 Poster: A snowHead
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Several English ski instructors have been detained and told not to do any more ski instructing or risk a year in jail. This is my second time in as many holidays that have been disrupted by the French police who have stopped instructors belonging to Simon Butler from teaching in Megeve. The instructors have been made to jump through hoops to get the correct documentation to allow them to instruct. Despite this (approved by the appropriate Court) the local Prefecture has taken it upon themselves to harass Simon and his team in what seems like a personal vendetta to try and make life as difficult as possible for him and ruin the skiing holidays of a large number of British holiday makers like myself who travel regularly to Megeve to be taught by Simon and his instructors. Makes me want to avoid skiing in France
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting first post, you wouldn't happen to be Simon would you?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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No. I am one of his guests. Simon has only just been released from an overnight detention in the local gendarmerie! Even some of the local gendarmes are unhappy about what they are being asked to do (allegedly).
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I may have missed this somewhere, but why does Simon Butler attract so much unwanted attention from the French authorities when many other British ski schools are working in other areas of the Alps unhindered?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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we saw two Gendarmes in full uniform skiing in La Plagne yesterday, never seen that before, we wondered if they were after instructors or guides as they were in an area served by roads so could have easily driven around.
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Long story but boils down to Simon winning a ruling against the French to allow instructors to teach without having to have the speed test first. ESF didn't like it.
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When I was instructing back in the 90's there were the same issues - seems nothing changes.
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Hmm interesting timing - one might almost think the wholly coincidental timing were influenced by peak week considerations and timed to cause maximum disruption to SBS and his guests. Of course justice is blind to such politicisation.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I was told last month in L2A that checks always take place in February, probably the same across France.
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Similiar happening here currently with Swiss ski instructors taking clients into France. The Portes du Soleil is Franco- Swiss and ESF have taken umbrage at Swiss teaching on their side. Ironically they teach on Swiss side too. http://www.rts.ch/g/NZa7 one ESS teacher was stopped by gendarmes last week.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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AsterixTG, happened in the late 80s as well as I was rounded up along with all the other "foreign" instructors in Serre Chevalier. We had to leave our clients on the hill, luckily mine were beginners so I just handed them over to the teachers and said don't let them leave the beginner area. I stopped teaching in France after that incident.
Seems to happen in years where the French public perceive that the snow is not good, so cancel their skiing holidays. ESF have fewer clients and so it goes! When we tried to get ESF instructors to take our groups they didn't have any - we were given 2 who were in retirement and 3 Stagiaires.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just a quick point on this..... the gendarmes are spotted regularly in the EK doing 'Controlles' (checking paperwork)..... it does often happen during peak season when there are more like to be be people teaching on the 'black' so to speak! We have to carry our paperwork on us all the time in case we are stopped and asked for our Carte Pro etc.... it has happened several times over the years to me / us (as a school) and will continue to do so no doubt! As far as I am aware non ESF schools are not being targeted or anything! Earlier in the season I reported the gendarmes were also doing checks on people going / returning from off piste (guides and instructed groups) to check for correct safety equipment being carried. As instructors we just know that the DDJS and the Gendarmes have the authority to check on proper qualifications for people working on public land.
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Controls are all well and good when it is used to ensure safety but when it is used to target instructors who have all the necessary licences and documentation but still prevent them from teaching is harassment and abuse.
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You know it makes sense.
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| summer wrote: |
| Similiar happening here currently with Swiss ski instructors taking clients into France. The Portes du Soleil is Franco- Swiss and ESF have taken umbrage at Swiss teaching on their side. Ironically they teach on Swiss side too. http://www.rts.ch/g/NZa7 one ESS teacher was stopped by gendarmes last week. |
How tragic, in 28 seasons here I've never seen this. The current generation of ESF instructors should be ashamed of themselves, their parents fought very hard to break down prejudices to get the PdS established; now they're doing their best to destroy it. A sad day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Samerberg Sue, We were Army instructors and while we were wearing the Joint Services uniforms, we weren't actually working as a commercial concern - we were bringing on guys to pass their JSDSI & BASI 3 (the old system) and race coaching.
We just told them to 'do one' and take it up with our senior bods if they wanted to take it further.
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Poster: A snowHead
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We just told them to 'do one' and take it up with our senior bods if they wanted to take it further.
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I expect being army chaps you were bigger than they were 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| AsterixTG wrote: |
Samerberg Sue, We were Army instructors and while we were wearing the Joint Services uniforms, we weren't actually working as a commercial concern - we were bringing on guys to pass their JSDSI & BASI 3 (the old system) and race coaching.
We just told them to 'do one' and take it up with our senior bods if they wanted to take it further. |
I may be wrong, but I thought someone had posted in a thread some time ago that (as France is formally part of NATO) NATO armed forces were allowed to conduct their own ski training of their personnel on the French slopes without having to meet the French qualification requirements for commercial ski instructors?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You're probably right and was the reason why they didn't bother us after they were told who we were.
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Hells Bells question above is still a good one. The response from the OP (that it happened because SB won his legal argument) is not exactly clear.
We've not heard any other reports of British ski instructors being arrested, only Simon Butler's people in Megeve. It sounds more like some kind of local vendetta than a big national policy.
Steve Angus seems to think that British instructors in Val D'Isere (where there are loads) get regularly checked along with all the others and its no big deal if you carry your papers with you. We have rehearsed endlessly the arguments for and against the French approach to qualifications so it would be good if this thread could focus on what's happening in Megeve.
Do BASS Megeve have the same problems?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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summer, could your example also not simply be a poorly directed gendarme?
((I note also that although RTS tried to imply that it was associated with the recent referendum on free EU movement, it happened last month, i.e. before the referendum  ))
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(as France is formally part of NATO)
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Since 2009
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| pam w wrote: |
Do BASS Megeve have the same problems? |
Not as far as I'm aware having asked the Director of Bass Megeve a couple of weeks ago when I had a (very good) lesson with him. He said BASS Megeve got on pretty well with the ESF too - apparently there are 300 or so instructors in the area, so you're always going to get a few individuals who are difficult in a group that size but, on the whole, no problems. I think the difference is that they are all fully qualified by French standards. I think Simon Butler won a court case to say that his instructors didn't need to meet the full French standard as their qualifications should be sufficient to work in Europe or something, and then they shifted the goalposts again (I think maybe it was to do with the number of fully qualified instructors v stagieres or something like that). I think Laundryman is his mate so I'm sure will be able to put the record straight if that's nonsense.
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I'm not sure I understand the background to the Simon Butler situation.
I remember reading an article on the BBC website (here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-22029309) where it was stated he doesn't have the Euro Test ... so it would be interesting to understand how he keeps going.
From everything I understand about the French system the rules seemed pretty clear-cut 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think Simon Butler won a court case to say that his instructors didn't need to meet the full French standard
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Interesting. You'd have thought this would have opened the flood-gates to instructors without full 'equivalence' (I think that's what they call it) to start working in France.
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abj, I think the argument was that they already had full equivalence and didn't need to do the extra eurotest or whatever - someone help me out though as I don't really know what I'm talking about and can't face digging out that 50 page thread on the subject and trawling through it.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The latest court battle in this case has already been set for some time in April. From documentation I've seen, I think it quite likely that the Rhônes-Alpes prefecture will be shown not to have applied French law correctly. I think it's also fairly clear from their hasty replacement late last year of the declaration form for foreigners, which has now been brought into line with that for French people (with no mention of the Eurotest, for example), that they're on the hop. That would be the third time in the past 15 years that Simon Butler will have won cases (essentially the same case) brought by the French authorities. Plus ça change…
Given that all of this is due in court very soon, I see this week's arrests as pure vindictiveness, and possibly an attempt to put SBS out of business before a potentially unfavourable ruling for the authorities.
Whatever the outcome of the court case, I think the ESF-led campaign against SBS has essentially worked. Simon may be dogged enough to stand and fight over decades, but who else would follow his (otherwise very successful) business model in France?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Sorry to hear that - it's very sad and why we didn't go to France this year as we miss the guiding.
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| abj wrote: |
| From everything I understand about the French system the rules seemed pretty clear-cut |
But are the rules/procedures that the regional authorities operate (including the relevant Ministry and the local police) in compliance with French law? I don't think anything is clear cut at the moment.
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You know it makes sense.
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Whatever the outcome of the court case, I think the ESF-led campaign against SBS has essentially worked.
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Is that really correct? From this, it seems as though, albeit at a glacial tempo, he's winning:
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I think it quite likely that the Rhônes-Alpes prefecture will be shown not to have applied French law correctly. I think it's also fairly clear from their hasty replacement late last year of the declaration form for foreigners, which has now been brought into line with that for French people (with no mention of the Eurotest, for example), that they're on the hop.
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Where does SB think the local "vindictiveness" stems from? Sounds very much ad hominem.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Simon is a top-level ISTD instructor. He hasn't needed to pass the Eurotest for that badge, because he achieved the top-level status (then BASI 1) a long time before the Eurotest was invented. As it happens, he is the top British competitor on the FIS Masters circuit, so his racing skills are not in doubt. Some of Simon's instructors have lower level BASI qualifications, such as Alex Casey, mentioned in the BBC article. This is the point of contention, because the ESF allows people to teach (stagiaires, or trainees) without the ISTD qualification and the law would appear to allow that generally.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
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Whatever the outcome of the court case, I think the ESF-led campaign against SBS has essentially worked.
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Is that really correct? From this, it seems as though, albeit at a glacial tempo, he's winning:
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I think it quite likely that the Rhônes-Alpes prefecture will be shown not to have applied French law correctly. I think it's also fairly clear from their hasty replacement late last year of the declaration form for foreigners, which has now been brought into line with that for French people (with no mention of the Eurotest, for example), that they're on the hop.
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Where does SB think the local "vindictiveness" stems from? Sounds very much ad hominem. |
SBS is winning his battle, albeit at great cost; the wider war is to prevent his business model being replicated on a wider scale (I believe).
The statement (which was by me, not Simon) absolutely is ad hominem. This is a fight, concerning people, some of whom are unscrupulous; some very local, some not so much.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I don't know SB or give him racing tips or coaching (unlike laundryman) but my sympathy is very much with him here. Sensible use of police time given a pending court date would not be to spend it on harassment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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give him racing tips or coaching (unlike laundryman)
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That was my joke by the way. 
It was fun trying to hang onto his coat tails on several runs down a Super-G course though!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yeh I omitted the smiley - thought it was implicit
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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As the ESF is not - despite its rather formal name - an organ of the French state, why are the gendarmes/legal system so pro them? ESF have non-French instructors too.
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laundryman, gotcha. Makes more sense now.
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James the Last, The head of ESF and the minister for sport are drinking buddies. The minister has a track record of letting ESF frame the legislation, and even taking ESFs side against the other french ski school (ESI) in any dispute.
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ESF have non-French instructors too
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and there are plenty of French instructors outside the ESF. Which perhaps wasn't the case, 20 years ago? And the number of British ski schools in France has burgeoned - not surprising, perhaps, that the ESF is getting desperate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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James the Last, because they are a French organisation probably, maybe not part of the French state but almost as established, don't forget when French farmers stopped meat from British farms from being imported, pulling it out of trucks and destroying it whilst the French police stood and watched.
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| Steve Angus wrote: |
| Earlier in the season I reported the gendarmes were also doing checks on people going / returning from off piste (guides and instructed groups) to check for correct safety equipment being carried. |
What business is this of the gendarmes? As far as I know it's not illegal to choose not to carry .
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