opposite of my daily life. Like many people, I have too much on and enjoy the focus that skiing brings. Artificial constraints break that up. Sometimes that's desirable, especially where safety is concerned, but it does rather screw with what makes the experience enjoyable.
3) A sense of freedom. Like @Clarky999 this is all about a sense of freedom. Increasingly, I find myself having to ski with a guide as I no longer spend enough time in the mountains to be both safe and autonomous. Other than the basic hygiene factors for guiding, like trying really hard to ensure everyone comes back alive and, preferably, with the same number of bits, the main thing for me is preserving that sense of freedom and possibility, even if it is a bit of an illusion.
None of that means I'm GS turning everything. I don't have the ability. Actually, I mainly ski the fall line at a moderate pace. But I relish the choice.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't think there's a lot of conflict in what's been said. I think guides (I'm not one) have a tricky job get the balance right between forcing people to do something safe versus letting them do what they want. Clients will/ should pick (or tip) their guides accordingly. There are many guides I will not use, typically because they stop too often, or some other minor stylistic thing which as I'm paying I choose not to pay for.
Instinctively I'm not guide-able or even lead-able. However I want to be able to ride in the back country, and riding roped up doesn't do it for me. My solution is to pay someone who knows that specific terrain to tell me where the cliffs I don't want to drop are. Then I can let it rip.
Occasionally, they may tell me that we're going to need to ride a slope a couple of times, or that someone else is going to need to do that, or that some Austrians want to do wiggly turns. If it was all like that, I'd switch guides.
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The Alps are "wild" in the sense that they can bite you, but not "wild" in the sense of wilderness. Mechanized lifts, GSM coverage, people, Alpine huts, people kicking stuff down on top of you, easy rescue availability....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| henzerani wrote: |
It is hard to see an ski areas like EK as wild. |
Yet without wanting to sound preachy it's dangerous to forget that the offpiste actually still is wild!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| philwig wrote: |
The Alps are "wild" in the sense that they can bite you, but not "wild" in the sense of wilderness. Mechanized lifts, GSM coverage, people, Alpine huts, people kicking stuff down on top of you, easy rescue availability.... |
Unless you're Jeremy Jones and making a film 
(No disrepect to Jeremy, he's awesome and I love his films, but the Innsbruck/Karwendel part of Further was a little over-egged)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| galpinos wrote: |
| It'd be a shame if the people interested in breaking out from the confines of the piste's first experience of the off the joys of off piste skiing is within a ridiculously constrained manner. |
All depends on your definition of "ridiculously constrained". If that means skiing a line fairly close to the guide's line I personally don't think that is ridiculous. If a novice off piste skier was chastised because they were unable to do so then I would find that ridiculous.
I suspect most peoples first experiences of off piste skiing are "dabbling off the side" and result in plenty of faceplants and frustration. I have certainly heard many expletives and seen much thrashing about from novice off pisters I've been with. The joys come with experience if you stick it out. I've known a few folks who found that initial leap to give them good reason never to step of the groomed again. All the skiers that I've known to use a guide (not all that many to be fair) I've heard none complain in the manner the OP has. That is not to say I don't understand fully where they are coming from and accept the point/criticism in the way it was portrayed.
| galpinos wrote: |
| Off-piste skiing is about a lot more than fresh snow and the experience in the OP seems to miss a lot of experiences I'd want to get out of off-piste skiing. Guiding off-piste skiing is the gateway drug to learning the skills and gaining the experience (both of which can come from a guide) to be able to get out there on your own. |
No argument from me on that one. Though I'd argue that the guides have many clients who come precisely because they do not want to do it on their own. And for whom fresh snow is whilst not the be-all and end-all a large part of the experience.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| 1) I don't think I'm inconsiderate. I'd rather other people, perhaps those who got there first, enjoyed the slope as much as possible rather than everyone feeling obliged to ski in a particular manner. Were that to be the case, I would, more likely than not, miss out. |
Only one person can be first.
It's like a buffet isn't it. Sorry mate, I love sausage rolls, I'm going to eat them all, you should have got here earlier.
Enjoy the buffet, but don't feel then need to take from every tray 
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| 2) I enjoy skiing for two reasons. First, the flow state: that state and the quiet mind that comes with it is the opposite of my daily life. Like many people, I have too much on and enjoy the focus that skiing brings. Artificial constraints break that up. Sometimes that's desirable, especially where safety is concerned, but it does rather screw with what makes the experience enjoyable. |
Most of use are wage slaves so understand where you are coming from but you shouldn't unwind to the detriment of everybody else. Think of the other wage slaves
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| 3) A sense of freedom. Like @Clarky999 this is all about a sense of freedom. Increasingly, I find myself having to ski with a guide as I no longer spend enough time in the mountains to be both safe and autonomous. Other than the basic hygiene factors for guiding, like trying really hard to ensure everyone comes back alive and, preferably, with the same number of bits, the main thing for me is preserving that sense of freedom and possibility, even if it is a bit of an illusion. |
But I am guessing/assuming your guides give you that? Do they never impose artificial constraints?
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I am quite happy to ski tight lines wherever possible, in fact I find it a bit of fun as a group to make close tracks as I enjoy the challenge and after all I am still skiing fresh powder. I also think off piste skiing is so much more popular these days even compared to just ten years ago, with the result that off piste terrain gets skied out very quickly, therefore I have no problem sharing the terrain and appreciate it where the others have left room for me.
Coming back to the OP I have often found that those that want to ski fast off piste, are not as good as they like to think, with the result that they have trouble stopping. I have seen so many collisions with people running into other group members. I don't recall any of those collisions having caused a serious injury but there were times when serious injury could easily have happened. Guides will therefore discourage individuals from skiing fast unless they are very sure of the capabilities of the individuals concerned.
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That's one of the reasons I much prefer to ski unguided, even though it generally means I have to be more cautious and conservative with terrain, as it feels more adventurous and I actively enjoy the feeling that 'I'm taking my life in my hands' (though I'm hardly doing anything particularly extreme!). I love feeling competent in that sort of setting. I guess it's a caveman thing.
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I feel exactly the same. In general I get more satisfaction doing something easier where I am taking responsibility than doing something hard under supervision. That was true when I climbed regularly, has been true skiing and is becoming the case as I get into sailing. That said, when you work full time away from the mountains and have family responsibilities sometimes it is just more responsible and more efficient to get some professional help.
"I love feeling competent in that sort of setting" is almost exactly the way I describe it to people - there is a deep satisfaction in learning skills, gaining experience then deploying both to keep you and your group safe in a potentially hazardous environment.
Going with a guide is a great way of building some of the skills and experience that will allow you to carefully increase the adventure you are willing to take on independently.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Layne,
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Though I'd argue that the guides have many clients who come precisely because they do not want to do it on their own. And for whom fresh snow is whilst not the be-all and end-all a large part of the experience.
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That's probably true. I come form a climbing background and the self reliance/route finding/snow assessment is all part of the day for me and having good snow, whilst great, is not essential. We all get different things out of it I guess?
I've only skied with a guide once and the experience was nothing as described by the OP so there is hope!
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I guess most of us, most of the time we don't even think about it. We don't trash the slopes, we find a line, we ski down, we leave something for the next guy. What else is there.
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And I agree with that too - that's how I ski without a guide.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
The Alps are "wild" in the sense that they can bite you, but not "wild" in the sense of wilderness. Mechanized lifts, GSM coverage, people, Alpine huts, people kicking stuff down on top of you, easy rescue availability....
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mobile phones have made a difference of course - until you lose signal that is. Back in the early 1990s (pre mobile) my climbing partner and I had a minor epic at about 3800m. We were the only people on the mountain. Argentiere was less than 5 miles away as the crow flies, a hut was 2 miles away I guess, but we had no way of calling for any help. I can tell you it felt VERY wild at that point. We had a battle for about 6 hours to get to the hut just before dark with some distinctly iffy moments.
I don't know the EK so well but even in 3V which I would say is a bit tamer, a short boot pack and a ski can drop you into a little valley where you won't see a ski lift, may well not see another skier and may not have phone reception. You'd be very unwise to bank on the mountain rescue being with you quick enough to fix your problem if you cock something up.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fortunately I've never been subjected to powder farming, but it is really a question that should be asked, and answered, before you book your guided trip.
My pet peeve is those who straight line or traverse a fresh entirely ski-able/board-able slope diagonally, thrashing it, to get to the next section.
I agree on the massive increase in the last 10 years. 10 years ago I could lap side country powder, time after time. Now if anyone sees tracks from the piste or lift, the slope of tracked in minutes.
The other ones is followers, who hang back maybe 100m, stop when you stop, and follow your tracks. More than once we have stopped, and waited having something to eat/drink, to see what they will do. It is interesting to see how long they will wait 
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I agree on the massive increase in the last 10 years. 10 years ago I could lap side country powder, time after time. Now if anyone sees tracks from the piste or lift, the slope of tracked in minutes.
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It's these new fangled fat skis dontchaknow. Back in the good old days you actually needed to put the effort into learning how to ski properly before you could handle the off piste. Then snowboards opened up the mountain to people of limited skill and the skiers got jealous so the ski industry fixed it for them. Shouldn't be allowed!
(only joking! on the value judgments that is, it is factually correct on the impact of technology)
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You know it makes sense.
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For me I think you should be given some direction with a group. i.e stay within 10 metres of the person before youre tracks. But literally skiing within a metre of their tracks with identical turns is not my idea of a good time especially after a 90 minute skin. I would have actually preferred to have skied in the tracked stuff but put my own turns in to be honest and gone at my own pace but maybe thats just me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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but you shouldn't unwind to the detriment of everybody else
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I don't think anyone's suggesting that. Merely, that people are drawing the line between the needs of the individual and the collective in different places. I'm suggesting that it is possible to draw the line in such a way that the activity loses a chunk of its purpose.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I would never complain about Spooning fresh powder. Powder is powder, feels dreamy and the game of keeping tight ain't that bad. I don't think you should be reprimanded for it every time, but it is fairly common courtesy. If even in your group u had a faster skier slashing all across the slope he would be messing it up for everyone else or pushing u further out the edges and possibly into a more dangerous spot.
If u hike for your turns and no one else is out there slash away, but side country from a resort where there are dozens of groups going down the safer routes and spooning is how u manage the process.
My one help experience we spooned on open bowls but slashed all we wanted in the trees. Our spooning wasn't perfect, butte tried. No one was complaining.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I took this photo today (17 Dec) 3 weeks after the last snow in the EK. To get to the top of the slope is an hours skin give or take. Because of the discipline and mountain etiquette shown by the backcountry community (particularly to the right of shot) there was still freshtracks for us on the way down:
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FAQ
