 Poster: A snowHead
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| DB wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| DB wrote: |
| What happens to pensions? |
in what respect? |
As I understand it there is an agreement between various countries in Europe whereby Expats are credited for payments made in their homeland. I was wondering if this would be affected. |
You are right and I think you are correct to be concerned. The only positive thing is that EEA countries are also part of this scheme - so 5 years work in Switzerland can count to your German pension, f'example.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
here is the funny thing....
UK has about 2 million ex-pats in EU (mainly Spain) and roughly 2 million immigrants.
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It is the demographic of these people that is frightening. The immigrants are largely young workers paying taxes, doing jobs etc. A large part of the ex-pat community in Spain are pensioners.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Carn't imagine that there are many on this forum that would be infavour of leaving the EU and all the consequences that may have for added hassle and expense to Alpine ski holidays 
As Stanton points out, plenty of UK citizens have voted with their feet and seem to be enjoying a higher standard of living in the EU outside the UK.
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One other consequence of UK exit will be a complete overhaul of the business model
for British Chalet operators. Many of which hire UK employees & pay & tax etc in the UK.
For sure this would cease & they would have to use local labour or apply
for work visas for non EU employees & pay & tax,social,pensions in the country
of operation.
I would imagine this would seriously effect the finances!!!??
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stanton wrote: |
One other consequence of UK exit will be a complete overhaul of the business model
for British Chalet operators. Many of which hire UK employees & pay & tax etc in the UK.
For sure this would cease & they would have to use local labour or apply
for work visas for non EU employees & pay & tax,social,pensions in the country
of operation.
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Really you don't know what would happen but it is likely, given the UKs economic weight (there is a large trade imbalance with Germany so the Germans wouldn't want to rock the boat too much with their mittelstand) that there would be a similar situation to EEA countries such as Swizterland. That is, exactly the same situation as now where you can work 6 months detached from your UK employer.
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davidof, Austria Federal states especially the Tirol has for some years been looking to close down loopholes in what they call "seasonal work & play migrants" circumventing paying local taxes & social security. Not to be confused with "seasonal economic migrants"
I am not saying that Non EU will not be able to work or operate but it will become a lot more difficult because all employees will have to paid a full going salary, sick pay etc and administred through a local salary bureau. Obviously the costs to Chalet operations will "significantly" increase to what they are now.
In effect UK companys like Crystal, SkiWorld, Mark Warner will have to setup for example Austrian or French Subsidary Companys. i.e Crystal Austria GmbH, SkiWorld Austria GmbH.
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half of them are owned by TUI
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Davidof, Switzerland is not part of the EEA.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think he means EFTA.
Basically stanton is worrying for no reason. If the UK exited the EU it's highly likely all the free trade agreements would be renegotiated prior to it's exit and things for people working in the EU or working in the UK from the EU would be transparent. Rejoining EFTA doesn't necessarily mean being part of the EEA as per Switzerland's example.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
Basically stanton is worrying for no reason
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that's his job.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Good luck with just walking into the UK now - try it at Eurotunnel with no ID on you and let me know how far you get
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You know it makes sense.
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Boris, son travelled to and from France in April without a passport, which he had managed to leave at home . Short form to fill in on his return to the UK. He had a driving licence with him, but I assume they would have done some checks before letting him back in.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Boris wrote: |
| Good luck with just walking into the UK now - try it at Eurotunnel with no ID on you and let me know how far you get |
A French report suggests that around 6000 iillegals have passed into the UK via Calais since January.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Boris, UK borders,controls, Non ID system, City registrations, permission (visa) to work is one of the least policed/checked in Europe. You would of thought being an Island it would be excellent like Australia!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stanton wrote: |
| Boris, UK borders,controls, Non ID system, City registrations, permission (visa) to work is one of the least policed/checked in Europe. You would of thought being an Island it would be excellent like Australia! |
It's ironic that the most common nationality of unlawful status visitors (visa overstay) in Australia are Brits.
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Amongst my friends who champion a UK exit from the EU, most are from my rugby circle and are the same people who seem to dislike the French on principle.
My instinct is that those ex-pats in Spain would suffer the most. I have friends with property there that the local 'junta' are causing all sorts of problems regarding planning laws despite everything having been done legally. If the UK left the EU, then with the Gibraltar rhone rubbing in the Spanish flanks any UK property owner would be fair game.
I agree with others that an EU withdrawal would have much larger negative implications than anyone really thinks. The Daily Mail anti EU and anti French harrumphers should start trying to think things though a bit before they get the jingoistic wagon getting pushed along by Mr and Mrs from Barking.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If people really are ex-pats (rather than those who live abroad but maintain UK residency on paper) then they should be able to get citizenship in their new country and so avoid any problems of a UK departure. I think in Spain you need ten years of residency, but in France it's only five.
This might be a boon for local language schools, and it might also force many of the 'worst' ex-pats to learn something about their new homes as they try to fulfil the qualifying criteria.
Other than admin hassles on things like importing cars or transferring money, I can't see there being any real problems in everyday life; globalisation has taken things beyond the reach of politicians...
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| Yellow Pyranha wrote: |
| ..... I know Theresa May has suggested that those accepting Scottish Citizenship might lose British Citizenship, but I really can't see that happening - that really was one of the sillier comments from the 'No' campaign. |
Um, why can't you see it happening? May is the Home Secretary - it's just possible she is better briefed than you.
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achilles, pretty hard sell to say that the entire Scottish nation being British is no longer conducive to the public good. They'd have to amend the law again.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| achilles, pretty hard sell to say that the entire Scottish nation being British is no longer conducive to the public good. They'd have to amend the law again. |
I don't see it as a question of "selling". I see it as one of the holders of the great offices of State, with a team rather better qualified than you or I to brief her, expressing an opinion.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Normally I'd agree, and I'm not picking a fight, but the law is clear:
Part 1: Deprivation
Deprivation of citizenship under section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 on grounds of fraud, false representation or concealment of material fact or on grounds of conduciveness to the public good
A. General Information
55.2 Introduction
55.2.1 These Instructions explain the application by the United Kingdom Border Agency of the legal power to deprive a person of British citizenship under section 40 of the British Nationality Act 1981 (‘The 1981 Act’).
55.3 The Power to Deprive Citizenship
55.3.1 General Power
55.3.1.1 Under s.40 of the 1981 Act, as amended by the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002 from 1 April 2003 and by the Immigration, Asylum
and Nationality Act 2006 from 16 June 2006, any British citizen, British overseas territories citizen, British Overseas citizen, British National (Overseas), British protected person or British subject may, by Order, be deprived of his or her citizenship or status if the Home Secretary is satisfied that:
a. it would be conducive to the public good to deprive the person of his or her British nationality, and that s/he would not become stateless as a result of the deprivation (ss.40(2) and (4)); or
b. where the person acquired the citizenship or status as a result of his registration or naturalisation on or after 1 January 1983, the registration or naturalisation was obtained by means of:
fraud; or
false representation; or
the concealment of any material fact
(s.40(3)); or
c. where the person acquired the citizenship or status on account of his registration or naturalisation before 1983, the registration or naturalisation was obtained by means of:
fraud; or
false representation; or
the concealment of any material fact
(s.40(6))
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/332049/Chapter_55___07-14_.pdf
Part of https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/chapter-55-deprivation-section-40-and-nullity-nationality-instructions
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| Quote: |
Other than admin hassles on things like importing cars or transferring money, I can't see there being any real problems in everyday life; globalisation has taken things beyond the reach of politicians..
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The farming industry which relies on EU subsidies, may disagree. That wing of the Conservative party has been noticeably quiet in this debate. snowHead
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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albinomountainbadger, when that law was passed, and even the amendments, I doubt if the drafters or parliament remotely considered the break up of the UK. I don't know what advice May has had bearing in mind the changing situation. Maybe new legislation would have to be drafted - there are precedents for those who thought they were Britsh finding out they weren't.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Peter S, if no subsidy to farmers means no rules on how to farm, then the number that go for no subsidy may surprise you. Hill farming is another matter though.
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| HutToHut wrote: |
| if no subsidy to farmers means no rules on how to farm |
Of course it wouldn't. All industries are regulated.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have just checked The Daily Mail and in the event of the UK leaving the EU, expats will be given a choice of nationalities and if they choose;
British - They have to wear a bowler hat (at all times)
German - They have to wear Leiderhosen (at all times)
French - They have to wear a beret, stripey jumper & onions round their necks (only when riding a bike)
Swedish - They have to wear nothing ( in a sauna)
I for one think this makes perfect sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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albinomountainbadger,
| Quote: |
Normally I'd agree, and I'm not picking a fight, but the law is clear:
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The current law is clear, but like so much of current UK law it clearly wasn't intended to cover the issue of Scottish independence. It's entirely possible/likely that Scots would retain UK citizenship without any change. However, a cursory glance at some newly independent nations, or ones that have split, suggests that retaining citizenship of the continuing state is NOT the norm. There simply aren't enough precedents around to form any valid opinion, but I suspect that there could be a substantial body of opinion that suggests Scots would have to make some sort of election between UK and Scottish citizenship.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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foxtrotzulu, thanks for posting that. Very interesting reading.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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In answer to the origional question - I will just have to spend 2 (2 week process) years applying for a French passport.
BUT as others have already pointed out it would be in no one's (almost) interest in leaving the EU. Having lived in a fair few places in the world if we returned to an time of insular countries with lots of import export restrictions and everything being home grown (most stuff that is available being from within the country in terms of goods and food) I'd rather not be in the UK
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my answer to the original question is...
Expat brits will remain expat brits in exactly the same way stantroll is an expat dutchman in a nation outside the EU.
unless some want to go home, in which case they will no longer be expats, or some wish to take up citizenship of their country of residence, in which case they will no longer be expat nor brit.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Idris, I think that many of those who might be tempted to vote UKIP or vote 'exit' in an EU referendum don't really want to leave the EU. What they want is for the EU to get back to its founding principles, an EU that is the servant if its member states, an EU that is democratically accountable. If the EU were to change a little the question of a BREXIT might never arise.
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foxtrotzulu, yes a nice report, I had been thinking the Irish free state was an example to follow and apart from subsequent disagreements noted it does still seem the most similar precedent to ceding a country.
I'm surprised they don't touch on the example of Northern Ireland though, whereby people born in the north can choose British, Irish or both nationalities. Surely a new Scotland could try to negotiate such a thing with the rest of the UK? It's not reciprocal as people in the remainder wouldn't have the right to Scottish nationality of course, but then that's also the case in Eire where people can't claim to be British.
Also curious that they don't mention the situation of the Isle of Man and the Channel Islands, as Crown Dependencies, and the nationality issues involved. Salmond has already cited the IoM as an example of a currency union so it must have been looked at by 'the other side'.
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albinomountainbadger, I suppose the point is that the IoM etc. are Crown dependencies and I'm not sure Salmond would fancy the idea of Scotland being referred to as a 'dependency'. Even if it isn't the same as a colony, it does sound a bit like one!
I can see some hackles being raised by Scotland en masse taking S voting citizenship and retaining UK citizenship too. The key might be in those references to proving 'affinity' or, more likely residence. I suspect the likely outcome is dual for x years until all treaties, EU etc. are settled, then choose.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
foxtrotzulu, yes a nice report, I had been thinking the Irish free state was an example to follow and apart from subsequent disagreements noted it does still seem the most similar precedent to ceding a country.
I'm surprised they don't touch on the example of Northern Ireland though, whereby people born in the north can choose British, Irish or both nationalities. Surely a new Scotland could try to negotiate such a thing with the rest of the UK? It's not reciprocal as people in the remainder wouldn't have the right to Scottish nationality of course, but then that's also the case in Eire where people can't claim to be British.
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Northern Irish people get both Irish and British citizenship (they don't have to 'choose') because the laws of the UK and of Ireland entitle them to citizenship; similarly it would be up to the UK to decide if Scots born post independence would be British citizens. I doubt the HMG would spend the time redrawing nationality law to remove citizenship from Scots and I doubt it would pass as legislation if they tried.
As a possible precedent, the UK did not (I understand) change nationality rules when Ireland seceded, so my parents (born in the Free State) had dual nationality because their parents were British and my siblings (born in the Republic) also have dual nationality because their grandparents were British; had they had Irish born children, they would probably not have been British as it only goes 2 generations.
(And the country is Ireland, or HMG's clumsy 'Republic of Ireland')
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Seems a really virulent debate.
Ultimately people are ex pats - employment and residence laws may change - who knows how. They may or may not have rights to change their residency/domicile (and I have never really understood fully the concept of residence, ordinarily resident and domicile for tax or anything else).
The real issue is how does the host country benefit/do they benefit (foreign remittances, quantum of tax paid, other support to local economy eg to house prices, spend in local economy). If you are an expat can you still qualify for eg index linked british state pension. The economic impact will ultimately determine the future of ex pats and how they are seen and welcomed/discouraged by host nations. I suspect there are some pre-existing treaties outside EU that might also have some impact eg on pensions.
I have sympathy with the Spanish and French who have to provide healthcare to British (no NOT Brits) who do not take nationality and are not taxpayers although as I understand it the French sensibly discriminate against the non-retired who contribute little to their tax revenues, even now.
There is a huge problem of porous borders - ultimately it is about who pays for the services they received in their host (domicile/resident??!!) state- I have no clue how many people cross from France into Switzerland (may be also from Germany, Austria and Italy also into Switzerland each day) and how the tax system works between them let alone between low tax Luxembourg and surrounding states. Inconvenient as it may be I have huge sympathy with the French if people whose businesses have tax domicile/residence?? in France employ their staff on a UK payroll when their services are entirely being performed in France and to employ a French person would cost considerably more in social security costs. Philosophically, we, as a nation (or at least our politicians and press), are happy enough to criticise Starbucks and Amazon for their tax arrangements but are some UK chalet companies better, if it is the case, that they employ their staff on UK taxable payrolls.
I seem to recall that ex pats of any nation work in a myriad of countries around the world and it seems to work fine - of course for some people there will be exceptions and in some countries and places the welcome for an expat may be rather ostentatiously linked to the level of contribution to the local economy versus the cost of hosting them.
So my philosophical consideration - the more you contribute to the local economy as an expat the more likely they will be to make the rules to welcome you if we should leave the EU. Is that any different from Switzerland and Guernsey and Jersey where wealth was the key determinant in the old days and certain properties were reserved only to residents or Australia were a skills based immigration system operates?
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| countryman wrote: |
I have sympathy with the Spanish and French blah blah blah... I have no clue blah blah blah.... I have huge sympathy with the French blah blah blah |
Ok generally it is not good to write a huge post if you have no clue but you can save your sympathy for better causes.
Regarding British residents of Spain and France they have a number of choices for social security / health
1. They work and are part of the SS system which is contributory - don't pay in, you don't get anything out
2. They are retired, pension is paid by the UK, health costs are billed to the UK government
3. They neither work nor are they retired, tough titty, they get nothing unless they take out private health cover
Swiss Frontaliers:
They pay tax in Switzerland, part of this money is sent to the French government
From 2014 they are part of the French SS system, before that they could take out private health insurance.
France forgot to renew a treaty with CH in 2009 to get the Swiss to pay unemployment benefits of frontalier workers. This was worth about 300 million / year to the French goverment in 2009.
So I don't have a great deal of sympathy for the French govt if they can't be arsed to renew a treaty worth 300 million euros.
I agree with your other points.
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