 Poster: A snowHead
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You know, it took me 4 years to accept that ankle initiation was a real thing. 4 years of arguing against it. Like many, I insisted that it was a trigger. Then I did a lot of research, talking to the WC coaches, athletes, speaking to many many bootfitters that fit at that level.
Then finally this season - I punched my boots out to enable ankle mobility in that specific area.
It was like night and day. I didn't tell anyone else when I did this, for fear of ridicule. But the next morning, without exception - they all noticed a big step change in my skiing. There were big "wow"s going on. That morning I became a convert and decided to actually listen to the few coaches that had been telling me this for the last 4 years.
So - I suppose I should cut you some slack.
Have you even tried standing in the same position as the skier above on your carpet and playing with getting on edge with and without your ankle, and just your knees?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight,
i think you have an advantage being in Canada... the biomechanics researcher that did a lot of work on skiing biomechanics was canadian and worked with canadian skiers no? Some podborski??? guy was the skier???
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| little tiger wrote: |
veeeight,
i think you have an advantage being in Canada... the biomechanics researcher that did a lot of work on skiing biomechanics was canadian and worked with canadian skiers no? Some podborski??? guy was the skier??? |
Steve Podborski? Ex-WC racer and Crazy Canuck?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, Not only that, I have the advantage of being in Whistler during the championships and training, a big opportunity to keep up to date with what these guys are doing to stay competitive. Ken Read (another Crazy Canuck is now Head of the National Team). And it's been a tremendous year for Canada!
But hey - I'm willing to accept that there is more than 1 way to cook an omlette, so whichever school of thought you want to progress down, thats up to you!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight,
My instructor had canadian race coaching qualifications and was coaching there... My other instructor was canadian... I know how I like to cook 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, that would be him... IIRC they rigged him with a "boot" that was just a metal frame with sensors and ability to adjust size etc... he skied around trailing cable down the hill (they did not have wireless)... guess what? you ski best with ability to use feet like they are built to work... who would have thought it!
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There is a very simple experiment you can do at home.
Just stand on one leg, in your socks or bare feet, the other foot/leg lifted high, and your hands vertically above your head. Note which muscles and bones you are triggering to stay in balance.
Now, it you totally lock up the ankle, you have to use the next available joint further up your body to help stabalise you.
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Sorry, V8, you missed some of the points.
Martin wrote: "being able to alter the edge angle of your skis PURELY using the ankles". Obvious to see on the video, the skier did move his lower legs, not just his ankle.
| Quote: |
| You know, it took me 4 years to accept that ankle initiation was a real thing. 4 years of arguing against it. Like many, I insisted that it was a trigger. |
The ankle may have INITIATED the angulation, but it's not the ONLY movement that puts the ski edge.
| Quote: |
| Then finally this season - I punched my boots out to enable ankle mobility in that specific area. |
One may theorize the current design of boots LIMITS the range of movement of the ankle. And the punching of boots might indeed FREE it up, which may in fact be what you've experienced.
I'm not sure there's all that much REAL disagreement except the use of terminology. But as an instructor, you're held to a higher standard of effective communication. I'm afraid you're making the matter muddier than I think it really is.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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abc, The skier in the video edges using his ankles as the primary move, this has a limited range, so as the skier continues to increase the edge angle, the knee follows. If you were to do it the other way round (eg; knees first) then you have effectively locked up your ankle, and lost that crucial extra few degrees that makes all the difference.
If you watch that video again, and draw a line from the middle of his hands up his jacket zipper, you'll find that his hands stay pretty central, and that his knees don't move from side to side a whole lot. Now do that same stance/posture at home, on your floor, in your socks, and edge your feet (!) without moving your hands (and knees) from that central position.
Martin (and GrahamN) contend that in stiff ski boots, the ankle movement is more of a mental trigger, whereas I disagree and say that it's a real mobile movement inside the boot.
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My brain's hurting 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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'sok. So's mine!
Just stand on one leg, in your socks or bare feet, the other foot/leg lifted high, and your hands vertically above your head. Note which muscles and bones you are triggering to stay in balance, and tell me!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle,
If it helps this is one that instructors seem to like disagreeing on, although these days I see more in veeeights field than not (ie you need to be able to use the ankle to ski effectively) ... However the exact movement the skiers in question on video make seems ALWAYS up for a bun fight... :shrug:
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| veeeight wrote: |
| [Martin (and GrahamN) contend that in stiff ski boots, the ankle movement is more of a mental trigger, whereas I disagree and say that it's a real mobile movement inside the boot. |
This is the point that I'm really struggling with. As you know, I followed one of your tips to start with the ankles and it made a big difference as a mental trigger, but I'm fairly certain there was no significant lateral control of my ankle not least because there is no room in my boot for even a degree or two of movement. Is this only way to allow for this kind of movement to create room in the boot?
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You know it makes sense.
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| abc wrote: |
Sorry, V8, you missed some of the points.
Martin wrote: "being able to alter the edge angle of your skis PURELY using the ankles". Obvious to see on the video, the skier did move his lower legs, not just his ankle.
| Quote: |
| You know, it took me 4 years to accept that ankle initiation was a real thing. 4 years of arguing against it. Like many, I insisted that it was a trigger. |
The ankle may have INITIATED the angulation, but it's not the ONLY movement that puts the ski edge.
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sorry abc... but to INITIATE requires only how much edge angle on a slalom ski with A 0.5DEGREE base bevel?
Are you so SURE that that amount of edge angle cannot be generated by the ankle? because I'm sure not...
Sure you'll not get to 30 degrees that way.. but can you INITIATE?
and if you can INITIATE then you have altered the edge angle PURELY using the ankles...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight,
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Just stand on one leg, in your socks or bare feet, the other foot/leg lifted high, and your hands vertically above your head. Note which muscles and bones you are triggering to stay in balance, and tell me!
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Aha, I do Pilates, so this is no problem for me and the muscles doing the MOST work are the abdominal muscles. I'm finding it hard to isolate what's going on in my supporting leg, there seems to be effort all the way up, from the instep right up to the glutes. (Actually, the effort for me starts with my toes - that is a bad habit of mine, engendered by years as a child of wearing Dr Scholl sandals, which require you to grip your toes to keep them on. I know it's a bad habit, because it occasionally causes cramp when I ski, until I tell myself to stop behaving like a monkey up a tree!)
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar,
If you cannot pronate in that boot then you should try it in one you can... pronation does not require a huge amount of room... but you do need to not overly restrict the foot or it cannot occur.... this is NOT a huge move... remember on a ski with 0.5degree base bevel you do NOT need to move very much...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar,
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no significant lateral control of my ankle not least because there is no room in my boot for even a degree or two of movement. Is this only way to allow for this kind of movement to create room in the boot?
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I was JUST wondering that, when reading the 'visit to CEM' thread, and planning a visit to Bicester to check whether my boots will actually allow me to peform all the shenanigans on this thread! I know NOTHING in comparison with you, so am well chuffed to see you ask the question that was in my head. I am trying to keep up with this stuff, hard though it is! (God, I'll be keeping goats next )
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm going to have to read this whole thread and the artical aren't I 
Looked at the link when Little Tiger posted it and it looked like too much hard work then so 5 pages later I might just read it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Is this only way to allow for this kind of movement to create room in the boot? |
Yes, 'fraid so. But don't pull the trigger just yet. It took me 4 years to take the brave pill. 
Besides which, you need an experienced eye to look at your skiing first to determine if you are blocked in that area. From the photograph you posted in the "Carving Fat Skis" thread, you definitely were edging using your hips as your first move, I dare say things have changed considerable since then.
Incidently, I have video of one of my colleagues, before and after making mods to her boots. Again, night and day in her edging ability after the modifications.
Remember the Ron Lemaster list of factors to consider in evaluating skiers - Equipment comes top of the list.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| fatbob wrote: |
And as the old saying goes :" Who is the best skier on the mountain? The one having the most fun."
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Amen to that! 
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Ooops! Sorry, I only got to the bottom of page 1 and assumed that was IT, but I see I've just stuck my size ten boot in randomly on page 5 now...
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| Hurtle wrote: |
rob@rar,
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no significant lateral control of my ankle not least because there is no room in my boot for even a degree or two of movement. Is this only way to allow for this kind of movement to create room in the boot?
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I was JUST wondering that, when reading the 'visit to CEM' thread, and planning a visit to Bicester to check whether my boots will actually allow me to peform all the shenanigans on this thread! I know NOTHING in comparison with you, so am well chuffed to see you ask the question that was in my head. I am trying to keep up with this stuff, hard though it is! (God, I'll be keeping goats next ) |
If I had a spare pair of boots for running gates, or even for general piste skiing, I think I might be tempted to play around with them, but I have one pair of all-purpose boots and I'm loathe to start punching out more room having spent so much time getting them snog but not painful!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| little tiger wrote: |
rob@rar,
If you cannot pronate in that boot then you should try it in one you can... pronation does not require a huge amount of room... but you do need to not overly restrict the foot or it cannot occur.... this is NOT a huge move... remember on a ski with 0.5degree base bevel you do NOT need to move very much... |
Trend in WC is NOT to have a hard posted footbed - preceisely to let the foot pronate inside the boot. A few athletes now ski with nothing inside the liner - to give them a better feel, and to let the foot do it's work.
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veeeight, Oh dear, does that mean I have to go skiing before I have my boots looked at? Actually, I'm as sure as dammit, without anybody else even having to evaluate it, that I initiate turns in my hips (which are very, very flexible.)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| veeeight wrote: |
| Besides which, you need an experienced eye to look at your skiing first to determine if you are blocked in that area. From the photograph you posted in the "Carving Fat Skis" thread, you definitely were edging using your hips as your first move, I dare say things have changed considerable since then. |
When I focus and I'm not skiing close to my limit then yes, things have changed. But easy to resurrect bad habits of dropping and rotating when the going gets tough or fast!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hurtle, You and 90% of skiers on the slope. I wouldn't worry about it!
(said in the nicest possible way)
But you see, at this level, there are plenty of schools of thought. One even says that hip angulation alone is more effective....
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Wed 23-05-07 21:17; edited 1 time in total
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rob@rar,
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I have one pair of all-purpose boots
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yeah, me too, particularly since my limited abilities mean that there are less options open to me (running gates, indeed! Hollow laughter!) But I guess CEM would be able to advise on the best reasonable options in the circumstances.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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veeeight, naah, I'm not worrying, but wouldn't mind trying some of this ankle-rolling lark, it sounds like a good way forward. Or even downward. What did you learn from the fact that I use my 'core strength' to stand on one leg with my arms above my head? Apart, that is, from the fact that I must have looked a complete prat doing that in front of my PC.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Hurtle wrote: |
(running gates, indeed! Hollow laughter!) . |
That may not be so funny I used to say that once...
then some crazy race coach fool managed to shove me through a start gate in a Nastar course... now I'm trying to work out when I can get to a Nastar course again...and what to do in the mean time to reach my goals in it
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
What did you learn from the fact that I use my 'core strength' to stand on one leg with my arms above my head?
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That you probably initiate your edges in the same manner? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle,
try it again standing on a small pillow or cushion
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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veeeight,
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This may be of interest.
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Hm, a navicular punch (apart from sounding painful) sounds like a radical and irreversible option. As rob@rar implies, that could be an expensive experiment...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hey, another thread with several mentions of the 'G' words - good on you all folks - wonderful animals aren't they? 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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little tiger,
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try it again standing on a small pillow or cushion
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Is this a trick question, and shall I call my insurers?!
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Megamum, I'm so glad you enjoyed my allusion. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| veeeight wrote: |
abc, The skier in the video edges using his ankles as the primary move, this has a limited range, so as the skier continues to increase the edge angle, the knee follows. If you were to do it the other way round (eg; knees first) then you have effectively locked up your ankle, and lost that crucial extra few degrees that makes all the difference.
If you watch that video again, and draw a line from the middle of his hands up his jacket zipper, you'll find that his hands stay pretty central, and that his knees don't move from side to side a whole lot. Now do that same stance/posture at home, on your floor, in your socks, and edge your feet (!) without moving your hands (and knees) from that central position.
Martin (and GrahamN) contend that in stiff ski boots, the ankle movement is more of a mental trigger, whereas I disagree and say that it's a real mobile movement inside the boot. |
veeeight, you may be rigtht. But the video is not a good evidence to proof so. As you admited, due to the limited range of the ankle, it is impossible for anyone to see from the video. It was totally masked by the movement of the lower legs (as well as the side to side movement of the knee). In fact, because the ankle is wrapped up by the boot while the knee is free to move, there's no way one can SEE which is which.
Perhaps you may suggest the student to "attempt" to roll the ankle and let those who believe it to FEEL the effect. But watching that video didn't demonstrate anything beyond the the knee doesn't move MUCH!
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V8 I will admit to not reading all of this, but I scanned this last page and was intrigued by the hands above the head and on one leg thing. When I did it, when I wobbled - which to be honest wasn't easy to pursuade myself to do - I didn't naturally wobble, I found that it was my ankle and the muscles in my lower leg that steadied me - is this good or bad?
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FAQ
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