BASI Chairman Election, Place your bets !

A snowHead

not sure I'd need test technique to spend 90% of my time teaching snow plough on an indoor slope though.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

With a view to getting my vote in last night I had a further look at the willingness to stand statements. I also read the 'BASI Chairman Job Description'. I don't know any of the chair elect candidates, nor the legal ones for that matter, which was why I was keen to seek the opinion of others that are more informed. I feel BASI has reached a crucial point. For the association to move forward its members need to step up and have their voices (votes) heard. I do always vote and feel this one is of particular importance. With so many worthy candidates up for chair I am struggling to make a choice. I actually wish some of them had stood down.
After reading the statements my gut vote is for Bob and the post made by Sara and comments from others back it up. I didn't stop there though (I'm a bit sad like that), I wanted to find out more about the others so I started reading the various posts regarding Simon's battle and the information BASI have released on the subject. I am sure you will appreciate this took a bit of time and I didn’t get to look at the others. So, my vote is still work in progress. What I don't understand - I did lose the will a bit so forgive me if someone has already commented on this - is, why didn't Simon exercise his Grandfather Rights? I believe he was given more than one opportunity to do so. Am I being daft in thinking if he had simply dotted the i's and crossed the ’t’s at the appropriate time he wouldn't be in this predicament? Did he feel he was above the law? The job description of Chairman states they are responsible for BASI’s governance, I am not sure Simon fits this bill. Also, when I read Simon's statement I feel a chip on his shoulder comes over. I also see the word 'ski' a lot but nothing else. I don’t believe the 'S' in BASI stands for ‘ski’. I'm left wondering what will he do for non Alpine licence holders.
Umm, I haven’t voted yet. Work in progress for me. I’ll keep looking to see how others feel.

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@Haggis_Trap, are you one of those folk who see the Eurotest as the gateway to riches untold? The French (full quals) instructors in many resorts don't earn €50 an hour. The ski schools here charge less than that and have to cover all their overheads.

After all it is free

@Haggis_Trap, the French instructors I know work all summer (one a motorbike instructor, one a builder, one a farmer). They make a pretty modest living, as far as I can tell. There are so many fully qualified instructors that they have little bargaining power. But they seem to have organized themselves so that instructors get the lions share of what the customers pay whereas in the US, and to a lesser extent in Austria I think, ski school "owners" cream off a tidy sum.

The nature of snow sports instruction, like watersports instruction, seems to be that you do it more for love than money. The RYA does a pretty good job on the water sports side of things but there aren't many people able to support a family comfortably from teaching sailing, windsurfing, etc.

BASI does seem, from the outside, to be a bit of a shambles but I fail to see what they could do to enable British instructors with low level qualifications to earn enough money solely from instructing.

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^ Agree.

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I'm a little confused about the 'recognition' of L1/L2 globally.
L3 is now not recognised in 3 major European alpine countries (France, Austria, Italy)
The BASI site is a bit sketchy too.
It seems that in most countries you must go through a 'recognition' process.
The Canadian page states that you must have the Canadian certs and doesn't even mention that L2 is recognised.
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-canada.aspx

And as for L1... don't get me started Laughing

snow reports

^ nope : BASI L2 can be used in every ski nation in the world (even France if you pass Test Technique like a local).

France, Austria, Italy have left ISIA - but they still recognise BASI qualifications.

You know it makes sense.

@Haggis_Trap, from BASI site.

"The governing bodies for the different disciplines of Canadian snowsports instructors are CSIA (Canadian Ski Instructors' Alliance), CASI (Canadian Association of Snowboard Instructors) and CANSI (Canadian Association of Nordic Ski Instructors). To qualify for a working visa, ski or snowboard instructors need to hold a minimum of CSIA or CASI Level 2, equivalent to BASI's Level 2 Instructor (formerly Grade 3). "

This states that to get a working visa instructors 'need' to hold CSIA or CASI 2 which is equivalent to BASI 2. It doesn't state that the BASI 2 is recognised.

In Austria (focussing on the Tirol - like the BASI site does).
If you hold an L2 then you must file through a recognition process.
This includes additional
"*Written Tests in Ski Technic,
Ski school methods, Ski school
organisation to be passed in
German language"

and

"*In addition there is a skiing test with three sections.
On passing these tests a Zeugnis certificate is issued. This is in effect the licence. On applying to work in a Tirol Ski School they will require a copy of this
licence. After starting to work with a Tirol ski school they will apply to Snowsport Tirol for an Ausweis."

This is basically all of the Anwaerter tests minus the practical teaching.
So L2 is not automatically recognised.

The French... (do we need to go there) but the site just contradicts itself.

Switzerland and the USA don't count.

IMO it is so woolly and unclear.
The L1 is a total waste of time and is not equivalent to anything else.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@flangesax, If I understand things (and I may not) the issue is something like this, BASI originally set up an agreement with the French concerning grandfather rights under which MOU's should have been issued to all who qualified, several year later BASI seem to have added extra qualification requirements to issue a second round of MOU's BASI then appear to have retroactively cancelled the original MOU's for those people who had not taken the additional courses, so far as I can see this is something that BASI did independently of the French and to some this appears to have been done in a somewhat devious way in order to reduce the number of MOU's, at the very least there appears to have been poor performance by current senior BASI members, at worst it was a deliberate attempt to get certain BASI members into trouble, as for the removal of the MOU stamp from SB without notifying him but at the same time informing the French authorities that they had done so........
It all seems very much against working for the members interests and far more of dealing shadily with a business rival, likewise as has been already proven their manner of trying to expel SB from BASI was completely illegal, all very poor performance from those in charge and dare I say it their actions have brought BASI into the public spotlight for all the wrong reasons, realistically they should be expelled from BASI for bringing it into disrepute, the very charge that they issued against SB

A snowHead

Wow, Jim Lister said in his manifesto on FB "Complete the system to become true professionals"

I like Jim and thought he would be a strong candidate but he just alienated 95% of the members who he considers aren't true professionals. He subsequently retracted the statement but if you are a L1 2 or 3 member can you vote for him now?

A snowHead

@Flagesax - lots of British instructors work in Canada, Austria with the humble BASI L2.
They also work in USA, CH, Norway, Japan, NZ, Scotland, Argentina, Italy and even France (with TT).

For foreign instructors to work for a ski school in Austria, they must hold a recognised qualification at least equivalent to the Austrian Anwarter qualification - BASI Level 2 Instructor at least.
http://www.basi.org.uk/content/employment-austria.aspx

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Haggis_Trap, do you actually read anything I write?
I've put that link up and I've commented about it (I also hold an Anwaerter so do understand the Austrian system).
USA doesn't count, you don't need any qualifications along with Switzerland.

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^ as far as I am aware BASI L2 can, and do, work in Austria ?
though you are likely correct they need to a 1 or 2 day conversion course ?
(as presumably do holders of nations L2 qualifications such as CASI2 or NZSKIA2 ?)
here is how to apply for equivalence in the Tirol.

http://www.basi.org.uk/docs/Step%20by%20step%20procedure%20for%20recognition%20of%20BASI%20qualification%20in%20the%20Tirol3.pdf

I am no expert on Austria - but I think it is fair to say the BASI L2 is generally very well regarded globally ?
Certainly as at least equal to L2's from other nations (NZ / Canada / USA etc)

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@Haggis_Trap, why do you keep putting links up that I've already put up or commented about?
L2's do work in Austria but it is not automatically recognised really... you have to do a shortened version of the Anwaerter in the Tirol to make it count.
So does doing a 'conversion course' mean that the initial BASI L2 is actually recognised or dos it mean that you have some sort of skiing qualification but please do our tests an conversion otherwise you can't teach?

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I think i read on here someone done it from L2 to Anwaerter, 1 day course, some paperwork and € and they got their Anwaerter certificate , i guess then they are dual qualified and can use whichever cert wherever is best.

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After all it is free

I was thinking this morning about the two Austrian instructors I've skied with. One seemed at the time positively ancient (probably early 60s, younger than I am now) and one in his forties. Definitely had wife and kids because he talked about them (in impeccable English). The frequent suggestion on SHs that France is the only country you can be a "career" instructor just doesn't ring true to me though I dare say those Austrian instructors, like French ones, earned their money in other ways in summer.

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I'm acquainted with some of the candidates. Bob clearly has a wide range of experience and with the industry in his heart. I have some sympathy with Simon, but voting for him I fear will plunge the organisation in to a schism, which we may not ever recover from. Coral is a sensible caring, intelligent, professional person with a refreshing approach with the right experience, all of which we can benefit from. IMHO BASI will benefit if everyone gets behind Coral and shoves the old guard and the vested interests out of the way. At the end of the day Coral is a very decent person with impeccable integrity and she is nice with it. That's where my vote is going.

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Glad to see we are finding out more about the various candidates.

With the greatest respect, it is indeed a bit of an X Factor as all members (at least I hope they do) want the best man/woman for the job. It's quite difficult to make a decision when you don't know the candidates.

When I first looked at Coral’s statement she was a contender for me too. But then I looked at her CV and felt with four current positions how can she possibly fit a new role - let’s face it a particularly demanding new role, in. I also noticed she hasn’t actually stuck with anything for very long, and that put me off. If you are reading this Coral please don’t take it personally. I just feel in these particularly difficult times the association needs someone that has more time on their hands than I feel you have. Someone who is happy to stay for as long as the members want them whether (under the current terms) that be 3 or 6 years.

Re Don, I feel I know more about him than the others as he is frequently in contact with the membership. From where I sit I believe he is doing a good job as Secretary and I would like to see him continue in that role. I actually think he does more than his job description.

My vote doesn’t go to Simon. The more research I do the more I feel the chip on his shoulder I referred to in an earlier post is self-inflicted. I can’t vote for a person that practices self-harm and could potentially destroy my association. I want BASI to continue to gain respect throughout the world, not be known for having a chairman that continually broke the rules of the country he chose to work from.
The full facts will hopefully soon be out and I look forward to reading them. Shame neither side can defend themselves.

I don’t know much about James, so please someone post something.

So, Bob Kinnaird currently still sits firmly at the top of the list for me.
I believe before driving forward the association needs a bit of time to take stock, regroup and find a way to engage its members.
I am thinking Bob is tried and tested. An experienced safe pair of hands and disciplines other than just Alpine can relate to him, and he to them. Someone, I feel, more capable than the other candidates of providing much needed stability, repairing cracks, and steering the association back on course and into the future.

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^ a stable BASI will presumably continue to abuse the human rights of its members, to which it was forced to admit.

You say you await the full facts, yet you pre-judge that Simon has continued to break French rules. The last time it came to a head (2006), the French court decided he hadn't. Currently, his case in France is in abeyance, since the Rhône-Alpes prefecture is under investigation for breaking French law in relation to processing declarations.

So far, so unimpressed. Having read the statements from the Bob & Jim I'm not convinced that they represent the best interests for the wider membership.

You know it makes sense.

their statements are justifications of the past 15 years and the current pyramid structure. No mention of working rights for L2 or L3 and I assume they will just maintain the status quo... Vote for change, vote for Simon or Coral.

If you need any convincing that Don B is completely wrong for the role of chairman read his statement on the BASI Members only FB page. Definite no vote from me.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

@skimottaret, So far I've drafted a couple of posts to put up here and on the FB page but didn't follow through with pressing the button !

There are some underlying themes which I strongly disagree with. I suspect I'll vote Simon, not least because over the years I've had the nagging feeling that his battle is one that BASI should be fighting, at least in terms of working rights for members.

A snowHead

^ IMHO : it is best for the organisation that the new chairperson should ideally have nothing to do with the ongoing Simon Butler soap opera ?
For that reason Simon Butler and Don Bates should both stand down. Not least because the court case hasn't been resolved.

Coral seems to have a good CV / highly thought of / nice person.
However she is not a ski instructor and a much more limited background in the snowsport industry (I don't know her).
Hence my own belief that Bob Kinnaird and Jimmy Lister are by far the best candidates.

FWIW :: I think the winning candidate will probably get no more than 30-40% of vote on low turn out.
So the voting system should be changed to some kind PR next time with candidates numbered 1-5.
To ensure winning candidate can claim to have broad appeal.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

@Haggis_Trap, do you believe that all current board members who been party to the SB fiasco should also stand down?
PR Will never get voted in for basi elections due to the current AOA .

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@Haggis_Trap, which country (by a long way) has the largest number of British skiers per annum?

Which country has the most "closed door" policy to foreign ski instructors?

I think these questions answer why personally, "I'm not sick of the saga" and working why rights should be on the agenda.

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@Haggis_Trap, Busy ski teaching in Italy this week (one of only two countries in the EC with a single tier ski instructor system and where skiing is a regulated profession but as a BASI L3 I am perfectly legal and licensed by the Italians to work here Wink

)

Couple of quick points on L2 and L3 working rights...

1. Phil Smith, Hugh Monney and Ian McKellar where arrested and thrown in cells while plying their trade in France when they tested the law in France as BASI top level instructors in a similar fashion as Simon Butler is doing now for non-top levels. At that time instead of pursuing an EC lawsuit a compromise was reached in 2000 (signed by Bob K who is running for chair) known as the FEMPs agreement which instituted the Eurotest and Mountain Safety for Mutual Recognition of qualifications.

Although this is an agreement between Instructor Associations and Trade Unions and was not public law it respected and referenced the overriding EC Directives on Freedom of Movement of professionals for both permanent Right of Establishment AND Temporary Provision of Services. Read it if you wish to understand more http://www.skimottaret.com/resources/FEMPS-agreement-2000.pdf This agreement now forms the basis of the MoU pilot programme.

Please read Annex VI on Provision of Services. All parties including the French clearly agreed that visiting instructors could work 4 weeks year with groups from their home nation on piste. This is in line with EC law but have you ever known BASI to notify any members of this important part of the agreement? There was a special easier speed test to allow for 4 weeks work. This was implemented in Italy as the AVMS test but never in France where they ignore declarations for temporary working.

Another part of the FEMPs agreement was that BASI ISIA qualified instructors were exempt from the Test Technique and could work within a French training centre while completing their BASI qualifications to L4. Many, many L3's worked their way through BASI ISTD in this fashion. Then, Andy L decided that this hard fought right was a bargaining chip and sacrificed ISIA working rights for 30-40 snowboarders (the Satolas Agreement) and L3 lost the right to work in France while completing the BASI system. I would like our new chairman to regain that lost right.

17 years ago BASI managed a compromise and won the battle for ISTD's to permanently establish themselves in EC countries which was our right all along under EC directives! They have done little more than maintain the status quo for L4s for the last 17 years. They hide and obfuscate the rules for L2 and L3's.

Myself and few others have researched the laws and work legally within the EC yet when presented with detailed how to apply to work instructions BASI made no effort to promote the temporary right to work even when presented with clear instructions on how to do so, they do not support a member who is testing the waters in France, they spend over 100k to go to a conference to meet other instructor associations yet dont bother to meet the government officials in foreign countries to establish for working rights, no bilateral agreements for rights in countries that aren't regulated, they vote against an age handicap for the international speed test siding with the French...

I could go on but dinner calls ! Very Happy

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@skimottaret, + 1000 Smile

@skimottaret. Good history lesson.
IMHO all good reason to vote for Bob Kinnaird.

Though do you seriously believe that voting for Simon Butler will improve BASI relationship with the French ?!
Like it or not BASI will always face uphill battle in France unless their candidates have a TT or ET (exactly like a native would require). Dont shoot the messenger.

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@Haggis_Trap, you're very supportive of the EU, but also of a member nation's right to ignore EU rules. Does not compute.

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