 Poster: A snowHead
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| Guyrhofen wrote: |
Not just British culture to have these leaders. Scandies guide customers too as do the dutch and I doubt they all have relevant qualifications either
Loss of guiding too could also affect ski away days organised from resort which I have always enjoyed as a customer and working as a rep. Not sure whether these will still be featured if ski leading not offered as part of the day. |
Not 100% sure on this one, but recall being told that the ski reps for Trier Ski (Danish company) in Austria have their Anwärter. Can't comment on any others.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 18-11-14 19:46; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I did find it quite amusing that continued reference to the rules in the context of Simon Butler's outlaw status linked to rule 5 & 7. Now just need it to be be built into political manifestos to be taken to the EU.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This is a very good thread. My experience in this is simple - in France and Italy, ( perhaps more ) skiing when paid to do so with paying guests is an activity that is strictly reserved for Instructors and Guides. That's the law. They consider it acceptable. So why should we moan ? I know we have done things in the past which wre either ignored or not seen but now that it is noticed, why complain?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I had it all planned out, retire in a few years time, learn a bit more french or some italian and lead the clients around the mountain on behalf of a TO
Cheapish winter holidays in big resorts that I love..
damn...
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Learn German instead, just make it quick!
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@Saint, I agree with you. If you are paying for something you should expect to get a qualified Instructor. Whether in France, Italy or anywhere else. It is all about if you pay. If the tour companies or SCGB are charging for the Ski Hosting/Leading even in a roundabout way through membership fees or extra confirmed activities included in the holiday or membership package then the person that is doing the Leading should be qualified.
However we must now wait and see if on further appeal the view is still taken that what is offered by Tour companies is a paid for activity and what the SCGB offers is also a paid for programme. Then yes, for it to continue they will have to all be qualified to some degree.
But does someone JUST leading round 'On the Piste' need to be more than just a basic qualified Ski Leader as is allowed with young peoples groups in many Alpine countries. IMO they do not. But I have a feeling the Judge will see this in another way.
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| Guyrhofen wrote: |
Loss of guiding too could also affect ski away days organised from resort which I have always enjoyed as a customer and working as a rep. Not sure whether these will still be featured if ski leading not offered as part of the day. |
I've never been offered guiding as part of an away day: I don't know what the cost model is but I always assumed these were encouraged by local coach companies with spare capacity during the week.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Resorts may offer this service provided by their main ski school, and some already do. Payable, but affordable. Subscribe online and turn up at the meeting point. It's really a non-issue. Plus it increasingly looks like chalet holidays the way they've been offered by TOs may become a thing of the past with countries starting to crack down on violations of their local employment laws.
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I think there is a decent shot this goes full circle in a lot of resorts and they invite the guiding back. Big resorts like tour operators as they promote certain resorts and pay up front. Many hotels may complain about the money they lose rather than people who buy independent, but they wouldn't take the tour operator's money if it didn't suit them! I think this is one added thing that encourages people to go with tour operators. Although people are unprepared to pay for it, it still has great value in encouraging people to go with the tour operators. Many hotels and businesses in the Alps are heavily dependent on tour operators for their survival.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@madlondoner, I've never heard of them "inviting the guiding back".
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@madlondoner, Will be interesting to see what happens, but I doubt it be back to the way things were. Simply too many people are skiing this days to leave it unregulated. Safety concerns will prevail. And unlike tourists who speak from their own experience governing bodies look at wider picture. Maybe there will eventually be a special qualification for on-piste guides, though I am not sure why it's needed as ski instructors are already there - trained and properly insured. As for dependency on tour operators for survival it's not strictly so and varies from country to country. Only about 3% in Switzerland - so their absence will be hardly noticed. Also situation is changing across Alps, not just in one single country, which means it's likely to be TOs who will need to adapt and change their mode of operation. So far British TOs were either renting or buying properties and staffing them with personnel shipped from Britain on wages so low that no local would take them, then sell al-inclusive holidays (with guiding), which means that many tourists would dine and drink in-house and even take leftovers as packed lunches. As a side effect often skiers on these packaged tours stay unaware of what resort has to offer besides ski lifts and slopes and probably won't even know where their tourist offices are located. On top their staff would not pay local taxes because they were hired on British contracts. This creates overcrowded slopes with dubious total benefits for local economies.
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| Saint wrote: |
| This is a very good thread. My experience in this is simple - in France and Italy, ( perhaps more ) skiing when paid to do so with paying guests is an activity that is strictly reserved for Instructors and Guides. That's the law. They consider it acceptable. So why should we moan ? I know we have done things in the past which wre either ignored or not seen but now that it is noticed, why complain? |
My feelings exactly. I've been with some 'on piste' ski hosting with chalet staff that was , quite frankly , unsafe. Losing people, going on runs not suitable for peoples level etc. IMO it's not protectionism, anyone who is good enough is free to gain the appropriate qualifications. There's nothing that says you have to be French, the real problem is you have to be a very good skier and for geographical reasons far more French will have learnt ( and raced ) from a young age, than Brits.
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You know it makes sense.
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I'm ok with paying for guides (and obviously lessons), but i think its a bit of overkill and quite frankly a waste of skills to have a fully trained ski instructor taking a bunch of decent skiers on guide around the slopes for a day or two just to show them where the best restaurants are !! especially when ski instructors are earning 50k+ euros a season (so i've been told !)
as 'never summer' says, the pistes are suposed to be more crowded and saftey can become an issue when insurance is involved... (odd as it's different in the USA, where you would expect firmer measures in place )
IMO there is an opening for a 'piste guide' level person ... which would be cheaper than instructor level and thus more popular.. surely ??
must bear in mind that the whole experience is paid for by the 'you' and it's 'your' holdiay.. surely the resorts should be making it a better experience for 'you' the holiday maker.. If i messed my customers about they go elsewhere !!! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Gufo wrote: |
| It's the same for Pila ! |
We are going with Pilaski and she is still guiding. Not sure who you are going with.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| eblunt wrote: |
| anyone who is good enough is free to gain the appropriate qualifications. . |
Have you seen what's involved in becoming an ISIA or ISTD ski instructor or a suitably qualified mountain guide? It's not about 'being good enough' and doing a course or two, the required qualifications take many years and thousands of pounds of personal investment to gain them, and those that do are unlikely to then work for near-minimum-wage for a TO leading holidaymakers around the pistes.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@feef, +1
No instructor worth his salt, after investing so much time and money, is gonna jump at the chance to offer this service. As @yorkshirelad, says, perhaps a new lower level qualification could be introduced, but unless it was very basic with little time/money demands then I can't see the TO's putting any of their employees through it.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I've been guided on free social skiing by fully qualifieds as part of a reasonably priced hotel price package and know other hotels which offer the service so think it is still possible.
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| dode wrote: |
@feef, +1
No instructor worth his salt, after investing so much time and money, is gonna jump at the chance to offer this service. As @yorkshirelad, says, perhaps a new lower level qualification could be introduced, but unless it was very basic with little time/money demands then I can't see the TO's putting any of their employees through it. |
+2
If there is a case for a formal qualification for accompanying holidaymakers around marked pistes* then the appropriate level is way below any instructor or mountain guide qualification. Skiing competence, basic first aid, basic mountain safety, group management and local knowledge should do the job - in short the very things that responsible TOs cover in their orientation weeks.
*I'm unconvinced that any formal qualification is necessary - surely a code of practice, agreed with local authorities would be enough?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| agw wrote: |
| dode wrote: |
@feef, +1
No instructor worth his salt, after investing so much time and money, is gonna jump at the chance to offer this service. As @yorkshirelad, says, perhaps a new lower level qualification could be introduced, but unless it was very basic with little time/money demands then I can't see the TO's putting any of their employees through it. |
+2
If there is a case for a formal qualification for accompanying holidaymakers around marked pistes* then the appropriate level is way below any instructor or mountain guide qualification. Skiing competence, basic first aid, basic mountain safety, group management and local knowledge should do the job - in short the very things that responsible TOs cover in their orientation weeks.
*I'm unconvinced that any formal qualification is necessary - surely a code of practice, agreed with local authorities would be enough? |
IME though the reps who have done the orientation weeks do not meet your criteria. I'd agree that a suitable qualification would be ideal but at the moment there isn't and I don't think there is sufficient demand for social skiing. Nothing to stop TOs organising social skiing just not lead it. If people are switching resorts/hotels in sufficient numbers as a result then resorts/hotels will find a way of offering a legitimate service.
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@dode, must tell that to the ESF lotharios I see from time to time accompanying ladies of a certain age down a few blues before enjoying a long lunch at the client's expense. required qualifications appear to be: tan, sultry looks and tight kecks. actual qualifications way more extensive than that. no-one seems to be complaining though 
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@agw, @TTT, There is or should I say was a British equivalent to the Monitors card for Teachers in Alpine countries to take groups around the mountain doing exactly what you are saying.
It was called the SCO2 and was issued by what was then the English Ski Council. Going back a few years now and I have know idea if this still exists in the UK.
But in the early days this was what some people I went with had. Enough to take people safely around the pistes and included some first aid certificate and mountain safety.
It would not be difficult to make this a formal qualification for Ski Hosting and SCGB Leaders. All you need to be is a good skier. Not an Instructor. There were higher levels for those that wanted to actually teach people.
I think this would work really well and the TO and even the SCGB could do this over a few training days as it was done then. The only problem would be to get the Alpine Nations to agree you do not need to be a top racer to take people around the pistes and have a nice lunch. I wonder could it work? It use to some year ago! 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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The French ski schools in Les Saisies offer days which are a tour/introduction to the Espace Diamant. No idea how popular they are but as there are no tour operators it's the only show in town. Except mine, of course. Free airport transfers and tours of the domaine. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@pam w, I hope you don't accept the odd "free" lunch. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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It might spoil the thread but about four of us are agreed on something !! that a "qualification" considerably less than Top Ski Instructor would suffice for the sort of leading we are talking about. I want to know how to initiate such a thing and whether people power might come into it , obviously from the punter nations, not the snow countries.
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@Farley Goode, I think as I said above the problem will be getting the Alpine nations to agree to accept the qualification as I described. It might need to go all the way to EU court as they will see it as taking business away from their Instructors and fight against such a qualification I would guess. Remember except for high season periods they often have younger Instructors with no work.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Farley Goode wrote: |
| It might spoil the thread but about four of us are agreed on something !! that a "qualification" considerably less than Top Ski Instructor would suffice for the sort of leading we are talking about. I want to know how to initiate such a thing and whether people power might come into it , obviously from the punter nations, not the snow countries. |
I prefer to think that some ragamuffin band of outlaw punter guides might develop perhaps slightly seedy looking bloke in an old Nevica jacket or a lady in polyester fur trimmed Rodeo. Ye shall know them by their vintage kit. Obviously keep an eye out for neon Ehlo if you want to be shown the best spots for throwing rockin speadeagles.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| feef wrote: |
| eblunt wrote: |
| anyone who is good enough is free to gain the appropriate qualifications. . |
Have you seen what's involved in becoming an ISIA or ISTD ski instructor or a suitably qualified mountain guide? It's not about 'being good enough' and doing a course or two, the required qualifications take many years and thousands of pounds of personal investment to gain them, and those that do are unlikely to then work for near-minimum-wage for a TO leading holidaymakers around the pistes. |
You're missing the point of my post. What you say may be true, but in what way is this pro French ? It's just as difficult for them, geographic reasons notwithstanding.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@eblunt, I understand your point, but do not agree with you. To do what a ski host does. You do not need to be a fully qualified ski instructor. In one of the French ski schools that offered a very limited version of ski hosting around the resort they mostly used stagieres (Trainiee Instructors). These young kids (17 -20 approx) might be good skiers, but most also know very little about mountain safety. They are mostly ex racers or still racing and enjoy going as fast as they can everywhere. The kind of qualification we have suggested would give those basic skills of mountain safety and group leading, but not demand that the youngsters are ski racers. This would open the work up to other youngsters from none Alpine Nations that are just good skiers.
Trouble is I do not think the Alpine nations would ever agree to recognize such a qualification even though it did exist in the UK and still does for Swiss, French, Austrian and I think Italian school teachers or youth leaders. So a solution is possible. oneday, maybe!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@snowcrazy, I don't dispute that the required qualifications may well be over the top , or possibly not well suited. I'm just saying they are not explicitly 'pro French' as seem to be suggested by some. The requirement simply favours any country that has a significant population who are brought up near a ski area.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@eblunt, I agree wiith you on that. And to be honest I do not see it changing any time soon. Just as a footnote. I have some British friends with kids and even my own relations who have, like me been skiing out here since they were very young. Some of them are now going through the French Instructor system and doing very well. Given enough time on snow anyone can do what is required if they have the motivation and natural skill. But it does not come cheap.  If they wish I am sure in another two years they will be working in France as fully qualified French Ski Instructors even though they are totally British (not half French) ie Mother or Father is French.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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In Whistler there is an official guiding service run every day meet at x spot. They are all done by locals, generally older people with good people skills, for a "free" ski pass. Very similar to the system they run in town to help any visitor find what they want down there too. They run different groups for the various ski capability and run colour desire. Some will take crazy people up the top to drop in off a 3ft cornice if that is what a group wants, but equally happy to show a group the good and quiet blue crusiers.
Obviously it is easier over there the Mountain and most of the resort is owned by a single company but it does work well. I have a feeling that a French young ski (ex) racer is not going to be interested in helping slower skiers finding the runs they want.
It is just going to go un-official. Obviously I am not including off-piste or anything that should need a real and fully experienced qualified local guide. That is completely different.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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^ that's quite common in North America
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Ski instruction and guiding is regulated in the main EU ski countries though. I'm not aware of anything in the EU rules that says skiing should not be regulated so not a matter for ECJ just as I see nothing in the EU rules that says teaching people to snowplough for many years is equivalent to having undertaken race training. I also see no rule against TOs giving a group a route map with agreed meet-ups or any rule about people finding friends and acquaintances to ski with.
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how close to a group of skiers do you have to be to be considered ' guiding it' ??? just a thought 
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I understand that what has been happening appears to be against the law in many countries, I however, link many above, think that in this very specific instance "the law is an ass". I recall that not so many years ago even the ESF instructors would be castigated by Mountain Guides for taking clients off piste as they were not correctly qualified.
Given that there appears to be some sort of dispensation for school teachers, it doesn't seem unreasonable to have a specific qualification for On piste guiding involving a skiing competence test, mountain safety test, a first aid certificate, a local knowledge test and a criminal record check. If the TO's were not interested then I'm sure there would be someone prepared to offer the service at a relatively small charge.
However if this, plus the need to pay local minimum wage, is indeed the end of the Chalet Holiday as some have suggested then the impact on some local chalet owners will not be inconsiderable as not all chalets are filled by large groups and a chalet for 14-20 people will be harder to fill independently than it is for the TO.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@tarrantd, you are basically specifying a level 3 instructor which I think in practice most people would agree with. I really don't see ski guiding as critical for most booking decisions and it seems chalet model is only significant in France. The minimum wage will just shift the cake from TOs to workers and local operators: Properties will adapt if necessary.
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If it means the end of the chalet holiday then the business model was flawed if it relied on being staffed by labour being paid at below the minimum wage/conditions for the locality.
My guess is that the chalets will still be there and will still be filled but that the business model will have to change. Whether this means higher prices, staff are paid more, or the structure of the holiday changes - only the market will decide.
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FAQ
and I'll bet the lady of a certain age (or her hubby) is paying more than min. wage 