 Poster: A snowHead
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| Quote: |
I really can see the Brit TO's closing ranks and encouraging clients to go anywhere else bar the ESF for lessons.
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I always thought most TOs punted (pimped?) their clients off to whoever was offering the biggest slice of the action irrespective of how sh1te they were.
Then again, I am in the world sceptic rankings having made a point of studious life long progression from endless contact with charlatans.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, I don't get the impression that French people give up lessons as early as British ones do and quite a few seem to make sure their kids go right through the ESF progression (which does mean they end up pretty good, actually).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
| I have quite a few friends who ski no better now than they did 30 years ago, and they're perfectly happy with that. |
| spud wrote: |
They have a few lessons early on and once they can get down a piste many of them are content to just do that from that point on.
More time spent with their family or friends 'just skiing'. |
And if the mountains had no pistes other than nursery slopes, they would need to have more skills and to ski more regularly to hone those skills but what's just as likely is that fewer people would spend time with their family or friends 'just skiing' when they found it too demanding. Consequently, many ski lifts and areas would never have opened in the first place and the opportunities for 'enthusiasts' would be fewer now.
| spud wrote: |
| It's only a small minority that wish to 'progress and learn'. A lot of this comes down to equipment...it's so much easier to use these days. |
I agree but wouldn't want to pass judgement on those that don't want to 'progress and learn' and doubt that 'a lot of this comes down to equipment' being 'so much easier to use these days'. Like pam w, I have friends and family who started on 'straights' in the 1980's and despite having skied 40-60 weeks, aren't super strong skiers 30 years later because they just aren't used to challenging conditions.
Basically, people know what they like and they like what they know and you can't really blame them for that, especially when the average skier doesn't actually need or want too much of a challenge. You only have to look at the standard of the average Brit skier at unpisted 'enthusiast' areas such as Glencoe or La Grave and compare them with the average Brit at say Val D'Isere or St Anton and it's easy to see the consequent difference.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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pam w, I didn't say the majority use Brit ski schools. Maybe I didn't phrase it very well but I meant that the majority would like myself not be that interested in speaking much of the local language. I'd agree that most probably don't have lessons and that most of those who do probably have them arranged through tour ops and cheaper ski schools. I suspect though that the majority would prefer British ski schools if they understood the difference they make and could afford them.
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| spud wrote: |
Nowadays you can get away with murder on certain equipment... especially offpiste.
Todays society is all about instant gratification...they want results straight away without putting much effort in. |
Absolutely spot on. I was only saying the same this morning, as I made breakfast for the kids - just some water drawn from the well half a mile away, and toats made from bread I'd baked last night using flour I had grown, milled and ground myself and some weird-looking preserve left over from last harvest.
The kids were moaning a bit, but I told them to save it because that six miles to school wasn't going to walk itself.
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By the way, in case you're wondering, 'toats' is like toast, only more authentic and harder.
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northernsoulboy, 
Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night half an hour before I went to bed, drink a cup of sulphuric acid, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad and our mother would kill us and dance about on our graves singing Hallelujah ..... etc.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Having converted long ago to fats OP I was compelled to use a GS ski last week and was really pleased that there was little difference in the results; I even remembered a downhill stem to start in some heavy warm clag.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| mcspreader wrote: |
| Quote: |
I really can see the Brit TO's closing ranks and encouraging clients to go anywhere else bar the ESF for lessons.
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I always thought most TOs punted (pimped?) their clients off to whoever was offering the biggest slice of the action irrespective of how sh1te they were. |
Don't think anyone will argue with that, unless it's the small independents who give a toss about the guest experience. ESF are definitely the cheapest, so also the easiest to tack commission on without guests moaning/noticing. Also the only school big enough to guarantee instructors will be available for people who only asked for them on a coach a few hours ago.
Always seemed to me that the holidaymaker attitude to ski lessons is a bit like driving a car; once you've met the minimum required standard you're good to go so why spend a fortune on pushing yourself on a skidpan/race course/London bus?
It's true that most French kids go all the way through the ESF etoiles and badges, but after that as grown-ups they won't take any more lessons unless it's hiring a guide.
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| spud wrote: |
I also learnt in the 80's on long skinny skis... you had to have lessons or you would kill yourself... |
Well I never, I guess I must be dead & never even noticed. I'll book into the crematorium today.
P.S. I pretty much agree with some other points made here. I've skied well enough to ski with my friends and that's what I wanted to do. More or less end of story. Maybe, at this point, I'm interested in improvement, before I become too decrepit for it ever to be possible. I'm not actually sure yet whether I'm sufficiently motivated.
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You know it makes sense.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| mcspreader wrote: |
| Quote: |
I really can see the Brit TO's closing ranks and encouraging clients to go anywhere else bar the ESF for lessons.
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I always thought most TOs punted (pimped?) their clients off to whoever was offering the biggest slice of the action irrespective of how sh1te they were. |
Don't think anyone will argue with that, unless it's the small independents who give a toss about the guest experience. ESF are definitely the cheapest, so also the easiest to tack commission on without guests moaning/noticing. Also the only school big enough to guarantee instructors will be available for people who only asked for them on a coach a few hours ago.
Always seemed to me that the holidaymaker attitude to ski lessons is a bit like driving a car; once you've met the minimum required standard you're good to go so why spend a fortune on pushing yourself on a skidpan/race course/London bus?
It's true that most French kids go all the way through the ESF etoiles and badges, but after that as grown-ups they won't take any more lessons unless it's hiring a guide. |
If the big TO's didn't give a toss, why then did they back Le Ski over the Ski hosting saga and court case?
They didn't have to and a lot of the hosting problem came about by the ESF sticking their nose in and stirring things...However right or wrong.
I've spoken to people this season working as Reps and Chalet hosts for large British Tour Ops and according to them it was already being spoken about in Management meetings in Resort.
So perhaps things are changing.... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| spud wrote: |
I've spoken to people this season working as Reps and Chalet hosts for large British Tour Ops and according to them it was already being spoken about in Management meetings in Resort.
So perhaps things are changing.... |
Wrong end of stick: They clearly give a toss about losing chalet hosting, they don't give a toss about the quality of instruction a guest receives. I'm talking about the mega-TOs such as Crystal here where a guest ski lesson is about important as which laundry takes care of the sheets; cheapest wins every time.
As for management meetings in resort, don't make me laugh! Discussion is one thing, they're great it but most resort managers aren't even authorised to buy vacuum cleaners when one breaks; every single bean is analysed back in London, that's where the decisions come from.
edit: Only way I see a major TO going against the ESF is to maximise publicity in the Daily Mail etc. Even then it's conditional on if they can find a large enough school/franchise across all their resorts.
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Poster: A snowHead
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northernsoulboy, very good. 
| spud wrote: |
I also learnt in the 80's on long skinny skis... you had to have lessons or you would kill yourself...and put some effort into it.
Nowadays you can get away with murder on certain equipment... especially offpiste.
Some have turned up and said they could ski...apparantly they were awesome on certain computer games...says it all really... 
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Although it also depends on the skill and aptitude of the individual... One quiet Wednesday, when we were off to MK to the Airkix windtunnel and thought we might as well catch a bit of pre-season ski practice while there, a friend’s son asked if he could come along with us to the snowdome to snowboard. So I explained how he'd need lessons to be able to control his turns and stop safely. He said it'll be okay because he could skateboard, roller skate and bmx. Okay but if I think you’re unsafe I’ll stop you and if you get thrown off, or waste you mum’s money face planting in the snow, don't blame me says I...
So knowingly, after seeing lots of ‘proper’ snowboarders struggle with the button lifts in resort, I thought he'll be lucky to make it to the top, never mind make it down in one go...
So after falling off the lift twice, he hitched up his baggy trousers, then managed that fine... then he was off , looking a bit shakey for a couple of runs, but he looked no different to the other half a dozen kids on the slope that day ...! I was amazed.
So I agree not everyone needs to take years of lessons any more..
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| spud wrote: |
I've spoken to people this season working as Reps and Chalet hosts for large British Tour Ops and according to them it was already being spoken about in Management meetings in Resort.
So perhaps things are changing.... |
Wrong end of stick: They clearly give a toss about losing chalet hosting, they don't give a toss about the quality of instruction a guest receives. I'm talking about the mega-TOs such as Crystal here where a guest ski lesson is about important as which laundry takes care of the sheets; cheapest wins every time.
As for management meetings in resort, don't make me laugh! Discussion is one thing, they're great it but most resort managers aren't even authorised to buy vacuum cleaners when one breaks; every single bean is analysed back in London, that's where the decisions come from.
edit: Only way I see a major TO going against the ESF is to maximise publicity in the Daily Mail etc. Even then it's conditional on if they can find a large enough school/franchise across all their resorts. |
Funny you should mention Crystal... I've worked for them as a Host, Rep and Manager in the past.
Still got many contacts their.
When they are having to give back money to clients hand over fist because of complaints about Ski Instruction, then they do sit up and take notice.
I think changes will slowly happen...
Ski hosting wasn't a major service with Crystal... Reps offered a bit, but nothing special.
I'll agree to disagree with you, regarding directives and discussions...it wasn't my experience with them.
I do however think they stink when it comes to the way they deal with some of their younger employees.
Do you or have you worked for them?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| WayneC wrote: |
looking a bit shakey for a couple of runs, but he looked no different to the other half a dozen kids on the slope that day ...! I was amazed.
So I agree not everyone needs to take years of lessons any more.. |
Not necessarily doing it "right" though. Skateboarding is a transferable skill I would have thought so no real surprise. I once met a guy from Hawaii snowboarding. Second day, no lessons riding everywhere on the mountain in decent style. Had surfed since he could stand up though so fixed to a board with bindings with non-moving H20 underfoot was a doodle.
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spud, no, plucked Crystal out of the air as an example to illustrate size, not working practices; perhaps I shouldn't have done so. I've worked in rep/admin/management roles for three different TOs of varying sizes, largest being Mark Warner. Also nearly worked for SHG but turned it down post-interview as I didn't like the sound of them. As a rep I clearly didn't like apologising for a bad instructor over whom I've no control, but of course in the client's eyes I recommended him over all the others, that's the problem on the ground.
Anyway, never heard of anyone refunding lessons but yes that certainly would get the attention of the folk in London. Kudos to them for doing that. Still, I imagine the number of refunds is minuscule given how many tens of thousands actually take holidays with them. Someone will work it all out financially and take a decision; think of car makers analysing the risk of a recall - would the potential lawsuits outweigh the cost of refitting them..?
Would be more than happy to see change, at any pace.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Sort of crossing over into other threads running, but what do you do with kids when they have got to a good general standard? Mine are all competent skiers and have no real desire to progress further, and with only a week a year what's the point they just want to have fun.
Mrs B and I can ski ok, know our limits and enjoy what we do - again 1-week a year I'm not going to bother with lessons.
Sure all of us could progress and benefit from lessons, but no real reason to do so.
Maybe ESF, and others, need to start thinking about more flexible approaches - 2 or 3 mornings for improvers, turn up sessions that sort of thing. I jsut think the days of 5/6 mornings having lessons are over for a lot of people.
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Boris,
With 4/5 of you in the same boat I think you have answered your own question. You have a ready made group for whatever lesson you want, whenever you want it.
I do like the idea of a "turn up and form a group" type session. Perhaps that is a service the TOs could start to coordinate / offer instead of hosting. That might help them to get the ESF onside as well.
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
spud, no, plucked Crystal out of the air as an example to illustrate size, not working practices; perhaps I shouldn't have done so. I've worked in rep/admin/management roles for three different TOs of varying sizes, largest being Mark Warner. Also nearly worked for SHG but turned it down post-interview as I didn't like the sound of them. As a rep I clearly didn't like apologising for a bad instructor over whom I've no control, but of course in the client's eyes I recommended him over all the others, that's the problem on the ground.
Anyway, never heard of anyone refunding lessons but yes that certainly would get the attention of the folk in London. Kudos to them for doing that. Still, I imagine the number of refunds is minuscule given how many tens of thousands actually take holidays with them. Someone will work it all out financially and take a decision; think of car makers analysing the risk of a recall - would the potential lawsuits outweigh the cost of refitting them..?
Would be more than happy to see change, at any pace. |
I'm with you on that... Change and keeping pro active is a must these days.
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musher, actually this year the boys and I had a private lesson for boarding and Mrs B and daughter had a private ski lesson - worked really well and would do it again. I think we got more benefit out of them.
Certainly daughter who shot through 3* and was awarded Bronze by end of lesson
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Er ....having more fun is the whole point of lessons. The better you get the more fun you have. Most holiday skiers can get around fine but are missing out on the joys of carving, bump runs and powder skiing. Instructors and punters who don't see lessons as a primarily a fun learning experience rather than a chore are missing the point and should find a different instructor or a different attitude.
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but are missing out on the joys of carving, bump runs and powder skiing.
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Says who 
I know a number of people for whom skiing is only part of the holiday, my 75/77 year old parents for a start, who are happy pottering for a few hours a day.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I was not suggesting for one minute that people are not enjoying themselves after a few lessons otherwise why would they come back each year. Each to their own. Just that in my own experience as a result of good quality fun lessons I know I have more thrills and enjoy my skiing more than I did before. I also know my enjoyment is obvious to my friends who now want more lessons. I can now have a great days skiing in a white out, icy and bumpy conditions when the dramatically lower numbers on the slopes suggest that others are not having fun skiing. I just think skiing should be as fun as possible for all. I certainly would not advocate lessons for people who are safe and perfectly happy with the way they are skiing unless they want to. Equally I see a lot of people struggling or who are limited who I think would have more fun if they invested in good quality lessons. On topic that could come from whatever level of instructor in whatever country depending on your ability.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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TTT, see your point and largely agree with you - which gets me back to point that unless their is a fundamental change in nature of lessons people won't join. I.e. an ok skier may not shell out severl £hundred for a weeks lessons, but may cough up £100 for 2 mornings
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in a white out, icy and bumpy conditions when the dramatically lower numbers on the slopes suggest that others are not having fun skiing.
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My parents are having fun drinking in a bar - I'm not sure whether they have it right or me
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| Boris wrote: |
| ... which gets me back to point that unless their is a fundamental change in nature of lessons people won't join. I.e. an ok skier may not shell out severl £hundred for a weeks lessons, but may cough up £100 for 2 mornings |
Plenty of ski schools offer clinics running for two or three sessions rather than a full week. NewGen, TDC, BASS for example all run sessions which run for two or three sessions for more experienced skiers.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Boris wrote: |
| ... which gets me back to point that unless their is a fundamental change in nature of lessons people won't join. I.e. an ok skier may not shell out severl £hundred for a weeks lessons, but may cough up £100 for 2 mornings |
Plenty of ski schools offer clinics running for two or three sessions rather than a full week. NewGen, TDC, BASS for example all run sessions which run for two or three sessions for more experienced skiers. |
There was no need to block book anything with the ESF in Val D'Isere last week for their level 4 groups and they were quite happy to take my money at 5.30 the afternoon before and even one day at 9.00 am the morning of a 9.30 start for single sessions. That was a perfect arrangement for me and gave the very best value out of the powder and sunshine days.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar, true - but not remember a lot of casual (non SH) people won't know these places exist.
And New Gen are not much use for children unless you happen to go in school holidays  They obviously don't believe in taking kids out of school as they have never been running their kids lessons when we have been outside holidays
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Boris wrote: |
| rob@rar, true - but not remember a lot of casual (non SH) people won't know these places exist. |
Yes that's right, despite what ski schools do in terms of marketing (as I know from personal experience). The big multi-resort schools like NewGen and BASS will spend their marketing budget as well as they can, and even a cursory glance at their websites will see what's on offer. But it's a holiday and if people have no interest in taking lessons I don't think they should be frowned upon.
| Boris wrote: |
| And New Gen are not much use for children unless you happen to go in school holidays They obviously don't believe in taking kids out of school as they have never been running their kids lessons when we have been outside holidays |
Simple question of supply and demand. NewGen will run kids' lessons if there are enough kids to run a viable group. I'm pretty sure they run a more extensive kids' programme in Courchevel 1650 (and I know BASS do in Les Gets) than NewGen runs in Vallandry as those schools are serving a larger British market than Les Arcs/Vallandry. No value judgement about term-time holidays, just not enough Brit kids around to run a range of options for kids.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You learn something new every day. I didn't know that if you booked a ski holiday with Crystal you had to use their nominated ski school. I thought you just went to the ESF or whatever, office and booked or booked on line.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| johnE wrote: |
| You learn something new every day. I didn't know that if you booked a ski holiday with Crystal you had to use their nominated ski school. I thought you just went to the ESF or whatever, office and booked or booked on line. |
Quite so, and it's well known that if you don't take their lessons then they wee wee in your breakfast. I've also known people to be thrown out of chalets for using a different ski school.
It's like lift passes, some people do their own thing, some buy lessons as part of their package, or later on the coach or in the chalet for convenience and because they don't know or care anything about rival schools. Obviously a forum dedicated to snowsports isn't the place most of these people hang out, so it's a bit skewd, however if you buy on the coach you'll get a voucher for the ESF, which is only obviously, valid with the ESF. If you want something you can take to any school in resort, it would be called 'money'.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The thing is tour operators get a percentage kick back from ski school sales just as they get on lift ticket sales they offer a small discount to their clients and keep the rest. All good "honest" business really. Plus individual Reps may get something from restaurants etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
A mate who's a pro surfer walked up to the top of our local hill when it snowed a few years back and managed to complete three runs on a snowboard with only ne fall - in wellies!!! Fit talented lad with the balance of a cat.....
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And someone I know who was a Sea going water ski racer and was on his first ski holiday did a black run within his first few runs, he went 'strayyyytt darrrn' pretty sure he could handle it, but I for one wouldn't want to be on the same mountain as him. I certainly don't want to stop people enjoying themselves but would prefer a modicum of control and understanding of the mountain.
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ansta1, The analogue is a bit broken - good surfers have far more fine control on a snowboard than most lesson taught punters as they are used to steering a bigger board in a harsher environment attached only by the power of wax. An ordinary groomer is relatively speaking pretty easy.
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FAQ
