 Poster: A snowHead
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davidof, The French law states you need an equal qualification to teach in France, the test technique and eurotest are just for people wishing to pursue qualifications through the French system.
As
laundryman, states the eurotest is not part of the declaration to work.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| shep wrote: |
Not to mention that BASI's collusion in the status quo works very much in favour of other british interests.... |
shep again, sorry, can't face trawling through that 50 page thread so apologies if you've already explained this… what's behind your interpretation of BASI's support as being "collusion" - the fact that they can charge more to train people for longer, in order to pass more qualifications?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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> Are you aware that the Rhône-Alpes prefecture removed reference to the Eurotest from the English language declaration form late last year?
and your point is?
btw it is not the Rhône-Alpes prefecture that deals with these things but the Direction départementale/regionale de la cohésion sociale. These are the guys who come out with the police to do controls.
> states the eurotest is not part of the declaration to work.
you need either TT or ET to work in France though as either a trainee instructor or fully qualified instructor. When you apply for your carte pro they ask for the pass form.
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davidof, if it's the law, you can find the chapter and verse. I believe the Eurotest is a concept unknown to French law, but I cannot prove a negative.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| davidof wrote: |
The mountain bike guide "crackdown" dates back nearly a decade. The French require you to be an IML with a mountain bike option to lead mountain bike groups around the mountain. |
I am an aspirant IML for this exact reason, however there are still companies that operate in France without IML's under the same pretence as Simon Butler, i.e, they have a european recognised quali that should under EU law be recognised, but France, being France has to add in extra parts.
there is a company i will be doing stuff with this summer who is like that and is battling it at EU level. So far where they are based they have not caused any trouble so they get away with it.
SB has obviously caused trouble in the courts, and each year he gets issues with the police because of that. Either get the highest most quali and be fully legal, or don't cause trouble, the French don't like that.
AND at the end of the day, as much as i love France, if your English you will get hassled for something. I'm driving to the airport several times tomorrow, will i get stopped and questioned? quite possibly.
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The points about pricing are pretty irrelevant. Some people chip on about it without providing a shred of evidence. Even when there are no British ski schools in the area the ESF is still cheap - in our area probably because there's another French school providing competition.
People have a point about French protectionism but AFAIK they have absolutely none about prices - which schools in the main European ski countries provide cheaper lessons (bearing in mind that in France they do vary a bit between resorts and are more expensive in school holiday periods)?
Certainly restricting supply will keep prices high; they know all about that in the Arlberg, I understand? 
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miranda having bailed on BASI a long time ago I'm not the best informed person on here to explain, and was going to refer you back to the "ESF take UK tour ops to court over alleged illegal ski guiding" and "eurotest" (bend ze knees) threads. But I realise it's not cricket for me to not expand on my statement when asked, so here's my opinion:
Some BASI instructors who already had the highest qualification when the "equivalence (including speed test)" was introduced in the late 80s were put forward to ESF by the BASI board and given their equivalence. No problem with that, they deserved it and good luck to them. According to SB some (himself included) with the highest qualification who had already rocked the boat at BASI were not put forward, which if true is not fair.
Others who were around at the same time but did not qualify were "gifted" their equivalence as a "goodwill gesture" whilst negotiating on behalf of the members with the ESF and others over the implementation of the equivalence. Since the result of the negotiations were BASI's acceptance of the speed-test (later Eurotest) being imposed on it's members (possibly contrary to EU law) the accusation that ESF "bought" the negotiators' compliance with the "free" equivalences has often been made.
Whether this is true or not cannot be proven since despite the association being owned by it's members details of the negotiations have never been released by the board. Anyway, there is a perception that a group of those senior BASI members qualified (from both categories above) to work in france, have been able to steer BASI policy in a "pull the ladder up behind you" direction ever since. This also cannot be proven but BASI have never challenged the equivalence, never added their support to any actions brought by individuals, and consistently thrown renegade members such as SB under the bus. BASI has joined the french-led group of nations who support the eurotest, rather than the group which opposes it.
In the mean time and until the running of the equivalence was forced by the EU to be fair to foreigners, a period of say 15 years, those original equivalence holders have been able to have successful and protected careers teaching and running ski schools in france. Some have innocently played the cards they were dealt, others have helped to stack the pack. Even now a new generation of brit instructors are making it through the speed test, the "competition" is still limited and they have a 15 year handicap in establishing themselves.
So in a nutshell yes, the status quo has offered a few brits and british organisations a lucrative income stream providing training for level 4 and the eurotest, protecting their careers as teachers and ski school owners, all the expense of their lower level membership and to the detriment of the british skiing public.
No doubt there are two sides to the story, and someone will be along to accuse me of being wrong/conspiracy theories/sour grapes etc. But since you asked, that's what I believe.
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| miranda wrote: |
| shep wrote: |
Not to mention that BASI's collusion in the status quo works very much in favour of other british interests.... |
shep again, sorry, can't face trawling through that 50 page thread so apologies if you've already explained this… what's behind your interpretation of BASI's support as being "collusion" - the fact that they can charge more to train people for longer, in order to pass more qualifications? |
As a lay punter my interpretation is that BASI stiched together a deal with the French that grandfathered a number of their "senior" members who had not necessarily passed the Eurotest into full ISTD, while basically agreeing to holding the French line against newer aspirants. Those who are above the line (not necessarily without Eurotests) can conveniently run British ski schools in France without the threat of mass entrants from underqualified junior BASI members.
from what I see of BASI politics (which get posted publically here) it looks like an organisation where all members are definitely not equal and "rank2 is important in having your interests served.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| davidof, if it's the law, you can find the chapter and verse. I believe the Eurotest is a concept unknown to French law, but I cannot prove a negative. |
http://www.ec-oe.eu/fileadmin/user_upload/Publications/Ski_instructors_in_France/Loisirs_Actifs_Europe__en_.pdf cites the legislation involved, which (with exemptions) requires those professionally teaching sport to hold a recognised qualification. What constitutes such a qualification would be an administrative rather than a legal matter. It's a good background read for those interested in this subject.
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shep, thanks for replying. Wow. Ok. So senior officials from BASI adopting exactly the same protectionist stance as senior officials from ESF.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 21-02-14 12:24; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, This came up at the EGM in Morzine last month and Simon presented the letter you refer to... it was posted on the Eurotest thread and makes interesting reading http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=50772&start=1080#2122328
Basically the then chairman did a deal so that snowboard L3's, Old Grade 1's and the people who passed their Eurotest at the disputed Garmisch test were granted their ISTD's IN EXCHANGE for BASI forgoing the rights for non ISTD members in France.
========= GOOGLE Translation =========
Memorandum of Understanding concerning the teaching of snowboarding
Between the undersigned :
National Union of French Ski Instructors
Headquartered its located at: 6 Mitaillères aisle , 38246 Meylan, whose statutes were deposited
Mairie de Meylan March 10, 1978 , No. 9 ,
Represented by Mr Gilles Chabert , President
below designated SNMSF ,
and
The British Association of Snowsports Instructors
Glenmore , Aviemore , Inverness -shire . Scotland PH22 1QU GB
Represented by Mr Andrew Lockerbie , Director ,
described below BASI
We note at the outset that this agreement concerns only the diplomas ISTD ( Veterans
BASI 1) as the only qualification recognized at European level because of its curriculum
training.
That being duly noted, the parties have agreed :
1 BASI :
1 . BASI agrees not to grant any degree / qualification in ISTD level (former
BASI 1) that is specific to snowboarding. BASI adopts the training system with
integration within modules ISTD other disciplines snow sports
including snowboarding, for its monitors ISTD (former BASI 1).
2 . BASI withdraw its complaint at the European Commission, and defends the principle
sports instructors multidiscipline snow , skiing remains the discipline
reference .
BASI also agrees not to encourage or support any initiative
individual with the EEC.
BASI agrees to recognize, at European level , no other qualification than
ISTD .
2 In return France agrees :
1 . Validate the Euro test Garmisch for 22 members of BASI
2 . To grant compliance with current snowboard instructors (40-45 people) .
These will be fully recognized as holders of the ISTD without having to spend
Additional tests . This measure will be a specific agreement based on a
exhaustive nominal list for people above who have obtained
graduate before May 10, 2006 . This list will be submitted by BASI .
3 In the future :
Snowboarders who meet criteria similar to those of French citizens competitors
high level , as defined in France as the " Elite athletes " can be
integrated on a case by case basis and BASI exams fit into the same criteria as
those required in the French education system .
To do this, BASI submit candidates each year to the " Permanent Section downhill skiing
Superior Sports Council Mountain " review and validation without discrimination
against French citizens.
These candidates must meet the same criteria as those required by French citizens.
This agreement is valid only in its entirety.
In two originals in Satolas 27 March 2006 copies
Signed by Gilles Chabert and Andrew Lockerbie .
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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dogwatch, are these laws?
The last paragraph states,
The position of the SNMSF is thus perfectly unbearable and perfectly discriminatory against all
other Europeans in particular in consideration of the dispensations the French dispose of, in front of
the rules that they try to impose on the Europeans! (Syndicat National des Moniteurs du Ski Français (SNMSF)).
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skimottaret,
I must read the transcript of the EGM, only heard second-hand about meeting.
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You know it makes sense.
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what a very murky tale.....
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Dunk wrote: |
| are these laws? |
No.
Although BASI & the French came to an understanding this has no legal weight.
The snowboarders case came before the Court of the Advocate General, Sharpston, in 2009 and his primary remark stated
| Quote: |
Both the withdrawal of BASI’s complaint and the Brussels agreement are irrelevant to the
Court’s ruling in the present proceedings. The provisions of national law which form the basis of the
Commission’s action remain unchanged and, as the Commission correctly notes, an agreement
between various skiing associations has no effect on the national legislation at issue |
The Advocate General found
| Quote: |
Accordingly, I propose that the Court should:
– declare that, by refusing to permit snowboard instructors qualified in Germany and the United
Kingdom to teach snowboarding in France and by not referring, in the amended decree of 4
May 1995, to snowboard instructor qualifications acquired in other Member States, the
French Republic has failed to fulfil its obligations under Articles 39, 43 and 49 EC and under
Article 6(a) of Council Directive 92/51/EEC of 18 June 1992 on a second general system for
the recognition of professional education and training to supplement Directive 89/48/EEC |
This ruling has not been overturned.
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Poster: A snowHead
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So why isn't there the same uproar around other Alpine countries where there are far fewer British instructors, as far as I am aware?
Besides, given how Sochi has demonstrated the gulf in quality between British skiing and those from alpine countries I would choose a 'native' instructor over a British one all day long.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| emwmarine wrote: |
| Besides, given how Sochi has demonstrated the gulf in quality between British skiing and those from alpine countries I would choose a 'native' instructor over a British one all day long. |
 Idiotic comment of the day goes to...
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 21-02-14 12:50; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Is "the French problem" the fact they make it harder to work as a trainee (i.e. having not passed the Eurotest) than other Eurotest nations (which are Italy, Austria, Germany)?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Dunk wrote: |
| dogwatch, are these laws? |
The laws are discussed e.g. on page 2 of the document whose address I posted. Yes they are laws. I've previously commented that how the Eurotest relates to those laws is an administrative matter. Some here seem to be saying that if there isn't a French law that says "Eurotest needed to teach skiing", there's no legal requirement. That isn't the case. Whether such administrative decisions are compatible with EU law on free movement of labour and provision of services is a separate question. I suspect that given that most European snowsports professional bodies have lined up behind the Eurotest, it is improbable that a court would find it a disproportionate requirement.
The agreements BASI has struck are contracts. Contracts are binding but they aren't laws.
FWIW (which is nothing) I think the Eurotest as a requirement to teach snow-bunnies to snow-plough is nonsense on stilts and protectionist in intent and effect.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Fri 21-02-14 13:05; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| emwmarine wrote: |
Only if you are a British Ski instructor.  |
Perhaps, although not everyone will agree. But I'm sure you'll continue to keep trotting out the same line, even when it's of no relevance to the discussion.
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rob@rar, indeed, given that most Alpine ski instructors aren't ex-Olympic skiiers emwmarine's point makes literally no sense in addition to being irrelevant - the only thing that matters to you, as a punter, is that they are a good teacher, not whether they come from a country which has lots of Olympic golds.
It'd be like insisting your kids' A-Level Physics teacher had won the Nobel prize for physics or something equally irrelevant.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| davidof, if it's the law, you can find the chapter and verse. I believe the Eurotest is a concept unknown to French law, but I cannot prove a negative. |
The Eurotest is mentioned in both the French Code du Travail and Code du Sport. France, Austria etc were given a derogation by the EU to impose the test on Ski Instructors from other EU countries. If BASI instructors want to work as trainees in France they need at least the TT, as French trainees do. This is quite a hurdle in itself.
If anyone can show evidence of instructors getting their Carte Pro without these speed tests I'm sure everyone would be interested (excepting people with ancient rights, FIS points or other exceptions).
I've not followed all the many SB court cases but the last one I looked at was decided in the lowest level of court in SB's favour wrt to the Eurotest requirement but this was never appealed. The prosecution failed to show why the Eurotest should be necessary for equivalence and the case was based on old legislation. Only an appeal to a higher court would provide any meaningful case law, preferably to the French Supreme or European Court Level and then it would have to be under current legislation. Again if anyone can post the details of any significant developments I'm sure snowheads would be interested. (court transcript, dates of cases etc).
The problem for SB if the French don't appeal the cases then any victory he gets will not form any meaningful case law. The French can then continue prosecuting him ad infinitum, as indeed they do. (as far as I can ascertain). Without support from BASI it doesn't seem to be going anywhere. The BASI and other associations would have to pressure the EU to drop the derogation, instead things seem to be going the other way under Michel Barnier.
As others have said, BASI seem quite happy with this situation as it means the people running the organization can work as ski instructors in the lucrative French market without too much competition and make lots of money training hopefuls through the BASI track. I have no idea if those are their real motivations but it appears a reasonable conclusion.
As an aside 10% of working ESF instructors are over 80 and 50% are aged over 70! So much for early French retirement.
Last edited by After all it is free on Fri 21-02-14 13:18; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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emwmarine, you don't need to be a good racer to be a good teacher. How many driving instructors race F1?
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Sorry to be cynical but do you think SB gets such grief because he offers a very good quality of holiday and some instruction as part of the package. His chalets are good standard and his instructors are excellent, they never push but slowly guide to improvement and for the whizz kids they get to ski fast around the mountain in a small group of like minded individuals. It all adds of up a near perfect holiday. Dream on Megeve, you need to sort out your own offerings and try and compete on equal terms.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FFIRMIN, yeah, Megeve is a horrible place with crappy apartment blocks. Think 60s Soviet Union.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| emwmarine wrote: |
| Besides, given how Sochi has demonstrated the gulf in quality between British skiing and those from alpine countries I would choose a 'native' instructor over a British one all day long. |
Idiotic comment of the day goes to... |
Gotta be a troll. We know emwmarine has an appt in Val Thorens but obviously exposure to altitude & gauloises has developed the ESF braincell mutation that equates race success with teaching ability.
BTW some of those Frencie skicrossers looked pretty unsafe - the bronze guy crossed the line on his face - truly La Belle Technique
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| FFIRMIN wrote: |
| Sorry to be cynical but do you think SB gets such grief because he offers ... |
I suspect he gets grief because he is an easy and highly visible target and has pissed off the French authorities. I doubt they care whether he is good or bad. Even where he has some victories they almost always have some charges that stick (employment law etc) so are probably content to keep hassling him.
but that is just my 2cents worth.
I mean, you can imagine the conversation at the Gendarmerie:-
Captain: "not much happening today boys"?
Staff: "no slow day".
Captain: "hmmm take a trip up to Megeve and shake down that English bloke with the Chalet business and don't forget to check his car, you know, tires, lights, insurance documents. Oh while you are up there measure the height of his hedge to make sure it is below the regulation 2 meters, that kind of thing".
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^
No. Read more carefully.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Sorry, I know I'm always really slow-witted but…
| davidof wrote: |
The Eurotest is mentioned in both the French Code du Travail and Code du Sport. France, Austria etc were given a derogation by the EU to impose the test on Ski Instructors from other EU countries. If BASI instructors want to work as trainees in France they need at least the TT, as French trainees do. This is quite a hurdle in itself.
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So it's the Technical Test for trainees in France - rather than the Eurotest for full qualification - that explains why people are always complaining about French protectionism for ski instructors but never mention the other Eurotest nations such as Germany, Austria and Italy? The TT (applied to both nationals and non-nationals) is what makes it harder to work as a ski instructor in France and that's what is peeing off potential ski instructors who would rather work in France than in the other countries?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| miranda wrote: |
| shep, thanks for replying. Wow. Ok. So senior officials from BASI adopting exactly the same protectionist stance as senior officials from ESF. |
Thanks, hope that helped. But not quite the same motivation imho, in so far as the ESF royalty are acting in the percieved interests of their broader membership, wheras the BASI version is much more selfish and contrary to the interests of 90% of their members.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| miranda wrote: |
Sorry, I know I'm always really slow-witted but…
| davidof wrote: |
The Eurotest is mentioned in both the French Code du Travail and Code du Sport. France, Austria etc were given a derogation by the EU to impose the test on Ski Instructors from other EU countries. If BASI instructors want to work as trainees in France they need at least the TT, as French trainees do. This is quite a hurdle in itself.
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So it's the Technical Test for trainees in France - rather than the Eurotest for full qualification - that explains why people are always complaining about French protectionism for ski instructors but never mention the other Eurotest nations such as Germany, Austria and Italy? The TT (applied to both nationals and non-nationals) is what makes it harder to work as a ski instructor in France and that's what is peeing off potential ski instructors who would rather work in France than in the other countries? |
People would rather work in France for various reasons - perhaps because they already have property there or speak the language but mainly because it is the largest market for British skiers and is established as one of the few countries in the world where instructors can make a living wage (let's set aside "marketing machines" like Warren Smith etc for simplification purposes).
France has a starter barrier to entry in the TT then strict rules about the time a traineee has before they can pass full ISTD or they are out. ESF pay structure is heavily biased toward the ISTDs too (don't know about others). France then restrict where trainees can work to "approved" schools, which in practice in a lot of places means the ESF, and keep adjusting the rules to e.g lock out British owned "training" schools on grounds of having insufficent full certs. So far from a free labour market for trainees its heavily biased in favour of the ESF. Some Brits including some Snowheads work very successfully for the ESF but you can see it might not be for everyone, dependent as it is on the attitude of the local director and colleagues.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
one of the few countries in the world where instructors can make a living wage
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I know we've had this conversation before but I can't understand why, if it's true, that is the case. I'm also not sure it is the case; the French instructors I know all work as something else in the summer and sometimes in the winter as well - builders, farmers, motor cycle instructors, cleaners, high mountain guides, for example.
Given that French ski lessons cost no more (often considerably less) than in other countries then if French instructors make a living wage, then
EITHER: ski schools in other countries are exploiting their instructors (in which case why don't the instructors get themselves organised?) OR
ski instructors in other countries expect a higher standard of living than French ones.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
EITHER: ski schools in other countries are exploiting their instructors (in which case why don't the instructors get themselves organised?) OR
ski instructors in other countries expect a higher standard of living than French ones. |
Possibly both judging by a current thread on epic re tipping of instructors. Snapshot summary:
We can't be be arsed organising or striking against our cheapskate employers who pay us minimum wage, but the paying punter who is already getting gouged on lesson price (possibly 10 x our labour rate) is rich enough to kick in an extra 20% tip on the full lesson price to triple our wages and pay our mortgage. Therefore they should tip.
Yeah we look like and pretend to be professionals but really you should treat us like unskilled shoeshine boys.
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| Quote: |
France has a starter barrier to entry in the TT then strict rules about the time a traineee has before they can pass full ISTD or they are out. ESF pay structure is heavily biased toward the ISTDs too (don't know about others). France then restrict where trainees can work to "approved" schools
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To an outsider that bit seems eminently sensible.
What doesn't seem sensible is what it takes to pass the Eurotest (and maybe the TT although I don't know what this entails) in order to gain ISTD as this excludes people who would be great instructors but may not be great racers or young enough to ski that fast.
IMO there is nothing wrong with setting high standards to maintain the quality and ability of those in the profession, but those standards should be accurately reflect what would make someone expert/high quality in their field, not be an arbitary target that is easy to achive for a certain group but impossible for others.
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the ski instructors i know spend all summer getting stoned down the skatepark!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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eddiethebus, I assume they don't have spouses, kids and mortgages to take care of then?
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| Flet©h wrote: |
| Quote: |
France has a starter barrier to entry in the TT then strict rules about the time a traineee has before they can pass full ISTD or they are out. ESF pay structure is heavily biased toward the ISTDs too (don't know about others). France then restrict where trainees can work to "approved" schools
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To an outsider that bit seems eminently sensible.
What doesn't seem sensible is what it takes to pass the Eurotest (and maybe the TT although I don't know what this entails) in order to gain ISTD as this excludes people who would be great instructors but may not be great racers or young enough to ski that fast.
IMO there is nothing wrong with setting high standards to maintain the quality and ability of those in the profession, but those standards should be accurately reflect what would make someone expert/high quality in their field, not be an arbitary target that is easy to achive for a certain group but impossible for others. |
Yep - I think the flaw in the system is the restriction on approved schools as much as anything. Plus of cours ethe rationale for Eurotest for "safety reasons" is patent bollox. Instructors should be recerted on it say every 3 years if there were any merit in that justification.
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FAQ
