 Poster: A snowHead
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| As I passed, the beginner suddenly changed how they were turning and went sharp right, towards me and the drop. I had no time to adjust and they skied into me and carried us off the slope. |
So you didn't leave enough room for you to react to the skier in front of you doing something unexpected. Who was in the wrong?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would guess the majority of folks already have a view on that @rob@rar
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ansta1 wrote: |
| I would guess the majority of folks already have a view on that @rob@rar |
Indeed, but I do find it surprising that a small number of people continue to argue the case that the person in front of them should modify their behaviour in some way in response to a warning that a faster skier is coming through.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| Always polite |
Wrong. Polite would be giving people the space they need as you pass them. If there's not space, don't overtake. They have just as much right too be on the hill as you, including not feeling like they are being hassled by somebody being them. |
I agree that we all have a right to the slope. Also slowing down and waiting are the first 2 options.
But giving a polite verbal alert, not shouting, is fine when passing on narrow cruisy slopes.
or shall I just sneak up on them?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@bezthespaniard, my appologies, english is not my native languages, can you advice please on how to say politly - "u r stupid"😙? Skied into you in the provided explanation? 😝
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 22-12-14 20:24; edited 1 time in total
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| As I passed, the beginner suddenly changed how they were turning and went sharp right, towards me and the drop. I had no time to adjust and they skied into me and carried us off the slope. |
So you didn't leave enough room for you to react to the skier in front of you doing something unexpected.It Who was in the wrong? |
Tons of room left. Why do you assume I didn't?
What would you have done? There was loads of room between him and the edge.
Should i never overtake, is that your answer?
In response to your question, I certainly wasn't at fault. He was at fault for losing control but he didn't mean it.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
But giving a polite verbal alert, not shouting, is fine when passing on narrow cruisy slopes.
or shall I just sneak up on them? |
It's not fine, it can easily be misunderstood, for some skiers it will be just one more thing to get stressed by, it can mean some people are more likely to fall and, IMO, it's just plain rude.
There is a third option which you seem not to be aware of. Be patient and pass when there is room to overtake. It's pretty simple, and if nothing else a matter of common courtesy. I'm skiing this week in a resort where the pistes are often narrower than they usually are. On several occasions today there simply wasn't the room to pass safely, even by skiing off the side of the piste, so I had to drop in to a snowplough and match my speed to the skiers in front until the piste widened or the skiers thinned out and there was room to pass.
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@bezthespaniard, is surely just trolling. Hopefully no one is thick enough to publicly confirm there were in the wrong while claiming they are in the right.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
Tons of room left. Why do you assume I didn't?
What would you have done? There was loads of room between him and the edge.
Should i never overtake, is that your answer?
In response to your question, I certainly wasn't at fault. He was at fault for losing control but he didn't mean it. |
Friendly advice: when you're in a hole, stop digging.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| As I passed, the beginner suddenly changed how they were turning and went sharp right, towards me and the drop. I had no time to adjust and they skied into me and carried us off the slope. |
So you didn't leave enough room for you to react to the skier in front of you doing something unexpected.It Who was in the wrong? |
Tons of room left. Why do you assume I didn't?
What would you have done? There was loads of room between him and the edge.
Should i never overtake, is that your answer?
In response to your question, I certainly wasn't at fault. He was at fault for losing control but he didn't mean it. |
Tons of room and you chose to ski immediatly next to a learner? Well done!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
But giving a polite verbal alert, not shouting, is fine when passing on narrow cruisy slopes.
or shall I just sneak up on them? |
It's not fine, it can easily be misunderstood, for some skiers it will be just one more thing to get stressed by, it can mean some people are more likely to fall and, IMO, it's just plain rude.
There is a third option which you seem not to be aware of. Be patient and pass when there is room to overtake. It's pretty simple, and if nothing else a matter of common courtesy. I'm skiing this week in a resort where the pistes are often narrower than they usually are. On several occasions today there simply wasn't the room to pass safely, even by skiing off the side of the piste, so I had to drop in to a snowplough and match my speed to the skiers in front until the piste widened or the skiers thinned out and there was room to pass. |
I truly think you are so so wrong and are an example of bad skiing etiquette that causes issues.
As i said before, patience is essential.
Are you aware of Chamonix? If so, think of Le Tour.
There is a long, thin slope that takes you right across the mountain. Pretty flat and very narrow.
If you stop, you will be walking for a long time.
When I'm passing anyone I say something like 'escuse moi, merci'
They can hear me and know where I am as I pass.
If a skier is shocked by my shout then they aren't ready for the slopes. There are far more things that will cause them issues ahead of me talking...
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| mooney058 wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| As I passed, the beginner suddenly changed how they were turning and went sharp right, towards me and the drop. I had no time to adjust and they skied into me and carried us off the slope. |
So you didn't leave enough room for you to react to the skier in front of you doing something unexpected.It Who was in the wrong? |
Tons of room left. Why do you assume I didn't?
What would you have done? There was loads of room between him and the edge.
Should i never overtake, is that your answer?
In response to your question, I certainly wasn't at fault. He was at fault for losing control but he didn't mean it. |
Tons of room and you chose to ski immediatly next to a learner? Well done! |
Where did i say i went right next to them. I was no where near them and they lost control and swung out and hit me.
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You know it makes sense.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| ... they lost control and swung out and hit me. |
Because you didn't leave them enough room 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| TTT wrote: |
| @bezthespaniard, is surely just trolling. Hopefully no one is thick enough to publicly confirm there were in the wrong while claiming they are in the right. |
Thanks for the rude comments. Im not trolling at all but it seems that you guys are so amazing at skiing that you would never ever be in a situation as above.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| ... they lost control and swung out and hit me. |
Because you didn't leave them enough room |
So you think I should never overtake someone else just in case they lose control?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@rob@rar,
I hope you don't think that I'm in agreement with Bez here. I agree with you that in all circumstances, no matter what the person in front does you should have a strategy and the ability to avoid them (be that slowing, stopping, going a bit cross-country, etc...) A cat-track is probably the one place where you are taking a line that brings you close enough that you do have to react a bit quicker, particularly when there are other skiers and borders also interacting in the same limited space behind you as well as in front.
I am pointing out that there is a reason for _occasionally_ as I noted calling out (clicking poles is just annoying )
For me one example case for this is when there is a fast mover, almost certainly a snowboarder (I only mention snowboarders because they tend to take the hits more and have a blind side to be aware of - could be a skier too as my son often gets distracted the same !!  ) ) who is possibly going to take an erratic path when I am passing on a narrow cat-track. Yes you are aware they have a blind side, but if said snowboarder decides to hit a jump, the even turns suddenly are not, plus you have to deal with someone spearing back across the cat-track when they land it wrong. I am sure you will say that that is fine you should swerve out of the potential landing zone, but then you punt the person who is going past you faster than you off the edge - but heh you had the right of way so that's fine?
Better that everyone knows where everyone is.
The place I am thinking where this happens is very often busy with good to expert and beyond skiers/boarders on it and often moving reasonably fast.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 22-12-14 20:42; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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i have been.
as the lower or slightly further ahead skier.
and funnily enough also taken out by (a) and ESF instructor in that instance, (b) 2 boarders, both of whom cartwheeled up the bank, (c) buzzed by someone that buzzed surfski eve closer to the point that we almost gave chase with intention of throwing his skis in to the trees and apphrened him until the carabinieri tunred up, and (d) strangely only Brits that say "on yer right, mate!" (good job I come from Kent, and can understand Saaf East Lundun accent).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| ... they lost control and swung out and hit me. |
Because you didn't leave them enough room |
So you think I should never overtake someone else just in case they lose control? |
No, the point is you should have enough control that when they lose it you don't hit them
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| So you think I should never overtake someone else just in case they lose control? |
I think you should leave enough room for the skier in front to do something unexpected. It's what I did today, it's what I try to do whenever I want to pass somebody on a cat track.
If somebody does something unexpected as you pass them and bump in to you IT IS YOU WHO ARE IN THE WRONG. It's really very simple.
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@bezthespaniard, well done you have got it finally. You seem to have no problem with being rude to people on the slopes so don't be so precious if people point out your rudeness and ignorance.
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@stuarth, no, I don't think you are in agreement with Bez. But the question I ask myself if someone gives a verbal warning, what do you want the person to do with that information? If you want them to act on it (even if it's continue on their same trajectory), then you are expecting the person below you to modify they behaviour because you, as the faster skier, want to pass them and there is not enough room to do so without a warning. Yes, I agree that boarders playing with jumps and spins on a flat track is annoying, but don't they have the right to do that as much as skiers have the right to zip along at speed...?
A shouted warning to alert somebody of an imminent collision as you come from behind might be a natural response, but by then you are already in the wrong and it should be followed by an immediate apology.
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@bezthespaniard, do you drive a German car by any chance? You seem to make the assumption that it's okay for you to do what you want as long as you let people know you are going to do it. It's an attitude of mind that you probably won't change. I make the assumption that I'm only as important as the rest of the skiers on the hill. I want to be free to make the turns I want to make based on what is in front of me. I don't expect to have to change my line because someone behind me is shouting about what they want to do. I probably will give way but I don't feel that an uphill skier should assume or expect me to.
By the way, I think some of the people taking you to task are instructors. This is a pastime with rules of behaviour and they are trying to explain them to you.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| So you think I should never overtake someone else just in case they lose control? |
I think you should leave enough room for the skier in front to do something unexpected. It's what I did today, it's what I try to do whenever I want to pass somebody on a cat track.
If somebody does something unexpected as you pass them and bump in to you IT IS YOU WHO ARE IN THE WRONG. It's really very simple. |
I disagree again.
A. I passed a long way from the guy that hit me
B. I was already past him
C. He lost control and went a significant distance out of his way to hit me
D. I couldn't react because he was now behind me
The situation you describe essentially means you can never overtake anyone ever just in case something goes wrong. What is enough room as you describe? 1m? 2m? 10? 50?
if you squeeze past then you are wrong but being a long way from them and being in control is enough. If they have a big wipe out and do something completely unexpected then you are not at fault.
You may not mean it but it comes across as very arrogant. It sounds like you are claiming that this event could never happen to you...
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And more specifically on the video, gopro guy chose the wrong line. Those beginners tracked a very predictable line in my view. Waiting or taking the right hand side would have been the best choice. I would guess gopro guy took the left hand side because he didn't feel safe on the right hand side, primarily because he wasn't a good enough blader/skier. Indeed some of the turns they made were earlier, but that is the concertina snake effect that happens in all learner groups.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| It sounds like you are claiming that this event could never happen to you... |
I've been skiing for for 35 years, and now ski more or less full time. Never hit or been hit by somebody on a cat track.
You can try and justify it all you want, but you are wrong. It really is very simple.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
sounds like you are claiming that this event could never happen to you...
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Never happened to me so far, i am obviously arrogant.
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| henzerani wrote: |
@bezthespaniard, do you drive a German car by any chance? You seem to make the assumption that it's okay for you to do what you want as long as you let people know you are going to do it. It's an attitude of mind that you probably won't change. I make the assumption that I'm only as important as the rest of the skiers on the hill. I want to be free to make the turns I want to make based on what is in front of me. I don't expect to have to change my line because someone behind me is shouting about what they want to do. I probably will give way but I don't feel that an uphill skier should assume or expect me to.
By the way, I think some of the people taking you to task are instructors. This is a pastime with rules of behaviour and they are trying to explain them to you. |
I'm sorry but you are so wrong too. I'm talking about overtaking on narrow slopes. Cat track type slopes like the one at Le Tour. I make verbal warnings to make then aware of me. Too many people make a sudden stop without looking so i make them aware of me so they don't.
I don't expect them to change how they are skiing. I'm warning them so they don't do suddenly change what they are doing as i pass.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
@stuarth, no, I don't think you are in agreement with Bez. But the question I ask myself if someone gives a verbal warning, what do you want the person to do with that information? If you want them to act on it (even if it's continue on their same trajectory), then you are expecting the person below you to modify they behaviour because you, as the faster skier, want to pass them and there is not enough room to do so without a warning. Yes, I agree that boarders playing with jumps and spins on a flat track is annoying, but don't they have the right to do that as much as skiers have the right to zip along at speed...?
A shouted warning to alert somebody of an imminent collision as you come from behind might be a natural response, but by then you are already in the wrong and it should be followed by an immediate apology. |
You are misunderstanding. The verbal warning isn't so they change their skiing.
It is to let them know where i am before they decide to do something unpredictable.
In fact, we went with UCPA instructors and they always give warnings in french. But they are wrong obviously...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@bezthespaniard, it's okay to make a decision and be wrong sometimes. But the reaction is to apologise and see if the person or people involved are okay. @rob@rar, has mentioned about taking responsibility and apologising earlier in the thread.
And like I said, it's an attitude of mind. So I expect you to think I'm wrong. But, in fact everyone has the right to ski a hill and the rules say the downhill skier has priority.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| I don't expect them to change how they are skiing. I'm warning them so they don't do suddenly change what they are doing as i pass. |
Can you not see that those two sentences are contradictory? You have no right to expect the person in front of you to do anything, even if that anything is to not do something unexpected.
Honestly, you are making yourself look very foolish. Even if you aren't prepared to change your attitude to your fellow slope users when you are in the hill, at the very least stop doing yourself a disservice on this forum.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
@stuarth, no, I don't think you are in agreement with Bez. But the question I ask myself if someone gives a verbal warning, what do you want the person to do with that information? If you want them to act on it (even if it's continue on their same trajectory), then you are expecting the person below you to modify they behaviour because you, as the faster skier, want to pass them and there is not enough room to do so without a warning. Yes, I agree that boarders playing with jumps and spins on a flat track is annoying, but don't they have the right to do that as much as skiers have the right to zip along at speed...?
A shouted warning to alert somebody of an imminent collision as you come from behind might be a natural response, but by then you are already in the wrong and it should be followed by an immediate apology. |
My point is that I am pretty sure I have the ability to avoid said person (I use that just as an example) - what I am not entirely sure of is the ability of those around me to avoid me when I am taking such evasive measures or at least to do so without themselves risking injury to me or themselves.
I could take the view that strictly speaking this is not my problem, but in practice it is.
It is not a case of annoying boarders, just sometimes misguided timing (as I say my 6 year an be very misguided on this!) if the track is not busy or not full of people who just have the next double/treble black powder hit in mind then I might be hitting the jumps on the side myself 
I'm going to stop arguing the point on this now, since I can see your point of view, and it is strictly speaking correct. Also don't want to be seen to be supporting Bez' perspective on this.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 22-12-14 22:56; edited 4 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| @bezthespaniard, well done you have got it finally. You seem to have no problem with being rude to people on the slopes so don't be so precious if people point out your rudeness and ignorance. |
I'm never rude on the slopes. In fact I'm always polite.
Never had anyone take issue with me on the slopes.
But obviously you keep being rude and trying to justify it
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@bezthespaniard, brilliant - you are claiming you know better than ski instructors  how do you think that makes you look? Are you Mr gopro blader?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| In fact, we went with UCPA instructors and they always give warnings in french. But they are wrong obviously... |
Yes they are.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| stuarth wrote: |
My point is that I am pretty sure I have the ability to avoid said person - what I am not entirely sure of is the ability of those around me to avoid me when I am taking such evasive measures (I use that just as an example), or at least to do so without themselves risking injury to me or themselves.
I could take the view that strictly speaking this is not my problem, but in practice it is.
It is not a case of annoying, if the track is not busy or not full of people who just have the next double/treble black powder hit in mind then I might be hitting the jumps on the side myself |
I know it's tempting to give a friendly warning and it's done with the best of intention, but I just think at best it's unnecessary and can make the situation worse. Having skied with, and taught, people who are completely freaked by any sort of noise from behind them I know the effect that a shouted warning can have.
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@bezthespaniard, you have confirmed you take people out and distract them and think you are more important than they are. Pointing out that you are rude, ignorant and not very bright based on what you have written on this forum is merely a statement of fact.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| I don't expect them to change how they are skiing. I'm warning them so they don't do suddenly change what they are doing as i pass. |
Can you not see that those two sentences are contradictory? You have no right to expect the person in front of you to do anything, even if that anything is to not do something unexpected.
Honestly, you are making yourself look very foolish. Even if you aren't prepared to change your attitude to your fellow slope users when you are in the hill, at the very least stop doing yourself a disservice on this forum. |
I see your point on paper but in reality it isn't best practice.
On the Le Tour cat track I'm using an example, everyone is going pretty slowly as it is quite flat and people are cruising past each other. Every now and again, someone drops off the cat track to the off piste, suddenly stops or drifts near the edge.
I have seen dozens of times where this action comes out of nowhere and someone trying to pass is clipped or hit.
The skier who is ahead has a right, on paper, to ski as they wish. In reality, if they suddenly stop they will cause a problem due to high numbers of people behind them.
It is my argument that a polite verbal alert makes someone aware of you which means they won't do something that equals a collision.
All well and good In theory to stay quiet but I try to minimise accidents any way i can.
Your point is more relevant on steep slopes where people shouldn't be as close to allow them to take their preferred line.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| TTT wrote: |
| @bezthespaniard, you have confirmed you take people out and distract them and think you are more important than they are. Pointing out that you are rude, ignorant and not very bright based on what you have written on this forum is merely a statement of fact. |
I have claimed none of what you say. But don't let that stop you from assuming... we all know what that makes...
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| bezthespaniard wrote: |
| I see your point on paper but in reality it isn't best practice. |
Nonsense. Best practice is to pass safely or be patient until it is safe to pass. You might thing that's an irritation and that other slope users should get out of your way, but that's not what is stated by either common courtesy or the FIS rules for conduct on the slopes.
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FAQ
