 Poster: A snowHead
|
@speed098
| Quote: |
So at least 60% of the instructors must hold a diploma issued by the French Sports Ministry.
This is the point.They must hold the FRENCH ! Diploma so what use is having an EU directive for equivalency if the FRENCH can say oh! but you still need to have qualified under OUR system.
This is NOT acceptable and BASI should fight this tooth and nail and as vocally as they can.
No it is not acceptable to have French qualified instructors because they are in France they can have EU state qualified instructors ie for the UK BASI qualified. Or are you saying BASI L2 or L3 must receive training from the French ESF and not BASI ?
If 60% have to be ESF how can that be a BASI school by the fact it is majority ESF trained instructors it would be an ESF training school with some BASI instructors. |
Just to clarify: If a ski school is training trainees to pass the FRENCH diploma then IMHO it is perfectly reasonable that those doing the trg must have a thorough knowledge of the FRENCH system.
If on the other hand a ski school wishes to deliver BRITISH BASI courses in FRANCE then there's apparently nothing to stop them.
If you look in the text NOWHERE does it state ESF!!!! There's a multitude of French ski schools that can be "Centre de Formation". For want of repetition New Generation ski school could become a centre de formation on the condition that 60% of the instructors held a recognised French diploma. Once again I think it's entirely reasonable if you are training people for a French diploma rather than a British one that a high percentage of the instructors hold the French diploma. (The text I read http://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/affichTexte.do?cidTexte=JORFTEXT000025772888&fastPos=11&fastReqId=709076581&categorieLien=id&oldAction=rechTexte that details the whole process of becoming a ski instructor in France does not mention the subject of equivalence but neither does it rule it out).
For what it's worth - I've gone through the process of an equivalence in France and had a lot of help from the French Sports ministry officials in Chambery. They couldn't have been more helpful. So my experience has been an entirely positive one.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
I'm not too sure if this has already been posted (if so forgive me) but it would appear to demonstrate that as far as the EU is concerned the French are acting entirely within EU rules.
| Quote: |
A number of UK media, including the BBC Radio 4 Today programme, the Daily Mail and the Daily Telegraph, have reported over the last few days on the arrest of British ski instructors in France, for allegedly operating without proper authorisation.
Most of these stories – and a follow up piece in the Telegraph by the Mayor of London Boris Johnson – extrapolated from the specific case at hand, currently being investigated by the European Commission in order to establish whether EU law was breached – to say or suggest that single market rules were in practice no use to British ski instructors. None of the media who ran these reports sought input from the Commission.
The Daily Telegraph did, however, in its own specialist ski section – and without reporting or quoting from this piece in the news section – run an informative interview with a British director of a ski school in France who comprehensively refuted much of the content of the other articles:
On 26 February EU Internal Market Commissioner Michel Barnier issued the following statement:
“I have just met with Malcolm Harbour MEP, Chair of the Committee on the Internal Market and Consumer Protection and Emma McClarkin MEP.
As I explained to them, I can’t comment on the details of the Butler case as it’s an ongoing legal case but suggesting the single market does not work for ski instructors is wrong.
There may be a few specific problems which need to be tackled on a case by case basis, but the facts are clear:
- Ski instructors are a regulated profession in a number of Member States, such as Italy, Austria or France. This is in line with EU law.
- There is an agreed procedure to be followed to have a qualification recognized in another Member State.
- Around 35,000 professionals (doctors, nurses, architects, etc.) benefit from it every year (up from 25,000 few years ago).
- Over 350 fully qualified British ski instructors have benefited from the recognition procedure and are currently established in France. (More British ski workers can work as seasonal workers.)
- Since I have been Commissioner, I have pushed strongly for a specific European recognition mechanism for ski instructors to cut red tape, sparing ski instructors the administrative checks on their qualifications.
- The recognition mechanism for ski instructors, a scheme backed by 11 Member States – including the UK, Italy, Austria and France – allows any fully qualified ski instructor who fulfils the conditions without any formality other than a declaration to:
- work for any ski school
- provide private coaching, for example on a freelance basis
- or to open their own ski school in any of those 11 member States.
I confirmed to both Malcolm Harbour and Emma McClarkin that my staff have received complaints on the recognition of qualifications for ski instructors in France and we are investigating them, seriously and efficiently in the way we investigate all complaints.”
Background
Well-established European rules (new Directive 2013/55 which strengthens and modernises Directive 2005/36) exist to ensure the recognition of qualifications and diplomas between Member States.
The profession of ski instructor is regulated in a certain number of Member States (the Alpine countries: Austria, Italy, Germany (Bavaria) and France) in particular for reasons of mountain safety. This is in conformity with EU law.
A ski instructor with a diploma from another Member State has the right to exercise his profession – in a self-employed or other capacity – in another Member State.
Nevertheless, pursuant to a procedure which is fully harmonised under EU law, the host Member State may impose two conditions concerning the freedom to provide services (health and safety) or the freedom of establishment:
Prior notification to the competent authorities – this is the case for France, Austria, Italy, and Germany (Bavaria).
The competent authorities have the right to check qualifications of ski instructors established and exercising on their territory during a pre-determined period (3 months) in order to compare national requirements. In case of occasional service provision, Member States can check qualifications for professions with health and safety implications and must decide within one month whether compensating measures are required. Once this has been done, and in the case of ski instructors, certain Member States have been entitled to impose a specific compensating measure, for reasons of mountain safety – the EUROTEST.
In the context of a pilot project and in order to create an AUTOMATIC RECOGNITION MECHANISM, a Memorandum of Understanding (MoU) was agreed and signed in 2012 between nine Member States (Austria, Belgium, Germany, Denmark, Spain, France, Italy, Romania and UK) Two more Member States were added in 2013 (Czech Republic and Slovenia)
Under the MoU, instructors with the highest level of qualifications in their home Member State and having passed the EUROTEST can benefit from a professional card and from automatic recognition, thus exercising freely their profession in one of these Member States, establishing themselves there, opening their ski schools or freely providing their services.
[Note: a French ski instructor who wants to open his own ski school in France or work independently must also pass the EUROTEST.] |
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
I'm sorry but you're missing the finer parts of the debate. This has been discussed multiple times on multiple threads but the gist is that if it is only legal to be a centre de formation and to be that your full certs have to be French system qualified then you have a neat and possibly discriminatory barrier to other equivalent systems establishing their own training schools in France.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| I'm sorry but you're missing the finer parts of the debate. This has been discussed multiple times on multiple threads but the gist is that if it is only legal to be a centre de formation and to be that your full certs have to be French system qualified then you have a neat and possibly discriminatory barrier to other equivalent systems establishing their own training schools in France. |
Quite the reverse in fact.
As stated above you can set up your own ski instructor training school in France - and deliver whatever award you want - just not the French award without following their rules.
Following the logic of your argument it would lead to the following:
British ski school with no French qualified instructors set up ski school in France to train people for French qualification that they have little or no detailed knowlege. Nuts!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
@Dave of the Marmottes, can you explain of how this is discriminatory?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@marksavoie,
So please provide here a list of some of the BASI training schools that employ L2 and L3 instructors in the same way the ESF schools that hold the Centre de Formation have stagiaire employed.
Maybe I have not looked hard enough but I can not find a single one which given your earlier post re holding the French Diploma seems to explain why I can not find any.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| speed098 wrote: |
@marksavoie,
So please provide here a list of some of the BASI training schools that employ L2 and L3 instructors in the same way the ESF schools that hold the Centre de Formation have stagiaire employed.
Maybe I have not looked hard enough but I can not find a single one which given your earlier post re holding the French Diploma seems to explain why I can not find any. |
They don't exist that I'm aware of. It's something BASI have been working for some time.
I'd be interested to know where they are as well.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
That there may not be any doesn't mean there couldn't be. When you consider that most UK run ski schools have a only handful of instructors, it's impractical to take up some of their time in performing training duties for their own staff development when that would take away time from paying students. The centre de formation status is only really practical in a larger establishment. That's not to say your suggestion is wrong, but I don't think the lack of any, immediately precludes the possibility that there could be some if the situation arose.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| mooney058 wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, can you explain of how this is discriminatory? |
Oh FFS - if French law stops you being a training school if you're not a CdF and even if you only want to train in BASI you need to be majority French qualified to be a CdF - see the problem? & why the arbitrary number of 10? Wouldn't be to keep smaller French schools out as well?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I know for sure that Simon B explored the possibility of setting up as a training school in France. He was told that the only way that he could do that would be to have 10 fully qualified ISTDs (with Eurotest and EMS) on his permanent staff. He went out and identified 10 fully qualified ISTDs who would be prepared to work for him and went back to the French authorities. He was then told that that would not be acceptable because they had not qualified through the French system. Therefore, the French do not recognise the equivalence of the BASI (or any other) ISTD in relation to running a training school - which must be discriminatory.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
Hello, I’m just posting to say thanks so much to everyone for the overwhelming emails,txts and blogs of support . Its a very difficult time for me, and it was not an easy decision to reach to take on BASI, the association that I have grown up with, man and boy, but their behaviour and the way they have gone about things has left me with very little choice. I can’t say too much about the next stage, and I really hope that some sort of meaningful dialogue can begin which might prevent anything going further with all the costs associated with it but it does take two ! Thanks again to everyone for all the support “
Simon Butler
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, can you explain of how this is discriminatory? |
Oh FFS - if French law stops you being a training school if you're not a CdF and even if you only want to train in BASI you need to be majority French qualified to be a CdF - see the problem? & why the arbitrary number of 10? Wouldn't be to keep smaller French schools out as well? |
Is the french law stops you or are u just not happy withe requirements set for CdF? Its a regulated activity we are talking here, isn't it? How high-low standarts are set for regulated activity is a discretion of public authorities. schools and individuals willingbto provide their services are not prevented from it, isn't it? what if an auto business from , say Marocco, comes to the UK and try to implement its own MOT rules and standards complaining that it is small and discriminated ...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| mooney058 wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| mooney058 wrote: |
| @Dave of the Marmottes, can you explain of how this is discriminatory? |
Oh FFS - if French law stops you being a training school if you're not a CdF and even if you only want to train in BASI you need to be majority French qualified to be a CdF - see the problem? & why the arbitrary number of 10? Wouldn't be to keep smaller French schools out as well? |
Is the french law stops you or are u just not happy withe requirements set for CdF? Its a regulated activity we are talking here, isn't it? How high-low standarts are set for regulated activity is a discretion of public authorities. schools and individuals willingbto provide their services are not prevented from it, isn't it? what if an auto business from , say Marocco, comes to the UK and try to implement its own MOT rules and standards complaining that it is small and discriminated ... |
You are talking total rubbish !!
The French are under EU directives supposed to recognise equivalent qualifications, they DO ! recognise BASI L4 ISTD as equivalent to the French Diploma yet they do not recognise it as equivalent when it suits them when it comes to opening a training school to employ BASI L2 and L3 with ET.
Your talk re MOT is total dribble lets keep to the facts name the BASI training schools in France !
Or do you admit there are non and the reason is because the French do not recognise BASI L4 as equivalent to their Diploma, when it suits them.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
@speed098, I do have a good understanding of how eu law works, so stop it. Fr law does not prevent eu nationals from providing instruction services, if you think it does, can u say it explicitly and clearly? Could it be that I am not talking rubbish and its your limited understanding that makes it so confusing to you?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| mooney058 wrote: |
| @speed098, I do have a good understanding of how eu law works, so stop it. Fr law does not prevent eu nationals from providing instruction services, if you think it does, can u say it explicitly and clearly? Could it be that I am not talking rubbish and its your limited understanding that makes it so confusing to you? |
Or you again refuse to answer the question !
We are talking training schools so name them !
rsvpann has explained a specific case so answer that with regards to the EU law you seem to understand better than us.
Is it within EU law that the only training schools allowed, have to have at least ten instructors with the French Diploma and not ten instructors with the BASI L4 ISTD or any other EU members equivalent.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
As a note, there are plenty of BASI training schools in France, just none that are allowed to employ their trainees during the process.
France grants equivalence that any ISTD, or any stagière that has passed their Test Technique and is working towards their Eurotest in a limited span of years, may be employed in France. Perhaps since the BASI training process meets none of the equivalency requirements below ISTD, lower level instructors are justifiably not allowed to be employed while still in training.
If you wish to be trained thourgh the BASI system while in France, there is literally nothing stopping you.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
|
@speed098, can you name any outside France? Or any "non-training" British owned ski schools, for that matter? It is my understanding, from previous discussions, that a British instructor, no matter what his qualifications, would find it difficult (?impossible) to set up his own school in Austria. Why are some people just frothing at the mouth about French restrictive practices and ignoring others?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
|
pam w I can name very many in Switzerland, but being outside the EU I guess that doesn't really add or detract from the argument. In Austria it would also be possible and legal to set up a British ski school that employed BASI certified instructors of any level, although it is certainly made tricky by Austrian business laws. Italy have also recently relaxed their legal restrictions to working, so I'd still say that France are very much unique on their outlook to instruction as a profession.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
+1 SB would need to prove loss and cause - he can't.
As I've said repeatedly before the French training centre rules requiring a number of people and that qualified in that countries system are exactly the same in the UK in my profession and no doubt in others so if the French are acting illegally in this matter then so is the UK. I very much doubt my firm is acting illegally given the numerous lawyers we employ to deal with these matters so I doubt the French are. Given the number of convictions on multiple accounts -m not sure how much due process people want. I would expect to lose my licence with a criminal conviction - no questions asked as due process has already been served but this is a matter for the courts.
SB has had plenty of opportunity to sort this out in the past just like everyone else but he has instead just been serially convicted. His choice and he needs to look at why only he has a problem rather than blaming everyone else.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
I not aware of any British ski schools in Austria or Italian apart from say interski so France is the easiest - lots of others manage - only SB has a problem so down to him.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
@TTT, aren't you ignoring some key facts about the BASI board meeting, those who attended, and alleged ulterior motives? Prior to that, BASI has expressly sided with the ESF - it actively promoted the ESF and even co-published a French embassy statement - which raises questions about its national independence and impartiality. Non?
If Simon Butler takes this all the way to European justice, isn't his basic claim - that his top qualifications entitle him to work anywhere in Europe - valid? I mean, the question many are asking about this affair is really quite simple - his level of professional accreditation surely confounds all French assertions about the need for speed tests etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
More repetition:
The ones with a potential conflict declared that and were not party to the decision. Of course basi have to negotiate with the French.
SB does not have an equivalent qualification to the french as he has never done the capa or ET so has no right. I fully accept that others have been given an exemption. SB should have applied at time. I would like to see the matter resolved out of court and SB be able to work in France despite the fact that he has has publicly stated that he wants to take away my rights and those of millions. I would like to consider that they were ill considered emotional comments that he would be man enough to apologise for in the spirit os seeking a resolution.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| TTT wrote: |
More repetition:
The ones with a potential conflict declared that and were not party to the decision. Of course basi have to negotiate with the French.
SB does not have an equivalent qualification to the french as he has never done the capa or ET so has no right. I fully accept that others have been given an exemption. SB should have applied at time. I would like to see the matter resolved out of court and SB be able to work in France despite the fact that he has has publicly stated that he wants to take away my rights and those of millions. I would like to consider that they were ill considered emotional comments that he would be man enough to apologise for in the spirit os seeking a resolution. |
A few of the things you have been wrong about over the last 24hrs.
1) Someone was in the board meeting that should not have been there, for at least part of the discussion on SB's planned expulsion.
2) SB has stated that he has applied more than once. The French have confirmed at least one of those applications. BASI know nothing. Funny that.
3) You claimed yesterday''As I said before he doesn't have french equivalence (capa/et) so he has no right. Exemption was discretionary. ..."
I asked you to explain or backup your assertion of discretionary exemption which you were not able to do. Why? The reason is that there was no discretionary exemption. Fact.
BASI could issue an MoU on the basis of professional experience and training this morning if they wanted to. Nothing at all to stop that happening, nothing.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
@TTT I still can't decide if you are a mouth piece for BASI and being fed poor information or you just don't know enough about this to make assertions. Which one is it?
The application process is not time barred for those who missed the original applications for equivalence. It is as I write still open. I know of 3 applications from the original group who missed out that have been submitted in the last 9 months. No response from the French other than an acknowledgement of paperwork being received. No Carte Pro response though. Now that the new version of application has kicked in (Nov 13) one of those applications is going back in as they have to deal with it in a shorter time frame.
I do wonder why BASI are not supporting him the way they did for Smith, Monney, Arnold, Renouf, Lockerbie etc. etc. Well know cases where BASI members with or without BASI knowledge made challenges, got arrested and finally came out the other side having made a stance for the good of the membership.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skison wrote: |
| BASI could issue an MoU on the basis of professional experience and training this morning if they wanted to. Nothing at all to stop that happening, nothing. |
With or without the MoU, he still employed L2 and L3 instructors illegally. I don't doubt his qualification for himself, but even with an MoU, his company was not a centre de formation and so could not employ those instructors.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
More circles.
No one party to vote. The Salomon stuff is a red herring as ever professional instructor I know has a deal.
again . SB did not apply at time in according with the original prescribed process as others did.
I've explained many times. It's ET or FIS points in the EU rules which gives someone entitlement to equivalence. CAPA would also be equivalent in my view. SB does not have equivalent professional experience or training to the French as he has not done the CAPA or ET or required fis points. The French has told him he needs to do the ET. He hasn't. SB also has a criminal record which could also prevent him getting his carte pro.
Some people just want to believe the one sided propaganda from SB and his possy. I've read all the original relevant rules and the views of the other side and I'm not that gullible to believe the propaganda. People are still confused between what the rules actually say and what they believe the rules which most people have not read or understood should say. I'm not saying and never said that the rules are necessarily right as that is a matter of personal opinion. I read the rules without knowing anything about SB, or having a view and before the UKIP nonsense and it was clear to me that SB did not have a strong case, particularly with respect to using lower qualified staff. But as I've always said repeatedly my view is irrelevant. The French courts have repeatedly found SB guilty under the EU rules implemented under French law. I think the French courts know better than any of us on here and it is a strong call for someone to say they know better than a French judge with all that implies so it does seem people have their head in the sand. I personally don't agree with all the rules and think they should be opened up and basi is lobbying for this for example with respect to training centres but again basi don't set French law or EU rules.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| Quote: |
Salomon do sponsor lots of instructors. It's not about that. It's the Salomon reps position on the BASI board and relationship to BASS Megeve that is being questioned.
|
| Quote: |
No one party to vote. The Salomon stuff is a red herring as ever professional instructor I know has a deal.
|
He is more than a Salomon rep, and knowing him personally, he is won of the most honest and straight forward people you will every have the pleasure to meet. You are barking up the wrong tree with that line of thought!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
@skison, what is your basis for thinking that you know better than the French judges in numerous cases for numerous offences? I agree there was a original process which SB did not comply with and a list of additional exemptions has been subsequently agreed. SB does not have a right under the EU rules but I'm sure he would have been given a discretionary exemption if it was not for his criminal record which seems to be the distinguishing factor and one that is set out in the carte pro requirements. I think most people beyond here would agree that a criminal record is a valid reason for not being granted a license. As the DT said SB is not above the law.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
Yes the salomon sponsorship is a scurrilous allegation and the sort of thing that causes the antagonism with SB. The Megeve ski school is a perceived conflict of interest which was declared and these people were not party to the decision. In practice they are different markets. I really don't suppose they care what SB does from a personal business perspective other than SB'S criminal activities create a problem for everyone else working in France which everyone seems to forget. There are lots of other people who work as instructors without a problem and there are millions working across the EU without a problem despite what SB claims. There is a bigger picture than the business interests of one person which people seem to conveniently ignore.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
| Quote: |
I've explained many times. It's ET or FIS points in the EU rules which gives someone entitlement to equivalence.
|
ah so the EU sets the rules?
| Quote: |
Some people just want to believe the one sided propaganda from SB and his possy.
|
there's either that or believe the one sided propaganda from a BASI insider, oh sorry, someone who's nopt actualyl a BASI insider but has to go by a pseudonym because he and his "insider" doesn't want to get found out. 
forget what my predictions were now.. off to scroll back...
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
It is indeed the EU. I freely admit that they have been strongly influenced by France as well as Italy, Austria and Germany. Tis the way the world works.
I'm not an insider at all. My views to the extent they are my views are my own. If it was mainly basi people posting on here saying that SB was entirely wrong I would be posting on here hang on that is not the whole story as well. Why SB hasn't got a grandfather exemption, the fairness of the EU rules, the validity of the license removal process are entirely fair debateable questions. They are 2 sides to this story but no one has given me a valid argument why they know better than the French judges or that SB has complied with the EU rules or local labour laws. I'm not the one here pretending to know better than the French judges or all that such views imply.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
These so-called "grandfathers' rights" - the exemption to the speed test granted to more senior BASI instructors working in France - are part of the problem, aren't they? A kind of convenient stitch-up concerning a test that's surely an irrelevance to ski teaching.
Simon Butler's non-acquisition of these rights - whether he wanted them or not - is surely not the issue here. It seems to be purely raised as a red herring - to try and distract from the real issue(s) and to suggest that SB wasn't willing to be 'in with the boys'. [Obviously 'girls' got them too]
Maybe he thinks the speed test is nonsense, and 'grandfalthers' rights' are actually 'wrongs'.
Or have I got that wrong? He's welcome to comment, if his lawyers will allow him to comment.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 24-11-14 13:33; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| TTT wrote: |
| @skison, what is your basis for thinking that you know better than the French judges in numerous cases for numerous offences? I agree there was a original process which SB did not comply with and a list of additional exemptions has been subsequently agreed. SB does not have a right under the EU rules but I'm sure he would have been given a discretionary exemption if it was not for his criminal record which seems to be the distinguishing factor and one that is set out in the carte pro requirements. I think most people beyond here would agree that a criminal record is a valid reason for not being granted a license. As the DT said SB is not above the law. |
I don't know better than French judges. I'm not arguing French law. His current challenge is why he is illegal when he should have had a Carte Pro like the others. And why does he have a criminal record? It's a round in circles argument because no one has come out and detailed the reasons.
If you know he has not been given it because of a criminal record then that's progress as I'm not sure SB or BASI don't know that is the reason.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
| Fattes13 wrote: |
| Quote: |
Salomon do sponsor lots of instructors. It's not about that. It's the Salomon reps position on the BASI board and relationship to BASS Megeve that is being questioned.
|
| Quote: |
No one party to vote. The Salomon stuff is a red herring as ever professional instructor I know has a deal.
|
He is more than a Salomon rep, and knowing him personally, he is won of the most honest and straight forward people you will every have the pleasure to meet. You are barking up the wrong tree with that line of thought! |
Who is barking up the wrong tree.
I only countered TTT's biased comment. To say it was just a case of a Salomon rep is not filling in the blanks as TTT is prone to do. I have no idea what SB's point is with the person involved but it should have been made clearer that the said Salomon rep has an important role within BASI instead of brushing it off as a comment on Salomon sponsoring a Megeve ski school.
TTT goes on about people supporting one side of an argument yet steadfastly refuses to give the correct information when making a point. In fact often ignores the facts completely.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
| TTT wrote: |
I'm not an insider at all. My views to the extent they are my views are my own. |
I don't believe you. Without a doubt you are being fed the propaganda that you are so against when others have an opinion that is not yours or your insiders. Well the bad news (for you) is it's often incorrect.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Comedy Goldsmith wrote: |
| These so-called "grandfathers' rights" - the exemption to the speed test granted to more senior BASI instructors working in France - are part of the problem, aren't they? A kind of convenient stitch-up concerning a test that's surely an irrelevance to ski teaching. |
Indeed. Either people learning to ski need "speed test" qualified instructors, or they don't.
Being bought off smells very bad. It may be politics, but it was bound to end up... right here.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| TTT wrote: |
SB does not have equivalent professional experience or training to the French as he has not done the CAPA or ET or required fis points. The French has told him he needs to do the ET. He hasn't. SB also has a criminal record which could also prevent him getting his carte pro.
. |
Seriously??
The rules you are so adamant to apply say otherwise. The holes you are digging are getting bigger.
BASI could grant an MOU - no ET required.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| skison wrote: |
I don't know better than French judges. I'm not arguing French law. His current challenge is why he is illegal when he should have had a Carte Pro like the others. And why does he have a criminal record? It's a round in circles argument because no one has come out and detailed the reasons.
|
But his expulsion was based on the fact that he illegally employed L2 and L3 instructors in France. With or without a Carte Pro, that would still have been illegal.
There's two separate issues here.
1: SB's own qualification with regards to ISTD status, grandfather rights the ET and associated stuff.
2: Membership of BASI being terminated for employing L2 and L3 instructors in France which is illegal and so "bringing the organisation into disrepute", which would have been the case even if point 1 was done and dusted to everyone's agreement.
He has a criminal record for point 2 irrespective of any record due to point 1.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I am not against the ET as a test of ability especially in consideration to instructing at higher levels, ie advanced skiers and above.
But honestly does anyone here believe it is a safety issue? what in this modern era an instructor will leave his or her class go speeding down the mountain to report or to help at an incident.
It is there to restrict the access to the highest level of qualification so as there are not thousands of L4 BASI or equivalents vying for work be it in France, Italy, Germany or any other nation.
I am not against them wanting to protect the higher levels to try and make it that they can earn a living wage, I am against the ridiculous argument that the test is for safety. What have the French and every other nation plus the EU never seen a device called a mobile phone or a two way radio, both will get information around the mountain much quicker than anyone on skis or snowboard. this would make it possible for help to arrive much quicker.
There are many jobs especially in instructing/teaching that do not have these restrictions ie not needing to be one of the elite only to be able to teach that activity/subject to the required level for the level of the student. Those who are good at teaching do well normally, they are the ones best able to make a living wage and that is the way it should be. Why should Johnny racer who only wants to wiz round the mountain, is fed up of these slow intermediates holding up his enjoyment be able to make a living wage over someone who has immeasurable patience is willing to adapt to the students needs and happy to persevere on even the smallest details to best help the student.
I know not all high level skiers are like Johnny racer just as there are some lower level skiers who are. The point is teaching ability is the best way to assess someone's ability to earn a living wage lets have people who love helping overs enjoy and improve at this sport be it's true ambassador's not someone no matter their ability who would rather spend the day wizzing round the mountain begrudging the fact they are being held back by their student/s.
SB directly or indirectly is helping to stand up for those who want to instruct and love to help others. Yes he is standing up for himself and his agenda but so are BASI and so are the ESF so if he is wrong so are they. No party is innocent in this probably no party will come out of this looking as a deserved victor.
SB should not have employed L2 and L3 instructors just as he should have been allowed to set up a training school with 9 or more fellow L4 ISTD instructors. So many on here keep going on about his criminal convictions yet do not want to acknowledge the reasons why he received these convictions.
The UK are a member of the EU as such BASI should not let the French ESF influence the EU directives any more than they influence the directives themselves. Size of a nation, size of it's ski area number of instructors etc, whever me you or anyone else here likes it or not are irrelevant in the EU we are supposed to be equals. Some want to be more equal than others and will if allowed by weaker nations unwilling to stand up for themselves and their rights.
The ESF have hoodwinked the EU by comparing skiing with two sports, skydiving and scuba diving. Both these sports do not allow people to go hire a plane or charter a dive boat and do the activity without checking the level of qualification of those taking part. But skiing someone can go to a resort buy a lift pass hire gear or buy the gear get on a gondola go to the top set off and kill themselves or worse someone else as well. If this happened in sky diving the charter/skydiving centre would be help accountable as would a dive centre yet ski resorts and lift company's etc are not.
My last point if the ET was as the ESF say for safety you would have to retest every so many years and you could never gift someone a test because safety requirements would make that unsafe and leave open a route for litigation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
My views and your views are just that views and don't change the reality. If your views are correct then why hasn't SB been able to convince French judges on numerous occasions on numerous charges? The fact that SB had one successful not proven appeal suggests to me that the French judges are not corrupt. Of course the ECJ may eventually decide the case otherwise and the EU has openly admitted that SB regarding his own qualifications is an anomaly rightly or wrongly which they are investigating. I'm only saying that my reading of the EU rules coincides with the French judges and no one has come up with a convincing argument under the EU rules regarding employing deemed underqualified staff and no one has come up with a denial of the employing staff illegally charge which all may be sufficient to deny SB his carte pro.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
