 Poster: A snowHead
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Kel, bug. That didn't last long. You deserve your pint for helping bring some levity to this thread. (And it really is 'each to his own' - and wouldn't life be boring if we were all the same?)
Are you on any bash? I'm not (yet)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jirac18, I generally favor the opinion of the majority, taking a few lessons initially to a point you can safely control your speed & direction. This is the majorities opinion because that's how we learned to ski, the minority who learnt differently only knock this and as you say get itchy about this opinion, which is fair enough.
We rarely get insight into how the minority teach themselves, only that they did, there will be others reading this thread thinking "maybe I could teach myself", for the benefit of these people and us majority, it may be beneficial to sometimes hear how the minority actually did it from the moment of putting skis on for the first time etc. As it may help them to do it safely, and us to stop knocking it!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Some of my friends I ski with have not had a lot of lessons. They are naturally talented, can get down most things and are not a danger to others but are a complete nightmare to ski with as they are all over the place. I have done the teach myself to "ski" thing and then lessons. I don't think I was a danger to others although I did break a leg and damage both knees. I was going down hill on a pair of skis but not really skiing. Personally, I very much regret not taking lessons from the start as apart of anything else it is costing a fortune to get rid of all the bad habits. I'm not only safer but skiing is a lot more fun and I've found that a lot more people are happy to go skiing me rather than steering clear.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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gatecrasher, You want to try some of my kit? Without a grounding in the fundamentals and relatively regular updating I could not ride some of it. I plan on stepping backwards to 30's equipment for personal experimentation and perhaps a book, but without a solid grounding in taught fundamentals I'd have no basis in comparison.
Life is one long learning experience . . . getting off that path just demonstrates a paucity of values, including to oneself . . . and there, self declared, sits jirac18
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Kel, one deserved pint is yours you sad person. From where would you like to collect it? Are you booked on any bash?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Masque, I will be looking forward to the video blog! 
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| Quote: |
We rarely get insight into how the minority teach themselves, only that they did, there will be others reading this thread thinking "maybe I could teach myself", for the benefit of these people and us majority, it may be beneficial to sometimes hear how the minority actually did it from the moment of putting skis on for the first time etc. As it may help them to do it safely, and us to stop knocking it!
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Joubert wrote a book about teaching yourself without an Instructor "Skiing an Art... a Technique", but if you stand at the bottom of a piste, say OK in la daille about 4.30 you will be able to tell the self taught from those that had lots of lessons, board or ski. But hey it does not really matter to those that do not think that skiing is a poseurs sport and do not care that everybody is nudging each other saying look at that t+t!
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Cynic, When skiing was a (recreational) sport for a people with a 'disposable' income above their need to survive . . . it was possible to develop an individual technique on near deserted, unpisted hills. Today that opportunity no longer exists and nor is safe as so many sad examples demonstrate. Today's equipment is both forgiving and capable of extreme violence, most punter equipment has Jekyl and Hyde personalities. We have to be instructed in its use . . . like any tool that has the ability to kill both us and onlookers.
gatecrasher, could be interesting . . . thinking of BASI gap course at the same time . . . so much potential 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Masque, You should be beyond the piste on deserted off-piste with your down hill christiana and kick turns shunning the pistes of the populia
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Cynic, what's a turn? have you seen me on a hill? 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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jirac18,
The first 3 years I skied I didn't have lessons, not because I didn't want them but as a kid from a non-Skiing family I didn't have the money for them. I picked up lots of bad habits (I'm just talking about the skiing ones here). They took a long time to get rid of.
You sound like one of those lucky people who can pickup skills from watching others. But why don't you try out some lessons? If you still feel they aren't worthwhile after then fair enough. You might find them a useful experience and an opportunity to add to your skills from another source.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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With an indoor ski dome the space is very limited and unguided missiles (the non-trained on skis) certainly have the potential to cause accidents. There is a good reason why the minimum standard is to be able to perform 'linked-turns' (or to be with an instructor learning these) to use the main slope and that is purely down to SAFETY. However, this makes the slopes very limited to 'those with cash' as indoor lessons costs the proverbial 'arm and leg'. They aren't places you can suddenly decide to take a friend to if they can't ski - a factor that is a shame when you have kids with friends who would like to go, but I think the concept is sound.
However, there is no similar ability factor applied to real moun stain skiing, i.e something that should be able to achieve before you can leave the nursery slopes. Hence we get situations where 'mates' shove people on snowblades down red-runs to teach them to ski  Perhaps it is possible to learn to get safely down an easy run without lessons, but maybe you shouldn't be sold a full lift pass unless you have a ticket that says you can do linked turns - even if this has to be issued by someone watching the nursery slopes. This conversation has been done before, a 'ticket to slide' isn't practical and so we are left with dealing with those that won't have lessons. Ultimately they might be able to make slow and safe passage down a slope (esp. those who are naturally cautious to begin with), but before that stage is reached there is a good chance that some will be a danger to themselves and others (possibly the same breed as the one with the mates on the snowblades, though in our case, even he has now recognised that he would benefit from lessons). However, I don't think there is any way around it unless lessons and a ticket to slide is made compulsory and that will go down like a lead ballon.
The other interesting question is at what level should lessons be taken, esp. once the initial ability to complete a linked turn has been learned. In my own case I had countless lessons and didn't move off a nursery slope snowploughing with an instructor, and it did take someone dragging me around a mountain before I gained sufficient confidence to actually get something out of a lesson.
I don't think there is an answer to the whole issue, or anyway of forcing lessons onto people. It is another 'helmet' and the discussions will run and run IMO
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Megamum,
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| At what level should lessons be taken? |
Ummmm . . . Aren't you the one heading for the 'Intro to bumps clinic?'
You know as well as I that we should never stop learning and we will always have more to learn. That doesn't mean that you need to take lessons on every trip, heaven forfend!  But it does mean that we have a responsibility to both ourselves and others to make ourselves as safe and competent on the hill as possible. No, that will not eliminate accidents but it will reduce the frequency.
Reading that jirac18 knows his wife and kids need to take formal lessons . . . fall, tree, fruit, genetics, fail (assemble as you will) . . . and he's too perfect/godlike/cheap . . . yup he's already said that he thinks lessons are to much money for him to 'waste' on others safety. It's the height of hubris for this paragon of piste performance . . . belay that I'm losing my touch . . . this pustule of piste pulchritude to wax lyrical about his own performance and denigrate the rest of his family.
This is a man who's competency which, by his own standards should be limited to bitching about German towels on the sun loungers in Benidorm . . . well, he's hardly gonna go upmarket based on his own statements . . . he uses to to tell a newbie to go for it. If knob cheese were gold this man would be Croesus.
[/mildly irritated mode]
Dam, I must be getting soft, I've not risen to [rant] for such a long time I've almost forgotten the vocabulary . . . let's hope the Anal Pistula honours us with more of his home grown homilies. My anger manage issues are feeling a bit neglected
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You know it makes sense.
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IMO attitude and responibility (or lack thereof) are the biggest factors in whether a skier is dangerous. The skiers I see who briefly lose control when they don't want to be out of control are generally travelling slowly and are not really a risk to other slope users It's the idiots who think it is fun to straight line a red piste, lose it, then tomahawk down the slope for 30m narrowly missing other slope users who are the real problem. No amount of lessons are going to change their bad attitude.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, That's put into words exactly what I've been thinking.
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It's the idiots who think it is fun to straight line a red piste, lose it, then tomahawk down the slope for 30m narrowly missing other slope users who are the real problem. No amount of lessons are going to change their bad attitude.
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These are the ones you will never get to admit that they want or need lessons. I think they are also the ones that will never even spend time watching and then slowly trying to mimic other decent skiers on the slopes and trying to self learn until they have some control. They are probably the same ones, that will drink drive and think its acceptable to try and take speed bumps at 60mph and take off whilst driving past a primary school at 3:10pm I imagine that their general approach is not limited to skiing and that all sports and activities probably have their own examples.
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Poster: A snowHead
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I was boarding down Le Face in Val d'Isere and my toe edge caught in a funny way and sent me on a rail-track right-hander that I briefly couldn't control. I was conscious that I was heading toward someone, so I deliberately faceplanted and came to a halt just near them.
"VOUS ETES DANGEREUX" she told me, furiously.
"Yeah, well you're stood in the middle of one of the Alps' most notorious black runs making a fucking phone call" I couldn't quite work out how to say in French, so I just pootled off again.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I either need a snowboarding lesson, or a French lesson.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Mr Piehole, This forum needs a section for pithy, snappy, crude responses to learn by rote for just those suitable occasions . . .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Mr Piehole wrote: |
| I either need a snowboarding lesson, or a French lesson. |
If you're on Le Face and catch a 'toe' edge then you're either mad enough to not need lessons or too stupid to know you shouldn't be there
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I should have skidded down the entire descent on my heel like all the other boarders. That's what you're saying isn't it.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I've read this with interest. I always have lessons because I am pretty rubbish - well maybe not rubbish but a slow learner. My husband always has lessons because despite skiing for 30 years he says there is always something new to learn (and he likes the social aspect as well).
jirac18 - well done on teaching yourself to the level that you are at but I think it is a pity that you don't see the benefit of lessons in improving your skills and technique.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Incase I've yet to make it clear for anyone.....my point is this and simply this:
I do not need lessons to ski safely and considerately for all others on the piste near or around me.
Could I be a more profficient technical skier if I had lessons?....Yes but I choose not to because thats not what I need to get out of skiing!
Why is that so difficult to comprehend and why oh why does that seem to threaten the likes of Masque, so much.
If as Megamum, suggests we all take the equivalent of a skiing driving test, well i will take that test and I assure you pass it with flying colours without lessons.
Finally I agree I will be a better skier with lessons but I choose not to take them as I only have so many pounds each year and I'd sooner spend them on my wife and kids who don't ski as well as I do and who because of their natural disposition need and want lessons.
I really don't understand why Masque, finds this stance so threatening as to be so abusive....and to stoop to your level Masque, then I feel I should also grammatically correct you in that "to" really should be "too" in the context which you have used it in your previous rant...sorry meant post!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 24-12-12 2:15; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Playing devil's advocate, but surely having lots of lessons could make you a more dangerous skier? You'll get better, and probably therefore ski faster on average. We all know good skiers still mess up every now and then, so if your average speed is higher, then any unforeseen accidents are likely to be worse. I'm applying the same logic as the "not wearing a helmet makes me safer" argument.
As rob@rar, says, I think attitude and responsibility are the main factors. I know plenty of technically crap, but perfectly considerate and safe skiers. Equally, I see plenty of proficient skiers who ski too fast and too close to others to account for unforeseen circumstances.
Edit - But in response to the thread title - lessons.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 24-12-12 2:55; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jirac18, I'm not looking to judge or to get on your case..... if finances aloud, would you take lessons ? How will you address the issue when the kids abilities and skiing expectations surpass your own ?
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jirac18, As I said, I don't have a problem with you saying you're too cheap to pay for lessons, that's valid, crass but valid. It's your idiocy in stating that they'd be worthless 'cos you're too good already, that's puerile. Particularly in a response to this OP . . . and THAT's why you're an asshat.
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You know it makes sense.
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jirac18, I'm with you on this. As it happens, I've taken lots of lessons over the last three years or so, after many years of lesson-free riding. There were various reasons for doing this, none of which had to do with keeping others around me, or even myself, safe from harm. Furthermore, most of the teachers I had during the initial period of resuming tuition said much the same about my skiing: that I was an OK skier, who could ski most of the (pisted) mountain competently and safely, but there were many improvements which could be made. I am perfectly certain I was a safe skier before resuming lessons: I didn't venture into places which were too testing for my capabilities, I was not a speed merchant and I was aware of and adhered to the rules of the mountain. And skiing within my limitations was perfectly enjoyable.
FWIW, I decided to take lessons in order to increase my enjoyment and also to prolong it. My skiing is more efficient now than it was before and I don't get nearly as tired as a result. More areas of the mountain are now open to me. I am not, ahem, in my first youth and my aim is to be able to carry on skiing, conserving my inevitably waning energy, for as long as possible and to be able to exploit as much of the mountain as possible, at speeds which are fun but safe. I'll never be a really gnarly skier now - started too late/came back to lessons too late/not fit enough/insufficiently gung-ho - but I'm gnarlier than I was and enjoy the sport more. But I'm no 'safer' than I was, because I always did ski reasonably competently, within my capabilities and the bounds of safety.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Masque wrote: |
| It's your idiocy in stating that they'd be worthless 'cos you're too good already, that's puerile. |
That's not the way I read his posts. He said that he didn't think it was essential to take (formal, paid-for) lessons in order to be safe around other slope users. I think that's a reasonable position to take, provided you have a responsible attitude to your speed control and respect for the people around you.
Masque, it's the friends of the OP who should concern you (head to the nearest steep slope, strap your mate in to a pair of blades and give him a push), not jirac18 who very cleary recognises his responsibilities to the people he shares the mountain with.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, one can hardly blame the recipient of this - Masque's first post addressed to jirac18 - for taking exception to being referred to as an arrogant sociopath!
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| The arrogance of stating that you don't need lessons is the obvious indicator that you do and at some point you will ski outside your competence and with any luck the damage you do will be just to yourself and stop you from putting the rest of us at risk. Your positioning also indicates that are almost certainly a risk taker and probably quite competitive . . . another 'red flag' for a ski-bourn sociopath. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Pedantica, I'm sure that's right. As I have known Masque for a long time, online and occasionally on person, I'm accustomed to his rhetorical over-egging of the pudding, but for people who are not so familiar with style I guess he can come across in a way which is unintended . There is a kernal of truth in what Masque is saying, but it is being masked by his use of too many words, some of them quite mean-spirited.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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com·pe·tent: 1.Having the necessary ability, knowledge, or skill to do something successfully.
2.(of a person) Efficient and capable.
Synonyms: able - capable - qualified - fit - proficient - efficient
I guess it is a question of interpretation but personally I have not met a competent skier who has not had a lot of instruction - certainly not one who is skillful, knowledgable, effecient or qualified. Does not necessarily mean someone is unsafe, can't get around most places or is not enjoying being on skis
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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And this one for expert skiers / boarders
Expert
Ex = a 'has been'
Spurt = a drip, under pressure
Please note - it is Christmas and I am never to be taken seriously
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I agree moffatross, anyone who thinks they are a competent or "great" skier without any lessons must have one hell of an ego 
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moffatross, I know, I'm an arѕe  . . . but an earnest one
Re-read my posts . . . nope, I'm content to be an arѕe with this self-taught, nothing more needed, cheapskate, "great" skier; And my 'issues' are all too well known as now is his puffery
The idea that someone has nothing more needed to learn is beyond arrogant, it's potentially life threatening . . . extreme but within possibility and applicable to many of life's situations. Making a choice not to pursue additional skills is one that can have many valid reasons including cost, but then adding a codicil to that indicating that the price of additional skills is wasted as he's good enough without them is crass, circular logic and revealing in itself.
The mountain is not a benign and fixed environment and in the past has come dam close to killing me and has to a couple of friends (non skiing). They weren't risk takers, they were, we thought fully prepared for all eventualities, obviously they weren't. People are killed and injured in resorts every year and every year new equipment and new people join us on the hill to test our abilities. We have a responsibility to make an effort to keep ourselves and others as safe as possible and not proudly proclaim 'I'm as good as I need to be' (paraphrase).
No, you're not, you just laud your illusion of mediocrity and within averages and luck you will never place yourself, your children or anyone else in danger. There are lots of people on the hill that will get to a skills point and say 'that's it, I'm happy where I am' But they won't go on a ski forum and to all intents and purposes proclaim their lack of skiing credentials as a nadir.
I don't care how good you think you are or even how good you may actually be . . . yer a dick!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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FAQ
he who does not agree whatsoever, well you enjoy yourself too you perfect human being and be sure to pop round for that one to one and a cup of tea!. So long folks!
In reality we all know how easy it is to get hurt on the hill (don't we Pedantica . . . my right nut still aches in cold weather 