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off piste guide

 Poster: A snowHead
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This might sound like a daft question. I have done a fair bit of lift accessed off piste. Last year I wanted to be experience some proper off piste so went with a group and guide. This was in the Espace Killy area. We were taken to some fantastic runs etc however the guide went first and made his tracks and everyone then essentially had to ski completely parallel to the tracks. For me this ruined it a bit as you just came down everything pretty slowly. Again I completely understand if im being naive and stupid but is this how all off piste guides/ groups work? i understand you have to stay near peoples tracks but i thought you would be allowed to decide when you put turns in etc. It left me quite underwhelmed as I would like to carry and fair bit more speed down. Is the only way to actually make your own tracks to go with friends rather than a ski company?
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I haven't actually skied that much with guides, but never had that sort of experience. How controlling/open the guide is often depends on how well they know you and the group, and your ability/how much they trust you.

OTOH he could just have been powder farming (trying to save fresh tracks for later guests) which is really not cool IMO.


Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 22-11-16 22:00; edited 1 time in total
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@mk28, when was this? I.e. What time of year?

What @clarky999 says is on the money and I cannot at all see a "normal" guide farming.

Almost certainly to do with safety.
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As @clarky999, says very strange and I agree he might have been trying to save the stashes for later - but that doesn't explain why you had to come down slowly.

Only time a guide has ever said stay close to my tracks is when skiing on a glacier and I do not mind in the slightest having to do that!

A good decade ago we were doing a hut to hut and had arrived at the old Herman Goring hut which was renamed after a certain conflict and in the morning whilst skinning up we saw this group come down an untracked face putting in the neatest set of tracks* that meant they could have only been German or Swiss and had calculated their spacing at the top with a slide rule.

Think we had three guides in our group and by the time we'd finished on that face, we'd trashed it - after that trip I regsitered the domain mountainvandals.com Toofy Grin

*and for the life of me, brains gone, what's the German / Swiss term for those tracks, type of skiing - weddle , weidelle ???


Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Tue 22-11-16 18:31; edited 1 time in total
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I skied with a group from esf whilst at Club med this year and to be honest once Ben the guide got to know us all over the first couple of days he knew who could go where and split us up sometimes with the more able to go on own and he took the less able down easier routes but only after he assessed everything we would then meet up at certain points,it worked really well and he did get us first tracks most of the day which is brilliant and also took us to stuff that i wouldnt of skied on my own due to lack of local knowledge. I would say try again and get recommendations from other snowheads.
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Quote:

Only time a guide has ever said stay close to my tracks is when skiing on a glacier and I do not mind in the slightest having to do that!


That's been my experience - it's only been where there are hazards that he is managing the group around. Generally they want you stop above them (in case they have stopped above a hazard). If you want to ski bigger faster turns than the guide is making then its often best to wait at the back and leave a bit of a gap then catch the group up (rather than overtake people who set off just before you).
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Yeah, I had this in the EK as well. Not massive fun and not safety related either. I got the impression they used it as a combination of powder conservation and group management. Coincidentally, I had my only serious accident towards the end of the day and wound up with a torn calf. Not great all round.
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mk28 wrote:
This might sound like a daft question. I have done a fair bit of lift accessed off piste. Last year I wanted to be experience some proper off piste so went with a group and guide. This was in the Espace Killy area. We were taken to some fantastic runs etc however the guide went first and made his tracks and everyone then essentially had to ski completely parallel to the tracks. For me this ruined it a bit as you just came down everything pretty slowly. Again I completely understand if im being naive and stupid but is this how all off piste guides/ groups work? i understand you have to stay near peoples tracks but i thought you would be allowed to decide when you put turns in etc. It left me quite underwhelmed as I would like to carry and fair bit more speed down. Is the only way to actually make your own tracks to go with friends rather than a ski company?


yes a lot of guides do it that way - it is to do with spatial variability - the theory, and I'm not saying I agree with it, is that if you ski close to the guides tracks you are limiting the risk of triggering an avalanche. They also snow farm a lot in the EK.

Nothing stopped you skiing to his tracks a bit quicker Happy

If you want to just ski your own lines, don't bother with a guide.

Quote:
I skied with a group from esf whilst at Club med this year and to be honest once Ben the guide got to know us all over the first couple of days he knew who could go where and split us up sometimes with the more able to go on own


He better pray there is never an accident involving the courts because he'll no longer be guiding if that's how he rolls.
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I would imagine he prayed alot he rolled like a lunatic to be fair all he did was drink Genepi and any other alcoholic drink we had going at the time such a laugh.
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@mk28, Sounds like a definite case of powder farming, unless there were serious terrain limitations. Even when heli-skiing the guide would just set some basic limitations, the main one being always stop above me, the others were usually left/right terrain limits. Apart from that it was, "see you at the bottom of this pitch".

I generally ski with a guide by myself, so there are no restrictions in terms of speed, terrain, delays, choices etc. I know its selfish, but if I have a bad day, I want it to be down to me rather than someone else.
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Actually some Euros (not typically Brits) will ski directly behind the guide, and certainly never stray from their track. I think it's a cultural thing: it seems rude to me, but they don't mean it that way. It can't be a lot of fun. I would just hang back a bit and then pick your line. It's actually a novice mistake to go early, possibly made because they don't realize that there's plenty of powder for all. If you're a little way back you can easily avoid flats, or worst case you can re-join the other peoples' tracks to save you having to pole.

Next time just tell them you want a bit more space, or just take it. As above, if there's any danger the guide should put in the closest track to it, and tell you about it. Assuming there is no specific hazard, then just have at it. The secret is to know on which side of your line the guide is, so if you lose sight of their track completely, you know which way to go at that point. The second secret is not to lose too much height in flat terrain when you're out of sight of the guide's line... you need to be sure you can get back onto that line.

tl;dr -> either you had a lazy guide, or he thought you were Austrian/ Swiss German wink
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Bit surprised by the replies in this thread but maybe this is down to my ignorance.

I thought that it was frowned upon to slash the slope to pieces and that "powder farming" as it's been described was the gentlemanly thing to do. Basically to take only the next line and keep the rest of the slope virgin for the next guy. Although it depends to some extent on the slope and location.

I've skied with guides in EK, Cham and Switzerland, a few days each. I don't remember it being particularly slow or restrictive. A lot of the time I don't remember much being said about keeping the lines uniform. It's just in general what you did - a lot of the time.

In addition, in regard of the speed. I've got a feeling this maybe new school versus old school. I see guys virtually straight lining slopes and I just don't think it's as much fun as carving down in 3rd gear with revs purring rather than screaming. But mebbe I'm just old.
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Heliskiers all ski at the same time, that way they have the maximum chance of triggering any slabs and all getting buried in the avalanche leaving no survivors. Unless followed closely by the helipilot, as in this example.

The EK crew keep their turns tight, I mean real tight, if you can get another track in between you're off the group. The powder in VdI is rationed like it is never gonna snow again all season, which, it probably won't.



Oh yeah, in EK you've got to ski with your legs locked together like you are on a monoski, they even farm the snow between their skis.
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@davidof, are you taking the Michael Twisted Evil Toofy Grin Laughing
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The last picture is exactly what it was like. It was mid Feb and was the best conditions ive known in Val for years. There was loads of snow and avalanche warnings were low 2 I think. The guide spoke a lot about etiquette which is obviously preserving it for people after us. When people would miss a turn he would make a point of bringing it up. There was no way you could make your own turns. I felt like I was on a driving test rather than skiing off piste. It was not as enjoyable as i was hoping for. The turns are tight enough where you cant really pick any pace up.
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I was always impressed by the photos like the tracks shown in the EK image, controlled, leaving plenty for everyone else, likely to be safer as not all skiing at once etc. Usually posted on a daily website update wink I was less impressed by random tracks all over a slope making it hard work for anyone to follow in clean snow. Am I the exception here?? Serious question BTW.
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mk28 wrote:
The last picture is exactly what it was like. It was mid Feb and was the best conditions ive known in Val for years. There was loads of snow and avalanche warnings were low 2 I think. The guide spoke a lot about etiquette which is obviously preserving it for people after us. When people would miss a turn he would make a point of bringing it up. There was no way you could make your own turns. I felt like I was on a driving test rather than skiing off piste. It was not as enjoyable as i was hoping for. The turns are tight enough where you cant really pick any pace up.


Ok, they are snow farming their "secret" stashes, preserving the slope for other groups.

I understand your frustration.
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@endoman,

That used to be my attitude but I think in part it dates from skinny ski days. On 2m and 60mm waist cutting across people's tracks really detracted from your rhythm and the sensations of skiing powder - and rhythm was really important as you needed to keep that tempo that allowed the skis to build a base at the end of turn to provide the platform for bouncing you into the next one. On modern skis it is just much less of an issue - you can blast across tracks with impunity and makes all sorts of turn shapes at all kinds of speeds without worrying about being so rhythmic.
Because I'm still a bit old school I do still quite like putting in nested wiggles or powder 8s at times but I also like ripping across bowls too and I don't feel aggrieved when I see someone making big slashing turns across a slope because I know it won't spoil my fun if I have to cross his line a few times to link up the patches that are unskied.
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> I know it won't spoil my fun if I have to cross his line a few times to link up the patches that are unskied.

It will the next day when the tracks refreeze, as they tend to do, even if the powder remains skiable. I suspect that is why they still farm.
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Understood. Yep my first guided skiing was on 205 GS skis. New skis being delivered today and 3 days booked with Steve Angus in Jan.
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Quote:

It will the next day when the tracks refreeze, as they tend to do, even if the powder remains skiable. I suspect that is why they still farm.


sure it will be a bit less enjoyable but not ruin the fun

The one thing that does sadden me a bit is people thoroughly trashing spring snow once it has gone slushy in the afternoon because you can still get down it on fat skis. That does really wreck the transformation cycle back to buttery spring snow again. It didn't use to be a problem because afternoon offpiste slush used to be just about unskiable on skinny skis.
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mk28 wrote:
The last picture is exactly what it was like. It was mid Feb and was the best conditions ive known in Val for years. There was loads of snow and avalanche warnings were low 2 I think. The guide spoke a lot about etiquette which is obviously preserving it for people after us. When people would miss a turn he would make a point of bringing it up. There was no way you could make your own turns. I felt like I was on a driving test rather than skiing off piste. It was not as enjoyable as i was hoping for. The turns are tight enough where you cant really pick any pace up.


Likewise, I understand your frustration a little bit. On the other hand let's say there a dozen guided groups out plus other off piste skiers. If the first group comes along and basically cuts half the slope and the second does the other half, then the next group will arrive at the top with no virgin snow to ride. It's not a nightmare, they will still have fun but they won't be cutting fresh tracks anymore. And the more it works like that the faster the whole slope will be skied out. I guess for them ski guiding companies their remit is to have people cut fresh lines as much as possible so they would be more anal about it than most. But I tell my kids to cut next to mine just the same because a) they don't need to track out any more than necessary and b) it's helps to discipline them. Obv. you are not a child and the guide isn't your dad.

As others have said you may be want to get recommendations on guides going forward. Another option is to ski more mellow places than EK which is an high profile off piste area. I certainly wouldn't let it put you off too much.

Out of interest which guiding company and guide was it?
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endoman wrote:
I was always impressed by the photos like the tracks shown in the EK image, controlled, leaving plenty for everyone else, likely to be safer as not all skiing at once etc. Usually posted on a daily website update wink I was less impressed by random tracks all over a slope making it hard work for anyone to follow in clean snow. Am I the exception here?? Serious question BTW.


Honestly, my rule is whoever gets there first gets to ski it in the way they enjoy most (as long as it's not endangering anyone), whether that's little wiggles or big GS turns. If you want fresh tracks you gotta get there early, and if you're too late/unlucky with the snow then hopefully you get lucky the next time.

I understand why (some guides) want to farm snow so their next clients still have a good time and don't feel ripped off, but I honestly don't think that's something that should concern the first - also fully paying - group.

Though I will admit to getting frustrated when you see people getting in a bit over their head and sideslipping nice powder lines (often in the trees) and genuinely trashing the snow, but it's still their right to go play how they want.
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@clarky999, you are nice guy from I can make out. Considerate and helpful. Which makes me all the more surprised at your stance here. I have the right to fart in the cable car, or to ski at high speed close to beginners or basically look after a No 1 and not give a monkeys about anyone else. Sure, I got up early, I got to the top of the slope up early but does that mean I shouldn't have some consideration for others than didn't or couldn't? And anyway surely you are going to be skiing slopes all day, hence going where you and others have gone.

I think the key here though maybe the key part of the statement is "ski it in the way they enjoy most". Essentially I think as an individual that maybe works. I think if you are somewhere remote where the numbers coming though are limited that maybe works. It gets a bit more tricky somewhere like Val D'Isere on a great powder day where there are going to be a large number of skiers in the area.

Certainly when I was guided in Val D it was a bit like this whereas when I did some ski touring for example it wasn't talked about at all. So I think there is a little horses for courses involved here.
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@clarky999, I pretty much agree... provided people aren't wrecking a slope for the sake of it.

I can't imagine a pair of unguided skiers get a good reception if they were to stray onto one of these farmed slopes Shocked
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Feckin hell, you should see what happens in La Grave - especially if the guide is Swedish and his group are all mad (fecking good) Skandi skiers Toofy Grin

I think this thread is more about the location of where you might be skiing with a guide as opposed to just skiing with a guide, and whether it's a group not really known to the guide and to each other.

In the last couple of years the feckin UCPCA "guides" in Serre have started taking their groups in the trees and I've come across members of the group in various sorts of difficulty in the forest whilst the "group leader" for they are not guides, is waiting way too far below if there was a problem.

One thing on an open slope where visibility of clients is not an issue but totally different in a forest where the trees have a tendency to sort skiers out.
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@Layne, haha thanks! But maybe I expressed it poorly if that's how it came across. FWIW I think everyone has a responsibility to help others and look after each other where safely possible - whether just someone who's fallen over, or lost a ski, or someone who's injured/caught in an avalanche etc - drop what you're doing and go help.

I guess I just think that if I've made the effort to get up for first lift and skied straight to my objective bypassing other powder stashes along the way, I shouldn't have to hold back and have less fun purely so other people who didn't make the effort, or who skied other slopes first, still get pristine snow later on (assuming sun and wind hasn't done any damage). Though if you're in a group and all drop in 10/15/20m along from each other deliberately track as much as possible that would be a dick move. Expecting others to ski within a small corridor - 2m? 5m? - is taking enjoyment from them just as much as tracking a slope, so isn't it equally selfish?

That's NOT to say I think you shouldn't give a monkey's about other people. Dropping in on others, skiing above them, not stopping to help someone who's fallen etc, is a total NO GO in my book. Also seems like you're speaking about on piste stuff too, given high speed skiing close to beginners? Again, not cool.

From the other side, I really don't expect people to change their skiing and hold back for my benefit either - if I have to work on a powder day I know full well I'll have to go touring if I want fresh tracks the next day!

Would you say the first people on a freshly groomed piste should also stay within a 2m corridor at the side to keep it fresh for as long as possible?

---------

Edit: Saying that, on the good days I generally deliberately go to small quiet resorts as I don't like the way lots of people ski on bluebird powder days - free to ski your line how you want doesn't mean a free for all where you can just drop in above people and ski where you want without any regard for safety or appropriate equipment.


Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 23-11-16 14:02; edited 3 times in total
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I have the right to fart in the cable car, or to ski at high speed close to beginners or basically look after a No 1 and not give a monkeys about anyone else.


Not sure those analogies really work do they? Certainly skiing fast and close to beginners is a totally different thing than not maximising the fresh powder for those who may follow.
The whole "freeride" concept is about the freedom to ski the terrain as the mood takes you and according to your own style. A lot of modern powder skiing is about drift and slash, in big arcs and at speed. That is what the width and rocker is really designed for. You can't blame people for using the new kit as it was intended can you? If you regiment yourself to ski a tight line of powder wiggles all the time its hardly free is it? As it happens I quite like skiing powder wiggles and when I ski them I tend to be as efficient with my use of powder as I can be. There is a certain anal satisfaction to it apart from any public-spiritedness
Embarassed But if I want to my own pale imitation of some pro slashing up an Alaskan face I'm not going to apologise for my midlife crisis Very Happy
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oh and I'm not going to get annoyed by others that do it either.
Of course the answer to anyone who is upset about the snow getting cut up quickly is to head for the trees - they ward off a lot of the traffic and certainly stop the big turns Very Happy
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@clarky999, yes and no..........

If I stopped to help every person I came across who had lost a ski, can't handle the conditions, or was lost or any other problem then I'd miss so much skiing helping people, obviously excluding more serious predicaments!

As I ski near them out of the corner of my eye I assess their situation, but like I have done coming across UCPCA groups in the trees all over the place I ski down to the "leader" and say do you know you've got someone up there who has lost a ski, can't ski the snow, inferring maybe it was a wrong call to take said group down there in the first place!

And as we all know, "NO FRIENDS ON A POWDER DAY" Toofy Grin
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@clarky999, @jedster, @Weathercam, all cool. I am a bit of an old hippy when it comes to these things.

Little Angel Laughing Madeye-Smiley
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clarky999 wrote:
I guess I just think that if I've made the effort to get up for first lift and skied straight to my objective bypassing other powder stashes along the way, I shouldn't have to hold back and have less fun purely so other people who didn't make the effort


I'd never really given it a second thought but I don't tend to do a lot of slope cuts as I don't want to have the whole slope go on me and tend to just ski straight down. I try to avoid side slipping and making steps on narrow slopes as it ruins the skiing for people who can ski those conditions better than me. We probably have a similar ethos although I'd imagine you have a more modern skiing style than me Happy.

I don't like EK turns very much myself but if I was skiing one of the trade slopes I would probably stay reasonably in line with the existing tracks.

Quote:

That's NOT to say I think you shouldn't give a monkey's about other people. Dropping in on others, skiing above them, not stopping to help someone who's fallen etc, is a total NO GO in my book. Also seems like you're speaking about on piste stuff too, given high speed skiing close to beginners? Again, not cool.


I don't stop for lost skis in powder - I've seen people dig out most of the mountainside looking for a lost ski. I did once go up with a metal detector a few days later with someone who had lost a ski - we never found it, which surprised us.
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Going off tangent a little.........and I do drag this one out every couple of years, so apologies.

A while ago I had a little incident going off a cliff, that some on here may recall.

I lost a ski in the process in very deep powder and a long way from anywhere, we spent a fair amount of time searching for it but I recognized the signs of shock etc setting in as I had come very close to killing myself and I was quite beaten up!

My mate skied on one ski whilst I just about managed to ski down to the walk out zone.

Following summer a guide mate and a good friend from the UK were climbing together and on one wet non climbing day they though let's go and see if we can find his ski.

And mission accomplished, well it was a Scott Mission Toofy Grin

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clarky999 wrote:


I guess I just think that if I've made the effort to get up for first lift and skied straight to my objective bypassing other powder stashes along the way, I shouldn't have to hold back and have less fun purely so other people who didn't make the effort, or who skied other slopes first, still get pristine snow later on (assuming sun and wind hasn't done any damage). Though if you're in a group and all drop in 10/15/20m along from each other deliberately track as much as possible that would be a dick move. Expecting others to ski within a small corridor - 2m? 5m? - is taking enjoyment from them just as much as tracking a slope, so isn't it equally selfish? .


This - although I've seen excitable pricks elbow past people on a traverse so they can get to their line first. It's also dickish to drop in lower when you can see someone going for a higher traverse but sometimes unavoidable i.e. you have no idea what line they are intending to ski and you're out of options without hiking higher. Anyone who deliberately trashes a whole slope as opposed to keeping it to GS ish size turns is a bit of a dick too IMV but powder farming is Lamey McLameface.
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jedster wrote:


The one thing that does sadden me a bit is people thoroughly trashing spring snow once it has gone slushy in the afternoon because you can still get down it on fat skis. That does really wreck the transformation cycle back to buttery spring snow again. It didn't use to be a problem because afternoon offpiste slush used to be just about unskiable on skinny skis.


But if it's still fun and you can ski it - why not? Smoov corn on the turn is lovely but it's not like with modern equipment you can't have fun all day long most days into spring if you can play aspect and altitude well. Yeah next morning you definitely regret that 2 foot trench of coral reef but it's not as though you want to be skiing that same slope first thing anyway.
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powder farming is Lamey McLameface.


Yeah. I guess I care more now about the quality of the days I have. I will get four or five days off piste next year. If I'm really lucky there'll be some fresh snow on one of those. Spending that time worrying about whether my tracks are sufficiently close to previous skier's so that the guide doesn't start with the snarky comments is a pretty dismal prospect.
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But if it's still fun and you can ski it - why not? Smoov corn on the turn is lovely but it's not like with modern equipment you can't have fun all day long most days into spring if you can play aspect and altitude well. Yeah next morning you definitely regret that 2 foot trench of coral reef but it's not as though you want to be skiing that same slope first thing anyway.


all true - my point is that those 2 foot trenches never recover whereas the few inches that you make before it become slush just disappears in the freeze thaw. So it's a bit of a shame - I don't want to overstress it, in the end snow is ephemeral anyway!
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@davidof, isn't the helicopter there to trigger the avalanche, rather than pick up survivors? I've always felt that they don't really care about loosing a few because no one can afford to heliski more than once.
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I've always felt that they don't really care about loosing a few because no one can afford to heliski more than once.


Au contraire! I suspect the industry is heavily reliant on small number of people who are rich enough to go every season.
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 Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I skied with Topski in Val last year and most of the time there was no issue. There were two of us who were both new to guiding so we were probably treating the guide like an instructor and mimicking his moves. We toured out to find powder on the last day and when we did he asked us to make nice lines next to each other but we were all (4 of us by then) fairly wide apart and didn't get commented on. In fact the whole thing seemed very laid back.

On the ethics of the whole thing I guess I tend towards consideration, and perhaps because EK is such a big tourist resort, it is probably fair that we share a bit. I would have been disappointed, if after an hour and a half I had found no powder. But on the other hand I would not have enjoyed the pressure of trying to keep too tight and that would have reduced the fun I had.

I fart in cable cars, then look around in disgust. Unless my daughter is with me because she rats me out.
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