 Poster: A snowHead
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Our commonly agreed dissatisfaction with these rulings seems an ideal justification for the existence of the European Parliament----to get a sensible law which sets an appropriate level of ability for someone to lead people(in all conditions) on marked and patrolled ski runs.
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Commonly agreed - by who?
Anyway to change the subject can someone tell me the dates the following occurred:
Tour operators stopped guiding and started hosting
Tour operators stopped hosting and started becoming "social skiing"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@pam w, I think your sailing example is really good. For once I agree with almost everything you have said. I believe the Italian's have been watching what is going on in France, just across the mountain pass and realise they are also on a winner. It has now been confirmed to me that it was the ESF that were party to the prosecution in France. They effectively requested action to be taken. I am very disappointed with the ESF in Val d'Isere for doing this. I know quite a few of the Instructors up there through racing. I do wonder if the average ESF Instructor even knows what is going on.
@albob, In Italy they have produced the relevant law code which the Tour companies and likely the SCGB are breaking. On the SCGB page they have said they are discussing this with the Italian authorities. The SCGB only has two Leader resorts in Italy, but I would not be surprised if they suspend their programme until this situation is also resolved. I would not want to be a SCGB leader and get arrested by the Italians. Could be a real pain. If you go to Planet Ski news thread they have the official quoted law which is being broken. Apparently it has been around for a long time, but only now is being enforced. Hence why I think they have copied the French.
It will be interesting to see how this is all resolved, if it is?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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From the BASI members group on facebook (by an Italian) :
The only folk who can lead groups in the mountains are...
"1) volunteers, which does not operate in a professional way and don't get retribution OF ANY KIND. That is to say that they are like friends showing places to Luther friends with no uniforms, nor badges, nor money from clients, hotels, tour operators..
2) professional figures: guide alpine (mountain guides), accompagnatori di media montagna (first step to become mountain guide), maestri, assistenti di scuola sci (in the regions where this level gas been introducted, it is the first step to become a maestro).
The only exception is "Legge 2 gennaio 1989, n. 6 sull’ordinamento della professione di guida alpina riserva una particolare tutela legale alle scuole e agli istruttori del CAI. L’art. 20 stabilisce pr le Scuole e gli Istruttori del CAI che:
Il Club alpino italiano, ai sensi delle lettere d) ed e) dell'articolo 2 della legge 26 gennaio 1963, n. 91, come sostituito dall'articolo 2 della legge 24 dicembre 1985, n. 776, conserva la facoltà di organizzare scuole e corsi di addestramento a carattere non professionale per le attività alpinistiche, sci-alpinistiche, escursionistiche, speleologiche, naturalistiche e per la formazione dei relativi istruttori.
Gli istruttori del C.A.I. svolgono la loro opera a carattere non professionale e non possono ricevere retribuzioni.
Le attività degli istruttori e delle scuole del C.A.I. sono disciplinate dai regolamenti del Club alpino italiano.
Al di fuori di quanto previsto dalla presente legge, le altre attività didattiche per le finalità di cui al comma 1 non possono essere denominate “scuole di alpinismo” o “di sci-alpinismo” e i relativi istruttori non possono ricevere compensi a nessun titolo.
So long story short, imo if you guide as work, without holding the "maestro" or "guida alpina" title, you are passible of criminal charges, e.g. "chiunque abusivamente esercita una professione (1), per la quale è richiesta una speciale abilitazione dello Stato [2229] (2), è punito con la reclusione fino a sei mesi o con la multa da centotre euro a cinquecentosedici euro." and "Chiunque, fuori dei casi previsti dall'articolo 497 ter, abusivamente porta in pubblico la divisa o i segni distintivi (1) di un ufficio o impiego pubblico, o di un Corpo politico, amministrativo o giudiziario, ovvero di una professione per la quale è richiesta una speciale abilitazione dello Stato [348], ovvero indossa abusivamente in pubblico l'abito ecclesiastico, è punito con la sanzione amministrativa pecuniaria da centocinquantaquattro euro a novecentoventinove euro." (art.498 c.p.), and of course no insurance will help, in case of accidents, concerning civil matters."
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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You mean if lead my mate around the Dolomites I can't wear a Snowhead's sticker & accept a pint even though it's his round 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@lechjohn, no it is ok for him to buy you a beer afterwards. Not while you are out skiing. But be careful about the badge, Snowheads is getting big now and many people have stickers so they might think you are part of something official 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@feef, Those are the details I read as well. Seems quite clear and these are not new rules. They have just started to enforce them.
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@TTT,
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@tarrantd, I think you will find you said level 4s not me.
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I know plenty of level 2s that I would not be comfortable leading a group off the mountain in a white-out whereas a level 4 seems to have an inbuilt gps so
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think perhaps it has something to do with the fact that the Italian ski schools think that the guides are teaching. I was once marched into the office of the Carabinieri (think thats how u spell it) and told to produce my passport and proof that i wasn't teaching when i was simply skiing with guests.
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The comedy thing is that the tour operators probably want people to be in a ski school rather than guided by them as they get a commission! If they thought people would pay for it, they wouldn't offer it for free!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@mozwold, again I was asked my personal view on level suitable to lead a group. I said 2.5 instructor level as I think they should be a competent skier with some training based on my experience of reps getting into trouble. I do ski with holiday skiers and someone else has the map but we make our own personal decisions and no one is leading the group.
I also made the point that I understand why the French and Italians expect people to be fuilly qualified as I feel safer with a level 4 as they can ski well in all conditions everywhere and have more experience training and awareness. Skiing countries have higher standards and expectations that we do as I've never heard locals make a fuss about these matters.
It is up to EU countries to make their own laws providing they comply with EU rules. No one has given me any convincing valid arguments that French/Italian laws don't comply with EU rules in all these matters.
I don't really understand what there is to get excited about. I rarely use a Piste map. I just ski what is in front of me and refer to signs or ask a local if necessary. And in the age of social media it is easy to meet up, just get chatting in a bar or the TO/hotel can just post meet-ups if that is what people want.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@madlondoner, agreed - it does not appear to be a service that they will pay for but they will pay for a bar crawl so clearly not something that people value very highly so it does seem like some people are desperately looking for a stick.
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IMO this is no great long term loss for the T/O's as it will save money,!!
ie. we stayed with chalet company a few times and some of their larger chalets they had an extra person to act as ski guide rather than being a full time 'chalet' staff.. now that 'guide person ' is not needed..
Also, with no 'skiing' required it will allow the T/O's to use staff from other holiday destinations who can't ski to cover in ski resorts.
Then eventually us skiers will forget about ' social skiing'' or 'ski guiding ' and start using the piste map again, or just following ya mate who has been there before !!
i can't seeing it leading onto anything else such as restrictions in working in resort, but one never knows...now that would be a fun topic
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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The price of a bar crawl is pure profit for the TO/reps. Bars provide shots for free in exchange for ability to flog booze to a captive market for 40 minutes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Dave of the Marmottes, sounds right, I have boosted the profits of many a bar. What is the TO/rep split ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| lechjohn wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, sounds right, I have boosted the profits of many a bar. What is the TO/rep split ? |
In my experience most goes to the T/O's
Having worked for T/O's bar crawls are a right pain in the bum, getting freebies from bars not as widespread as you think(you mostly often have to pay for drinks if they are supplied by a bar) and resort politics mean you often have to use certain bars and not others.
Will be interested long term effect of lost of ski hosting, escorting, social skiing.. Could lead to reduced staff in the bigger resorts and certainly would allow t/o's to employ more summer reps currently not taken on due to their lack of skiing ability.
I for one enjoyed escorting and those that came on it on the whole thought the service worthwhile. Can't see many booking qualified guides as an alternative and for myself going as a sole passenger to Italy in December I will miss the service as don't like skiing alone.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Escorting?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@lechjohn, How did you find this, maybe you better not tell us! 
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Crystal: one of the new girls this season?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@admin, @lechjohn, I consider myself suitably and fairly admonished. Was not intentional. I do actually value the information as well as the better understanding of issues from those with different views and experiences.. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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well i 'perused' them all -- Dominika is the stand out one (will provide her own Skis/Boot/Lift Pass  ......!)
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Pinched this from the Neilson Ski Forum (posted by Julie - Area Manager, Verona)
"...In Italy it depends which resort you are travelling to - the Piemonte resorts (close to France) in Turin Gateway have already contacted us regarding this, however, Lorraine and her team have arranged an alternative to this already working with the local ski schools and also service centres on the mountain.
Dolomites - we are waiting on confirmation
Livigno - have confirmed we are okay to ski guide and this will go ahead as planned.
All our reps this winter in Italy are experienced skiers with a passion for the mountain and many of them are back from last year. We're all really excited as just had another large snowfall this weekend and most of the resorts are opening up very soon..."
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You know it makes sense.
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| philwig wrote: |
| TTT wrote: |
| It really is a very small minority who use the service so it comes across as yet again a small vocal minority using any excuse to get into a froth about the different culture of people from other countries. |
But the British culture is to have these "leaders", an activity which has been perfectly safe and legal for years. That argument works both ways.
The suggestion that these closed shops have any connection with safety is risible.
I guess people will vote with their feet - there are plenty of places without such restrictive practices. |
The problem for you is that most Alpine countries have their own culture rather than the 'British Culture'. This seems to be starting to generally tighten up on meeting the local employment regulations for staff working in the Alps and for adhering to various guiding, hosting and instructional rules.
Think you are fairly safe in voting with your feet - Bankso are probably still without these 'restrictive practices'.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Indeed - CH shutting down Chalet holidays with minimum wage rules and needing a work permit and swiss patente to work independently not to mention letting law breakers instruct . AU - minimum wage rules plus restrictions on setting up British ski schools. Italy - instructor, off-piste and social skiing restrictions. Fr - instructor and social skiing restrictions. US - closed shop run by resorts. No doubt various restrictions in other countries. It is getting really difficult to know where I should ski? UK dry slopes and snowdomes?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| TTT wrote: |
| Indeed - CH shutting down Chalet holidays with minimum wage rules and needing a work permit and swiss patente to work independently not to mention letting law breakers instruct . AU - minimum wage rules plus restrictions on setting up British ski schools. Italy - instructor, off-piste and social skiing restrictions. Fr - instructor and social skiing restrictions. US - closed shop run by resorts. No doubt various restrictions in other countries. It is getting really difficult to know where I should ski? UK dry slopes and snowdomes? |
You certainly get the 'British Culture' there and avoid johnny foreigner to boot.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@emwmarine, you might also argue that there wasn't a local culture of winter Alpine tourism until the Brits came along, so all these countries suddenly deciding they don't like how British TOs operate is biting the hands that feed them
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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not that I'm a cultural imperialist or anything
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Good old Sir Henry Lunn, whatoh
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not just British culture to have these leaders. Scandies guide customers too as do the dutch and I doubt they all have relevant qualifications either
Loss of guiding too could also affect ski away days organised from resort which I have always enjoyed as a customer and working as a rep. Not sure whether these will still be featured if ski leading not offered as part of the day.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| TTT wrote: |
| Indeed - CH shutting down Chalet holidays with minimum wage rules and needing a work permit and swiss patente to work independently not to mention letting law breakers instruct . AU - minimum wage rules plus restrictions on setting up British ski schools. Italy - instructor, off-piste and social skiing restrictions. Fr - instructor and social skiing restrictions. US - closed shop run by resorts. No doubt various restrictions in other countries. It is getting really difficult to know where I should ski? UK dry slopes and snowdomes? |
In fact if it wasn't for the laws enshrining EU freedom of movement I wouldn't be surprised if the French, Italians and Austrians didn't ban the British from visiting the ski resorts completely
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Without wishing to go round in circles again but I don't think anyone has banned anything.
I think they have just insisted that people comply with various employment laws and other various rules and regulations regarding qualification levels.
If this means that certain things - such as even offering Chalet holidays in CH, providing properly qualified and paid hosts - are now more expensive than the market can bear, then that's a different issue.
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@dsoutar, indeed and if a certain previous BASI member gets his way that issue will be dealt with
At the risk of repeating myself again I would still like to know where it is acceptable for me to ski if I should decide to subscribe to the Daily Mail and join UKIP ?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| dsoutar wrote: |
| In fact if it wasn't for the laws enshrining EU freedom of movement I wouldn't be surprised if the French, Italians and Austrians didn't ban the British from visiting the ski resorts completely |
Off topic but I have just spotted that the word I have highlighted in bold in my original message has a hyperlink to skis of the same name (which I happen to have a pair of). Do the manufacturers pay for this rather nifty advertising "facility" ? Does it apply to other words like say, atomic, for example ?
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@dsoutar, this is a 'functionality under development'.
As you've discovered, we have a new database of ski models featuring this year's ranges.Well, as much as possible - Salomon/Atomic/Rossignol have been 'too busy' thus far to reap the benefit of such 'free advertising' although Rossi have said they'll do it Friday. . It's also accessible via the snowBase menu, above.
At the moment though it's not designed as an advertising mechanism so much as a facility for snowHeads. The hot words you've noticed refer to the brands who have got around to sending us their product data for this season. Hence any mention of the brand gives a short cut to their current range, for reference.
It also displays the results from our skiTests: eg. last month's OktoberTest.
The results go up live so, technicalities permitting, Chill Factore test results will start appearing on Saturday from 5PM, when the test begins. The Tamworth ones will start appearing from 8PM on Wednesday next week.
As I say, it's a facility under development so its functionality should evolve and improve as I find the time to build it.
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FAQ
