 Poster: A snowHead
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@laundryman, that may be your impression but was certainly not mine or that of other people. A dispute with one person where c.350 others do do not have a problem suggests the problem is with the individual which you conveniently ignore along with the EU rules, conviction and loss of licence. The guidance from BASI is clear not to use Level 2s and Level 3s so SB only has himself to blame and his supporters for his conviction and loss of licence not BASI. SB has been convicted and he has lost his licence so he is currently guitly. Whether you like or not the official view is that he is in the wrong. How is he going to wok in CH without a licence and Swiss Patente or is he also willing to risk prosecution there. working without isnusrance for himself and his customers. and not providing his customers the service that they have paid for as he has done in France?.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@TTT, a direct question for you which requires a simple yes/no answer;
Prior to just before the AGM did Simon Butler know his licence had been revoked?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I understand that the CEO role is a full time role.
I don't know what was in the correspondence but I understand that he has been told by BASI many times not to employ Level 2 and 3s as they believe it is illegal in France. If you are convicted and don't follow the rules of an Organisation that requires a CRB then you must surely realise you are putting your licence at risk. As it stands SB is guilty.
@speed098, I not not Aware of any questions that I have not answered unless I don't know the answer in which I am happy to answer the question unless I consider it a private question in which I'm also happy to say so.
It is SB and his supporters who should hang there head in shame. It is SB who has been covicted of illegal activity not BASI.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@marcellus, No I don't think he did as the decision was made just before the meeting as that was the time when the board had convened.I am saying at it was no surprise to me as I previously indicated on here that this could happen then it should have been no surprise to SB that if you convicted of an offence related to ski instructing then you risk losing your licence especially as BASI had told him not to. I have not seen the correspondence between SB and BASI or been directly party to their discussions.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@TTT,
You still have not answered why SB was told at the AGM rather than invited to attend the hearing and put his case forward even if you personally and BASI top dogs think he has no case.
You have still not answered do you think it professional to tell someone when they are in front of fellow members and embarrass that person when it could have all been done in writing.
You have still not answered how will BASI look and now also what actions would have to be taken by BASI if SB wins his appeal.
That's three to start with direct straight answers please.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| TTT wrote: |
| @marcellus, No I don't think he did as the decision was made just before the meeting as that was the time when the board had convened.I am saying at it was no surprise to me as I previously indicated on here that this could happen then it should have been no surprise to SB that if you convicted of an offence related to ski instructing then you risk losing your licence especially as BASI had told him not to. I have not seen the correspondence between SB and BASI or been directly party to their discussions. |
OK, so a couple of follow up question for you requiring a yes/no;
1) was the New CEO party to the Board meeting when it was decided to revoke the licence?
2) In your own words "you are at risk of losing your licence" so it's not certain you will lose your licence is it?
3) Until a few minutes before the AGM could Simon legally work in Switzerland this season?
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They told Simon with a word in his ear, unsurprisingly he did not leave the meeting as requested.
I was three seats away, it was quiet I could not hear, but found out when I asked Simon as he had a rather bemused and puzzled look on his face. Possibly wondering how he was going to feed his family as his means of working in Switzerland were being removed.
The word used was "revoked" not even" suspend" his licence.
I'm not sure that BASI have followed their own grievance procedure, no decision is binding until final decision by the ombudsman.
I worry more for our association I think they have made some possibly expensive legal mistakes by not following their own due process.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Mon 3-11-14 11:09; edited 2 times in total
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In the articles of association we are all in danger of losing our licence.
DISCIPLINARY PROCEDURES
45. All snowsport instructors are bound by a code of ethics. In the event of a breach of this code then the Board will act upon and investigate the allegations made against the instructor whether by the general public, his/her employer, fellow professionals or otherwise and following on such investigations take such action in respect of such breach as it considers (at its absolute discretion) appropriate.
46. The Board shall call disciplinary procedures against any member on the basis of evidence presented.
It would appear that the board can do whatever it would wish if any individual breaks any of the code of ethics.
I have probably breach the code by publishing this here, bang goes my licence.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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French law is focussed on maintaining closed shops for French nationals, so it should be no surprise that as a major member of the EU France exerts huge influence over EU regulations which will therefore be directed towards protecting French interests.
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@irie, It is not EU that has been tested as yet it is only French law.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Speed098: I agree BASI look like shits no matter how one reads this, but why should they wait for the appeal(s)? What sort of jobs would you be happy to see people doing for two years after conviction while they exhaust the appeals process?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Dunk
Yes, but the French will change their law as and when required in order to protect their own interests. They dontcare about the EU either, they know that appeals take forever during which time they'll do precisely as they wish.
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@speed098, as stated previously there was no disciplinary hearing. It was a board decision under the articles of association. As the board decision was made only just before the AGM then there was no chance of informing SB before the meeting. I agree this was not ideal though. If SB wins his appeal that he can legally employ L2s and L3s then his license should be renewed. I see no basis for that under French law or EU rules. Currently he is guilty so correct that he should be suspended. Even SB has acknowledged that he can not work in France. I agree that really there should have been a board meeting earlier and SB informed in advance in writing. Logistically that was not possible.
The new CEO is appointed until January so not party to the decision.
Not certain but I would expect if I did not comply with my license I would lose it.
He could not work in CH unless he has a work permit and a swiss patente or he worked for a local ski school. That is not what he has indicated so hopefully this action by BASI should help SB by preventing from further prosecution
To repeat this was not a disciplinary procedure as no complaint was brought but a decision under the articles of association. If you don't have a satisfactory CRB you will also lose your license which is effectively the case here
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You know it makes sense.
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Is it just me that find all theses "yeah but no but yeah but no..." threads on ESF/Mr B/the French.etc strangely hypnotic?
I mean in months of arguing we're seeing the same arguments being used over and over again, each one participant confident of holding the "obvious" truth ( I think we can safely say nothing is obvious otherwise there would have been a couple of pages on this at most), most accusing others of bias when they are themselves just as guilty, and with as yet no consensus emerging..
I should not even bother opening those pages as I know 100% that any new post will be the same as a hundred others... and yet here I am... naive hope of some saviour post or just addiction?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Dunk, incorrect as the EU rules are implemented under French law
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Poster: A snowHead
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@TTT, time will test that, I will be happy to be wrong 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Kruisler, fully agree  / only I know that I am backed up by the judge and the lawyers and what I have said has come to pass while SB is convicted and loses his license.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Dunk,
The key words in this are.
Investigate
Call disciplinary procedures
Code of Ethics
They are duty bound to invite SB to put forward his defense as to why he should not have is license revoked or suspended ( strong legal defense would be he is appealing and has won previous appeals ( this may not stop suspension but IMO would make revoking someones license unsafe ) He has removed himself to another country and will not be teaching in France, his company is complying with the agreement made between two bodies ie ESF BASI ).
If any organisations Procedures do not allow for due process ie someone being able to attend and put forward their case that organisations procedures are not worth the paper they are written on and they would not win a case in any tribunal or appeal.
The board of BASI MUST ! inform a member they are bringing procedures against them, what the accusations are who made them and when and invite them to answer the accusations.
@TTT, BASI are wrong in how they dealt with this FACT !
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@TTT, and that is where this case will head. I have no legal training, only the documents I have seen. Some can be a little ambiguous and I'm sure at some point a higher EU level decision will be made.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@TTT, did the judge say he was adhering to French law or EU law?
No they are not the same.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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@Dunk, I think that the solution is that SB cuts a deal with a CH ski school and works for a ski school there. I think that whether he can work without a licence in CH is an insurance question as it could be possible.
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@TTT, as you seem to know many workings of the BASI inner sanctum, can I ask why Simon received his MOU for two seasons and then last season had it withdrawn?
I ask this as of yet Simon has not received any satisfactory reply other it was issued in error, what for two years?
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The EU requires that its EU rules and enacted into local law so the are the same.
I repeat there was no disciplinary procedure as it was not covered by the disciplinary procedures just as I don|t get a licence if I don|t comply with the requirements.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Very grubby business. 
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On both sides......
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@TTT, we had better be careful we do not break code of ethics 1.19
I like my licence.
did
By what is apparent to me any breech can be seen as serious enough to warrant a board meeting from whence they can take any action they deem appropriate.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Mon 3-11-14 11:51; edited 2 times in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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out of interest i wonder how many BASI instructors are working in england without the correct DBS clearence?????? BASI only run the basic and thats not enough in England, means you shouldnt be working......just saying...
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@Dunk, as stated before SB does not have the capa, ET and did not apply for his grandfather rights with the French on time so should have not have been given his MoU previously which was issued in error.
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You know it makes sense.
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@TTT, twice issued in error?
As @irie, said "very grubby business"
and I replied "on both sides"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@TTT,
Forget everything else just this one point "Under the articles of association" he had a right to put forward his case no matter what the articles say. You say this is a long standing issue but then say "Logistically that was not possible" ( that SB be informed and invited to attend ) I newly qualified solicitor would rip BASI apart on that one point alone.
My personal recommendation is BASI should apologise in writing to SB that they made the decision in haste and are re-instating his license on the understanding he instructs in CH not France he has no further new issues arise while working in CH and agrees to have no imput in any aspect of
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Poster: A snowHead
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@TTT, I wonder if Simon has any documentation from BASI disputing whether he is or not ISTD fully qualified?
It would be a shame if they told him he was, then pulled the qualification away from him.
Very puzzling situation, I wonder what is really happening?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Dunk wrote: |
@TTT, we had better be careful we do not break code of ethics 1.19
I like my licence.
did
By what is apparent to me any breech can be seen as serious enough to warrant a board meeting from whence they can take any action they deem appropriate.
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SB is no longer a member so that is fine and it only says should and as it is anonymous I think we should be fine to carry on disagreeing. I think you will find that there is a reason why I have been accused of being cryptic and do not refer to individuals and why I always think that buying beer for some people is a sound investment.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| TTT wrote: |
| The EU requires that its EU rules and enacted into local law so the are the same. |
That is incorrect, a member state (ie France, United Kingdom etc etc) does not have to implement EU law that is why all contracts should state which Countries law applies to the contract and the jurisdiction of any legal hearings.
However, the issue may arise if a States law/ruling contradicts EU law, one can comply with EU law whilst be against the law in the country in which they are performing the contract and vice verse.
There are also some principles that member states have signed up to by joining the EU, such as freedom of Trade, movement of people etc etc etc
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@TTT, I'm out. Better to keep my counsel for now. I should remove the Guildford tag.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Mon 3-11-14 12:12; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 3-11-14 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Mon 3-11-14 12:11; edited 1 time in total
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| TTT wrote: |
| The EU requires that its EU rules and enacted into local law so the are the same.. |
They should be the same. It does not follow that they are the same and there are many, many cases where national transposition of directives into national law has been found to be defective.
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I would not be shocked if the subject of SB came up between BASI and their French counterparts.
@speed098, they have already had lots of correspondence and discussions with SB and he has not adhered in the past. A lawyer would just look at the articles and see if they have complied or not. I can not see that they have not complied. Again just like the EU rules you can argue that they are wrong but not that they have not been complied with. BASI have taken the licence away of someone who has been convicted so would be seen to be acting reasonably. The process may not be ideal but it is legally sound.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I agree all contracts refer to country law rather than EU rules and that they may not always be properly enacted but I see nothing in the EU rules including the derogation that the French have not complied with so I see no reason why SB would win in ECJ.
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With all this hand wringing it should be born in mind that this mess is the direct result of the French playing silly b*ggers and protecting their own narrow parochial interests. Plus ça change ...
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FAQ
