 Poster: A snowHead
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Good. If there are talented individuals from those countries, let them live their dream.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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If there are talented individuals from those countries, let them live their dream
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Indeed. And those are top skiing nations - let face it, Britain has no comparative advantage as an exporter of ski instructors. Just saying that the removal of barriers to competition would not necessarily help British instructors, or would-be instructors.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| pam w wrote: |
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Because of competition from instructors from ski nations such as Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia and Slovenia who can often speak a number of European languages and who are willing to work for lower wages and poorer conditions. |
The removal of the eurotest would increase the number of British instructors (or instructors from wherever) who are able to work in France. Whether they can get a job is another matter but they would be entitled to work in France nonetheless.
A good instructor is a good instructor and you certainly don't need to have the eurotest to be one. Inside-Out skiing being a good example.
I find it ridiculous that such a test even exists. It's got absolutely nothing to do with safety and it is not relevant to teaching 99.9% of people who have lessons.
While we are at it: I wonder what qualifications you need in France to take clients into a snowpark? I very much doubt that you need to be able to hit a pro line kicker.
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| pam w wrote: |
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Because of competition from instructors from ski nations such as Bulgaria, Croatia, Serbia and Slovenia who can often speak a number of European languages and who are willing to work for lower wages and poorer conditions. |
They maybe able to speak more languages, but Ski Schools have to pay rates based on qualifications, not just minimum wages setdown by law.
They have a budget and work out how many Instructors they can afford, what certified levels they are and at what pay rates are required.
| miranda wrote: |
| Where do you ski when on holiday spud? |
Blimey...haven't been on a 'ski holiday' as such for ages. I've tended to do seasons in one resort and then done long weekends in other near resorts.
I've skied in lots of different Countries though...
France, Spain, Andorra, Italy, Germany, Austria, Switzerland, Canada, New Zealand.
I really like Italy and Switzerland though for alround holiday fun. But prefer working in Canada.
I've worked seasons in France as well. Very mixed...From my experience, those resorts that have hoards of unruely Brits charging about the place, generally being loud, obnoxious and drunken...then that's where the French locals aren't too fond of us. Other places where ski lovers reside rather than party animals...then it's been a warm welcome.
Tbh... Many Brits abroad in general don't help themselves. I've been embarrassed to call myself English sometimes. I don't blame some French for not wanting us their.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ski Schools have to pay rates based on qualifications
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I bet there are plenty of people in Bulgaria, Slovenia, etc with good qualifications! More than in the UK, I'd say.
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I don't blame some French for not wanting us their
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I have never got the impression of not being wanted - and various British people I have met here have all commented on how friendly and welcoming people have been. The resort is keen to have more British visitors before they tend to come in the "quiet periods" - whereas the French (who constitute the overwhelming majority) tend to cluster their visits in those peak 5 or 6 weeks. They are, for example, providing much more information in English than was the case ten years ago.
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| pam w wrote: |
Is there an argument that there are so many French people, in mountain areas, who want to be ski instructors and are very good skiers that there has to be some means of restricting numbers, given that there are only so many paying customers? The alternative, I suppose, would be to have an over-supply of instructors which would mean that some (just people with no family responsibilities and/or no intention of making it a career) would be prepared to do the job for a few bob a week, a scuddy room shared with three others and a free lift pass. 
The French rules obviously are protectionism but it's just a means of restricting competition and pushing up prices, is it? Private lessons with French instructors in ESF or ESIs seem to cost less than those with most of their British competitors. |
I don't think so. From what I've seen (only two weeks experience in France [PdS] though), the average Austrian is a better skier than the average Frenchman - no real surprise given pretty much all of Austria is within a couple of hours drive of a ski resort, whereas many French people live no-where near the Alps and ski one week a year or less. So in theory, even more competition here than in France.
I know many people who teach skiing as a (proper) career here, raising families and kids too. Despite the number of people who teach for just a couple of seasons, it's still perfectly possible to make it a career here - and there are no Eurotest barriers. Plenty of Bulgarians teaching over here too, many of them excellent skiers and teachers. No '6 to a room' and low wages either, junior instructors often share a room between two, but the senior (longer working) guys get a room to themselves - heavily subsidised by the ski school.
The locals will always have an advantage anyway - as property/houses tend to get passed down within families (and many have some form of rental income on top of instructor wages) building a 'proper (sustainable) life' will always be easier for them than for incomers.
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There's a difference between protecting jobs for the right people (good), against protecting jobs for the wrong people (bad). This has nothing to do with french vs. british (I hope I have been equally critical of both ) it's about the best instructors being successful both in terms of their own careers and in client satisfaction.
There's a suggestion that those of us who view the Eurotest (and BASI's support of it) as farcical are therefore advocating a race to the bottom of pay and standards. From my perspective, nothing could be further from the truth. I absolutely believe in only allowing the creme-de-la-creme to become instructors, and defending their pay and conditions. What I don't agree with is that the Eurotest achieves this goal.
Good ski-instructors need a high all-round technical skiing level; a high level of natural teaching ability coupled with the capacity to learn, retain and reproduce the syllabus; to be fully motivated to be a ski teacher for the right reasons (not just an ex-racer with no other easy option); and to be able to communicate near-fluently in the language of their clients, and pretty well in the language of the country where they work.
The ISIA level of most country's progressions more-or-less satisfy the skiing and teaching elements, leaving motivation and languages as under-emphasised, under-examined, and under-valued skills in the current system. What should be particularly unimportant is the ability to ski gates quickly, to have to spend tens of thousands of pounds to learn to ski gates quickly, or to be part of the negotiating delegation of a non-alpine instructors association for personal gain.
Yes it's a big ask for non-native english speakers to be fluent in english, but if that's who they want to teach then it short-changes the guests to not require it. Unfortunately for french instructors a large proportion of skiers who take lessons here are english-speaking only, so either make fluency a pre-requisite or concentrate on developing the home market. Scrapping or reducing the standard of the teste-technique/Eurotest would fix most of the problems with lack of motivation and poor lesson quality, by remove the bias towards people qualifying with the wrong skill-set.
Killing off the ESF "liste de priorité" system which sucks so much revenue and talent out of the french schools, and opening up the instructor supply for the british-owned schools, combined with the above changes in qualifications would make quality instruction affordable and desirable for a far greater proportion of the guests. The resulting higher volumes, satisfaction levels, and raised general level of technique and hence safety on the hill would be a win-win for everybody involved.
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shep, interesting about the languages. I thought there was a 'second language' component to ISIA?
In the Austrian system, even at the first level, you have to pass a written test in both German and English (unless your mother tongue is English, in which case you only have to do the test in German).
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An instructor for what was then known as Magic in Motion ski school in Meribel told me that all their instructors had to take an English test during the season and if they didn't pass they weren't allowed to work with them any more. Could be an exaggeration, but in any case sounds a bit stricter than the ESF self-appraisal method shep mentioned elsewhere.
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Unfortunately for french instructors a large proportion of skiers who take lessons here are english-speaking only
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I'd be surprised if that were true of France in general. The vast majority of those who take lessons in my area are French speaking (French and Francophone Belgians) probably followed by Dutch (though they are often good enough linguists to take lessons in a variety of languages), with a smattering of Italians and Brits.
I do agree language requirements ought to be far higher up the list of requirements. One very senior BASS instructor told me some years ago he had been very nervous about his French language proficiency interview. When he went in he was invited (in French) to sit down. when he did so the guy grinned, shook his hand and told him he'd passed. Steve Angus, in his thread, reports on his determined efforts to learn French but I don't think all his British instructor colleagues are as conscientious.
On another thread someone who was hoping to spend a season working in Japan seemed to need telling that he should make an effort to learn some basic Japanese!
Anyone working in a public-facing job such as ski instruction ought to speak at least two languages including the native language of the country. For foreign instructors this could mean a decent working knowledge, rather than fluency, but needs to be sufficient to deal, for example, with accidents and incidents on piste, possibly converse on a poor radio connection with rescuers etc as well as general courtesy and good public relations locally.
Imagine a Scottish mountain rescue team who found themselves unable to communicate effectively with, say, a Slovenian leading a climb where things had gone badly wrong. They'd not be impressed!
(though, of course, it's an improbable example as the Slovenian would probably have put years of effort into acquiring decent English).
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Do BASI qualifications include a second language requirement?
My early ski lessons were with a Norwegian and an Austrian instructor. Neither spoke much English but in both cases it was adequate to do the job - they had learnt the essentials (Hans, the Norwegian, did a lot of "face ze walley")
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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clarky999, Yes I'm sure there is although each country's system must vary. I don't know if the french system has a compulsory module, if so to what level or how it is tested. I do know every single instructor on Avoriaz ESF has ticked their "I can teach in english" column on the liste de priorité, but there are only a handful capable of explaining skiing technique and bio-mechanics the way a native speaker would and that clients have a right to expect. Some might say that's not fair, but it's a much more relevant way of setting the bar than shall we say gate-skiing?
I'd like to see a compulsory pass with an independent TEFL board, of fluency in "teaching language(s)" and basic "country of working language(s)" recorded on an instructors log-book; and for the corresponding entries to need to be there in order for the guy to get the job or take those clients. The Eurotest is very demanding and heavily policed, there's no reason why language skills couldn't be if the will were there.
Unfortunately the current system is about a career path for the "sons and daughters of the valley" who have reached the end of their racing life, many having spent more time in race-camp than they have at school. It's a competitive world that we all have to live in and those youngsters and their parents and trainers ought to have to prepare for life beyond racing throughout their programme (some of them do). Currently there is no will to exclude that type of applicant for poor language skills, or for showing no ambition to teach until the racing is over; whereas a non-racing perhaps adult starter with super motivation, great language and teaching skills, a high level of all-round skiing etc. can have their ambitions thwarted by this unfair speed-test and the vested interests which support it.
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| Quote: |
Do BASI qualifications include a second language requirement?
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For ISIA Level 3 yep you need a 2nd language and it has to be an Alpine European one. German, French, Spanis, Italian
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You know it makes sense.
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| pam w wrote: |
My early ski lessons were with a Norwegian and an Austrian instructor. Neither spoke much English but in both cases it was adequate to do the job - they had learnt the essentials (Hans, the Norwegian, did a lot of "face ze walley") |
Surely this depends what "the job" is? If the job is to enable and facilitate all the self analysis and awareness skills a skier needs to improve then following or copying of a few basic commands is a long way short IMV.
The best modern ski instruction is rightly light years ahead of Face ze walley, and it depends on strong communication and trust between pupil and teacher.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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From what I've seen...the average Austrian is a better skier than the average Frenchman... So in theory, even more competition here than in France.
I know many people who teach skiing as a (proper) career here, raising families and kids too. Despite the number of people who teach for just a couple of seasons, it's still perfectly possible to make it a career here - and there are no Eurotest barriers. Plenty of Bulgarians teaching over here too, many of them excellent skiers and teachers. No '6 to a room' and low wages either, junior instructors often share a room between two, but the senior (longer working) guys get a room to themselves - heavily subsidised by the ski school.
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What I don't understand is why, if life is made so much easier for foreign ski instructors in Austria than in France, there seem to be more British-run ski schools in France.
Are there any independent British ski schools in Austria?
I'd agree that the average Austrian is a life-long skier and the average Frenchman certainly isn't - the majority of French people probably never go skiing at all, or only for a week a year. But there are around 8 times as many French people as Austrians - within the Alpine areas the competition from "sons and daughters of the valley" is probably fairly similar.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^ Because Brit ski schools tend to establishwhere there's likely to be a good base/throughput of Brit customers ? PdS, Chamonix, Paradiski, 3Vs, EK etc. Ain't no Brit ski school in La Grave but then aren'tmany punters looking for lessons either.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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pam w, Piste to Powder, a guiding operation in St Anton, is run by a Brit - I'm not aware of any others though (plenty of indie self-employed guides of many nationalities though).
I don't really know why, tbh. I guess France has long been a 'traditional' holiday-place for Brits, and (in the past, at least) it's been more common for Brits to learn French than German (and Austria's too low for good snow/etc ). Maybe it's only in the last 10-20 Austria's been catching up in terms of popularity with Brits? I get the impression (mainly from SH!) that the ESF isn't exactly renowned for providing high quality lessons, and often that instructors speak poor English. Between the two, maybe there has been a more valid niche in the market for Brit-provided lessons in France than here? Even most small-ish ski schools here are able to offer good instructors with excellent English (and/or German/Dutch/Danish).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
For ISIA Level 3 yep you need a 2nd language and it has to be an Alpine European one.
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Last time I looked, the level required was frankly risible though.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Let's get this straight. When I go to another country, whether that's China or India or Brazil or wherever I want it to be enjoyable and convenient. I don't expect to learn Mandarin, Hindi, Portuguese or whatever. What's more the locals providing me with services don't expect me to. They are chuffed if I can say hello, please and thank you, and grateful that I have chosen to visit their country and spend my money with them. They are welcoming and put me at my ease and I am polite and friendly. If I go and ski in Chile I don't want my ski instruction in Spanish. I want it in English. Good English. Now if it isn't available I have to accept that or go elsewhere, but if they want me to come they'll try to provide for that requirement. That's the way the service industry works. I'd guess I'm in the majority of Brits, so I and many others will therefore preferentially use British ski schools if in France.*
*Yeah, I know some people want a freebie French lesson during their ski lesson, absorb French culture etc etc (personally don't know what the big deal is, it's just another Western European society, really not that different from our own). I have no inclination to learn any more French than I have already learnt to have successfully stopped some French people from otherwise being rude to me.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Mon 15-04-13 11:36; edited 1 time in total
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
For ISIA Level 3 yep you need a 2nd language and it has to be an Alpine European one.
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Last time I looked, the level required was frankly risible though. |
Gis a job I can do that.
'allo 'allo, suivez-moi.
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Lizzard, Yep set checklist of phrases for BASI as far as I know
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Fattes13, No longer. A telephone interview these days I think.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I understand the interview is just basic conversation and ability to call for help. In reality though the languages you can work in dictates to some extent where and with who you work. The ability to actually teach in a foreign language would probably prove a tougher obstacle than the Eurotest for brits.
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slikedges, I'm sure a lot of Anglophone tourists, all over the world, have much the same attitude to the places they visit. But I suspect you're wrong in thinking that the majority of Brits skiing in France go to the British ski schools. The majority probably don't have any lessons at all and, clearly, a great many, especially those on package trips, use the ESF, mostly perfectly happily.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Surely extra lamguages should be a matter for employer and employee?
Extra languages would make somebody more employable, but why should they be a requirement by the state?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| a great many, especially those on package trips, use the ESF, mostly perfectly happily. |
How can you substantiate this? It may be true but it seems a bit of a leap of faith. What sort of customer satisfaction feedback do the ESF seek , across the the franchise as a whole and locally? How do they adjust for level of comparative experience of customers with non ESF schools etc etc?
I don't deny that there can be a great many great ESF instructors, but cynically across all services, experience tells me larger size is not usually a great indicator of consistency.
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MJS, ROTFLMAO
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understanding of local laws, attitudes etc. understanding France means not trying to be a clever dick and work around the law.
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{weeps tears of laughter} Yes, the French, those paragons of virtue who obey every law of man and God without question - oh dear. If the guy learnt anything from the French after 31 years it was how to side step and ignore every rule or law that he could get away with.
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You know it makes sense.
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How can you substantiate this?
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I can't - it's a guess based on the fact that British TOs would respond if lots of their clients complained about their ski lessons and that there seem to be at least as many compliments as brickbats for ESF lessons and instructors on Snowheads. They are the biggest, the cheapest, the most ubiquitous.
Frankly, I would also hazard a guess that the great majority of British skiers who take lessons with ESF are beginners or early intermediates who want to have a laugh, enjoy learning in a group and are not prepared to spend even half as much learning to ski as they do on booze. And that they are quite content at the end of the week. And I would hazard a further guess that exactly the same could be said of the Brits who go to Austria and learn with the local ski schools.
As a further guess I would suggest that the majority of British skiers don't give a toss whether British instructors are given a hard time in France and certainly wouldn't cut off their noses to spite their faces to join some kind of "boycott" of French resorts.
Just as they won't stop going to the big ski factories just because drinks and food are so expensive, the pistes so crowded and the places almost entirely devoid of any kind of soul.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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As a rep I had non-stop complaints about the ESF, just got a shrug from resort manager when reporting them so doubt they ever got passed on. A favorite was, "my instructor only likes boys" - apparently he ignored the girls all week and only focussed on development of the lads.
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Poster: A snowHead
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^Agree with all of this (pam w's stuff) although I suspetc that there isn't really a meaningful channel for negative feedback. I suspect there's lots of Brit customers who are thoroughly undemanding of their instructors or wouldn't know what "good" feels like anyway and/or are pragmatic enough about their hols to write off sub-par lessons to experience.
I rather suspect though that clientele largely choose ESF because they're the only game in town or the cheapest game in town, rather than because of some intrinsic belief in their superiority. Wonder if ESF actually recognise this?
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Mon 15-04-13 16:56; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I rather suspect though that clientele largely choose ESF |
I suspect a lot don't choose at all. My first 2 holidays were with TOs and I booked lessons through them. Hadn't a clue about who the lessons would be with. I guess this is similar to most TO beginners/second weekers.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I'm sure there are very, very, few British skiers with any intrinsic belief in the superiority of the ESF (French skiers, on the other hand, DO tend to have such a belief; I have tried, sometimes successfully, sometimes unsuccessfully, to persuade French friends to try the local ESI which is, in my view, better than the ESF and the same price).
maggi's experience is typical. And it seems that a lot of British holiday skiers give up lessons after their first few holidays and are perfectly content to "get about". Why would they concern themselves with "ski school wars"?
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| pam w wrote: |
| And it seems that a lot of British holiday skiers give up lessons after their first few holidays and are perfectly content to "get about". |
Shouldn't all ski schools be asking the question as to why this is the case and doing something about it? Best way to avoid wars is to increase the size of the total spoils so there's no need to fight about it.
I'd postulate that a lot of skis schools are behemoths which lack the clarity of thought and self awareness to actually do a great job in promoting the value of lessons. They certainly don't seem to be great at creating the sort of lessons Brit customers want to return to do more of, unlike perhaps non-coincidentally Mr Butler and his team.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob yes. I think pam w is probably correct on this (and more). It belies the 'safety' claim (never substantiated) when punters drop out from ESF instruction at a low level.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| They certainly don't seem to be great at creating the sort of lessons Brit customers want to return to do more of, |
What type of lessons do you think Brit customers want to do more of 
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stewart woodward, The sort that deliver value and progression to keep them engaged and interested after week 2 or 3?
If lots of Brit punters give up lessons very early on its probably fair to say that its not because they are already surpassing Maze or Ligety with their technical skills. The ski industry can accept that punters don't want to learn or find ways of enabling them to progress while delivering other stuff they also want in their holiday experience.
While I think that certain aspects of stuff like the Warren Smith experience (among many "brand" courses) are a reinvention of what is fairly routine as a "secret sauce" there is no doubt that they inspire a certain following and get people learning and interested in progression again. If all skiing group lessons were all framed with an eye to this lifelong progression then there would be vastly more adult progressors signing up with local ski schools.
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fatbob, skiing, for lots of people, is like swimming for lots of people. They love to go to beaches - preferably nice warm ones - or sparkling swimming pools in the sun - and to "go swimming". They can't swim for toffee, but that doesn't matter one bit. They like to relax in the water, to potter about, to throw a ball, or surf on a lilo, or just bask. They feel no need to do "swimming lessons".
I am a fairly useless swimmer and every now and then I wonder about getting proper lessons, then I decide there are plenty of things I would rather do with my time, when push comes to shove. I can swim well enough to enjoy pottering around and to keep myself safe in the water, within reason, and even well enough to save a couple of kids being blown out to sea on a Lilo in Aruba one day. Given the many other things I like to do with my time, that'll do me fine. I had "swimming lessons" in school, but none since. I suspect most British skiers feel much the same about lessons. I have quite a few friends who ski no better now than they did 30 years ago, and they're perfectly happy with that.
Snowheads are not a representative sample of British skiers and we can easily delude ourselves about skiers. Imagine doing a survey amongst British holidaymakers on a beach on the Costa del Sol to establish what sort of swimming lessons would see them embark on a course of constant improvement. They'd think you were daft in the head.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Unfortunately too many Ski 'holidaymakers' are just that...people on holiday, out just to have a good time with their mates or family...Many are not 'Ski Enthusiasts'....like most on here.
They have a few lessons early on and once they can get down a piste many of them are content to just do that from that point on.
More time spent with their family or friends 'just skiing'.
It's only a small minority that wish to 'progress and learn'.
A lot of this comes down to equipment...it's so much easier to use these days. The same applies in golf, because of the equipment less people are having lessons.
When it comes to skiing...the majority of Brits are only skiing for one maybe two weeks in the year.
Unfortunately from my experience many Instructors in France know this and just don't put the effort in, as they know the likely hood is that they're not going to see those people again.
With what's happened with the ski host saga this year, I really can see the Brit TO's closing ranks and encouraging clients to go anywhere else bar the ESF for lessons.
On a side note...many Ski School Directors spend time Marketing their lessons not to holidaymakers but to school partys and organisations.
There are good and bad Instructors in every country...however imho based on feedback whilst working their, the ESF have by far the worst reputation for poor lessons compared to all others. However... I believe the problem lies with how the French and English perceive a lesson. The French actually see 'being shown around a resort' like a ski host would do, as a lesson. I know of many French who will pay for an Instructor for the day, to guide them, give a little instruction and sit and have lunch with them...to be entertained with stories etc,etc.
There in lies the problem imho...
Sorrt PAMW...we seem to be singing off the same hymn sheet...my post crossed with yours...totally agree with your point.
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I don't disagree that for many punters skiing is just pottering around in nice scenery and the number of tedious shallow gradient motorways in popular megaresorts are testament to the general level of ambition in the skiing population. There's nothing wrong with that but it does mean we get the continuing friction of the bald guys fighting over the comb.
It also strikes me that if specialist schools can tap a lucrative market in getting people off the "plateau" that there's probably nothing special about those individuals but more in the marketing and "method" that drags them in.
Yet possibly the world's biggest instruction franchise doesn't really seem to be interested in trying to move instruction forward and in fact seems to react extremely aggressively to those that use more innovative models. I'd be delighted if they are working on improved group lesson methods and formats but I'm not sure the evidence is there. Stewart would clearly be in a better position to comment.
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FAQ
