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Simon Butler ... "BASI licence revoked" [1 Nov] ... court challenge [21 Nov]

 Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Two BASI members have reported tonight that ... at a general meeting of BASI this evening* ... the Association announced that Simon Butler has had his BASI licence revoked.

* at the Ski Show in London

Sources:

BASI - Members' Group Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/BASIMembers/

The Ski Trade magazine on Twitter: https://twitter.com/TheSkiTrade


[Edit 3 Nov: the title of this thread has been shortened, removing the wording " ... reports [unconfirmed]" ]


Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 22-11-14 0:39; edited 2 times in total
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 Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Is that for 'bringing the association into disrepute'?
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Rumor is that SB is in the process of taking BASI to court over their part in the ongoing ESF / France saga ?
In which case they perhaps had no choice but to revoke his license ?
Whilst I have a small degree of sympathy he certainly has dug himself a big hole, and seems to be keeping on digging.
He is certainly in a very difficult situation now.
More legal action seems inevitable ?
But given that he lost his last court case is that best advised ?

Popcorn out : cause this one will run and run....
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Does this mean he wont be able to teach anywhere in europe?
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yuppie wrote:
Does this mean he wont be able to teach anywhere in europe?


You don't need a licence in the UK, as skiing is a unregulated profession.
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It definitely is in Switzerland - bit of a killer one month before the season.
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stewart woodward wrote:
yuppie wrote:
Does this mean he wont be able to teach anywhere in europe?


You don't need a licence in the UK, as skiing is a unregulated profession.


Outdoor sport is not regulated in the UK - however he would be un-insurable.
With out a license he couldn't apply for equivalent status in any other European nation.

Hopefully there is a route back for him in the future if both sides can come to a reasonable agreement ?
Interested to hear the full details as for now its speculation...
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Hmm it's a bit more serious than a club blackballing a member because they are a pain in the harris and their face doesn't fit, actively taking a decision that impacts on an individual's ability to ply their trade. It's not a decision to be taken lightly and normally would only be used in cases of serious professional misconduct. Certainly prospective or actual legal action doesn't seem like strong enough cause and if that is the case BASI really doesn't emerge with any credit. What next?
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Judging from the way SB was told of the decision, apparently just 5 mins before the meeting was due to start, plus the apparent manner in which the decision was taken, the likely impact on his professional status and a number of other factors, this whole sorry mess has done BASI no favours and may well have opened themselves up to far more severe legal action.

In addition their lack of transparency over their accounts is disturbing.
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SB is a long standing matter and has been under consideration for some time. SB has been convicted not basi. Basi had to consider the conviction after taking legal advice. The board only met yesterday so a formal decision could only be taken yesterday.

Accounts are a legal document whose contents are prescribed by regulations. They don't normally include a break down of admin expenses so absolutely nothing disturbing at all.

A

It
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Seems to me that @Dave of the Marmottes has a point regarding ability to practise one's trade. What exactly is BASI's legal status anyway?

Worms, can, cam-opener... here we go... Twisted Evil
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In my "summer sport", there's a ruckus in progress over disciplinary action which has prevented a professional athlete from making a living that's gone all the way to the Court of Arbitration for Sport. I hope BASI knows what they are doing. If I am correct in thinking the legal process is still in play for SB, this seems a strange action to take at this point.
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SB licence was not revoked because of a disciplinary procedure but because of being convicted of employing under qualified instructors which is also happens to be contrary to basi guidelines. These are matters of fact. The acting CEO is a lawyer. Basi has a very strong position.
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 You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
What you won't read in tomorrow's Telegraph: "British ski instructor banned from European slopes...by the British"

The employment law breaches don't make for a sexy headline but it's always the little details that trip people up. I wonder how long BASI had this idea in the bag or did they just stumble upon it this week?

Also keen to hear what Mayor Boris and Nigel think of this development...
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To be fair to DT they did publish articles with both sides of the story which is more than can be said for the daily fail
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I guess if I were a BASI member I'd like to have full disclosure of conversations had between BASI, the French certifying body and the ESF if appropriate. It's not as if SB's business model is a new and exciting revelation only uncovered in the French court this year. It tends to look like a "will no-one rid me of this turbulent priest" situation.
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TTT wrote:
The acting CEO is a lawyer.


The acting CEO, lawyer, also recommended altering the Articles of Association, at last years EGM, as British Company Law had changed. He was asked to clarify which parts of Company Law had changed. We are still awaiting an answer! The motion was defeated.

The same alterations were proposed for yesterdays EGM but were withdrawn.
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 Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
That does not mean he was legally wrong or that SB has not been convicted. It is normal to suspend someone who has been convicted.
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TTT wrote:
That does not mean he was legally wrong


With regard to the AoA's I would have expected him to quote chapter & verse without any problems.
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Then you have unrealistic expectations - you know the principles but the law is not something you rote learn
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Quote:

It is normal to suspend someone who has been convicted.

if that's what the rules, regulations etc. say.


feel sorry for genuine BASI members. their membership fees are going to be paying lawyers. and someone is going to get their ass whooped, unless absolutely everything is 100% by the book.
and at the end of it, there'll be 2 instructor organisations.
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Quote:

He was asked to clarify which parts of Company Law had changed. We are still awaiting an answer!

Company Law has indeed changed - a major consolidation and amendment of previous Acts. As a result of the changes I drew up a new constitution for the Company which owns the freehold of the housing estate I live on - with some advice from a barrister who was living on the estate at the time (I am no lawyer, but really it was pretty straightforward). Lots of information on the websites at the Ministry of Corporate Affairs and Companies House.

It's by no means easy to say "what changed" as a whole, but should be possible, I guess, in the case of any particular proposal for change. Certainly you would expect a proposal for changing A of A to be presented with an explanatory document.

As I understand it the "model" Articles of Association apply by default to Companies (depending on when they were incorporated) regardless of what their own Articles of Association might say (ie if there is a conflict between company law and a specific set of Articles, the former will have precedence).

So it's possible that the new legislation will, in practice, have changed BASI's Articles without the members having done a thing!

All in all the new legislation provides useful opportunities for smaller companies, in particular, to simplify their constitution and generally make things easier for members to understand and put into practice.

For example, there is no requirement for a company to have "Objects" - which can make for a lot less argument about angels dancing on the head of a pin.

In our case straightforward Articles of Association (following the model) replaced the old Memorandum (no longer needed) and Articles. We approved it by a very substantial majority (it had to be 75%) and we have a new "procedures" document with all the day to day stuff, which can be amended by a simple majority.
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I am not surprised that BASI did something but I hope the reports of how SB was told etc are totally wrong.

No matter what the constitution of club/organisation are any member has a right to attend any disciplinary hearing and must be provided in advance of all accusations any supporting statements, documentation. No accuser can be on the panel overseeing the hearing. Failure to do this leaves the organisation open to legal proceedings for unfair dismissal/suspension.

I personally think BASI would have done better to await any appeals since SB had moved to Switzerland for this season. If he had been intending to work in France this season still then yes they had to make a decision ( with him present to put forward a defence ).

To revoke his license or suspend it because they say he has employed under qualified instructors could be awkward if the ECJ decide France had no right to restrict L2 and especially L3 instructors no matter what BASI agreed with ESF behind closed doors.
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@TTT, not convicted in "his own" country.

Could he have been extradited for it? I doubt it.
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TTT wrote:
Then you have unrealistic expectations - you know the principles but the law is not something you rote learn


Not a lawyer but have passed some law exams and plenty of rote learning is involved. You won't get far without it.
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Who said anything about being convicted in uk.

This was not something that just happened as there was prior correspondence although the formal decision was only just yesterday as the board was meeting. It was not done as a disciplinary procedure but under articles of association. This was driven by the french and the fact he was still advertising for holidays in megeve. There is little doubt that L2s and L3s are not allowed under EU rules so this is why basi went for this reason. It is based on EU rules not some agreement between ESF and basi and will facilitate negotiations to the benefit of all members.
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@dogwatch, my law exams have been open book. Rote learning is very old fashioned and not reality in world of work.
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Open book was certainly not allowed when I did my pharmacy law exams. I need to know immediately what the legal status of a controlled drug, poison or medicine is, no time to go looking it up in dusty tomes or on tinternet. Medicines Act, Misuse of Drugs Act all had to be studied and remembered.
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@Hells Bells, im sure you did - there was certainly no time for detailed research in my exams. In reality though at work I regularly refer back to the contracts, laws and regulations for specifics as the lawyers I work with do and certainly there is no quoting specifics of the top of the head.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
TTT wrote:
@dogwatch, my law exams have been open book. Rote learning is very old fashioned and not reality in world of work.


Not a lawyer. But in my field.....it's very easy to say you can look everything up and you can. But it's slow. The people who are good remember a lot as well as knowing how to research.
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TTT wrote:
It was not done as a disciplinary procedure but under articles of association. This was driven by the french and the fact he was still advertising for holidays in megeve.


Srsly? You're saying the French drive BASI's AoA and disciplinary procedures?

If you are anything to do with BASI you're making them look like a joke.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@dogwatch, yes agreed you need to know where to look and the principles but don't know anyone who can quote chapter and verse of the top of their head.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TTT wrote:

Accounts are a legal document whose contents are prescribed by regulations. They don't normally include a break down of admin expenses so absolutely nothing disturbing at all.


The accounts that my accountant presents to me always have a breakdown of the admin (overhad) costs and we discuss them as part of the sign off process.

I'd imagine that BASI members would need that level of detail to be able to assess the performance of their board & CEO.
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@AndAnotherThing.., your statutory accounts may but not normal. It is normally dealt with in the internal mgmt accounts.
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So @TTT, as you seem to have some insider knowledge of what is going to and what is happening within BASI. How will BASI look if say in May 2015 SB has a ECJ hearing and they overturn the French courts decision finding in SB's favour ?

They will then have refused him his livelyhood for a full season without just cause because his winning would mean there was no just cause.

I hope BASI have connections to a much higher source and they prey long and hard that it will not be overturned. Because otherwise it may be the end for all those in authority at BASI who supported this action.
SB as a person was not advertising in Megave his company minus him was. He is setting up shop in Switzerland and thus BASI could have said that is grounds not to suspend/revoke him unless they receive similar complaints from the Swiss.
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TTT wrote:
Who said anything about being convicted in uk.

This was not something that just happened as there was prior correspondence although the formal decision was only just yesterday as the board was meeting. It was not done as a disciplinary procedure but under articles of association. This was driven by the french and the fact he was still advertising for holidays in megeve. There is little doubt that L2s and L3s are not allowed under EU rules so this is why basi went for this reason. It is based on EU rules not some agreement between ESF and basi and will facilitate negotiations to the benefit of all members.

Has Simon Butler Skiing (the organisation) been banned from operating in France? After the arrests at half term last season, SBS continued to operate with Carte Pro holders only. That was also the plan for the operation in Megève (much scaled back) for the coming season. SB himself had intended to operate in Switzerland (as recommended by the judge). I can see nothing on the website which indicates that SB intended to instruct in France or that he intended to employ others without the Carte Pro for instruction.
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@TTT, Indeed, but it seems that the membership doesn't get to see the 'internal' detailed version of the accounts, only minimum required for public record.
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laundryman wrote:
TTT wrote:
Who said anything about being convicted in uk.

This was not something that just happened as there was prior correspondence although the formal decision was only just yesterday as the board was meeting. It was not done as a disciplinary procedure but under articles of association. This was driven by the french and the fact he was still advertising for holidays in megeve. There is little doubt that L2s and L3s are not allowed under EU rules so this is why basi went for this reason. It is based on EU rules not some agreement between ESF and basi and will facilitate negotiations to the benefit of all members.

Has Simon Butler Skiing (the organisation) been banned from operating in France? After the arrests at half term last season, SBS continued to operate with Carte Pro holders only. That was also the plan for the operation in Megève (much scaled back) for the coming season. SB himself had intended to operate in Switzerland (as recommended by the judge). I can see nothing on the website which indicates that SB intended to instruct in France or that he intended to employ others without the Carte Pro for instruction.


My understanding as well. I fear either TTT is not as clued up as he/she pretends to be or BASI's clarity of thinking really is a jumbled mess.
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@speed098, I think basi are very confident that will not happen as there is no basis under the EU rules for it to happen.

I never suggested that SBS was banned from using carte pros. The problem is that SB has been convicted of employing under qualified staff and that is why his licence has been taken away. The french think he has broken the law. Basi think he has broken the law. Advertising in Megeve has meant it is harder to ignore his conviction. So it is difficult to see how he could keep his licence.

You are perfectly at liberty to ignore me but it is seems some people are happy to encourage SB to break EU rules, french law and the basi guidelines so that he gets convicted and loses his licence. I don't see that as a great outome for anyone.
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my prediction... someone at the top end of BASI will walk or be forced to walk, for not following due process, and pretty much bending whatever evidence and rules and regulations in the handbook to get rid of someone they don't like. and then coming on a forum to leak information to futher bend evidence an opinion.
BASI membership will be paying the lawyers fees I guess.
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