 Poster: A snowHead
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If anybody employs any French people in the UK, might it be in order to require they have an English driving license before they are allowed to work?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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albinomountainbadger, Considering by Crystals own end of season report their numbers of bookings are up on last year and they believe the market has stabilized, why would they be cutting rooms?
The source is very reliable and did allocate part of the reason to the recent developments versus what they think their customers want. They are increasing beds in Austria, Italy and Switzerland incidentally next year
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What with Chamonix's police having nothing to do with Megeve, and all that. It's like asking the Chief Constable of Sheffield (S Yorks) to deny/acknowledge matters in Manchester (Greater).
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I believe the arrest was made by a gendarmerie which somebody explained to me is a regional police force so perhaps they are based in Chamonix for the Haute-Savoie I am only guessing here though
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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1. Is the Commission aware of the tax benefits offered by France solely to the ESF and not to similar foreign businesses? If so, does the Commission consider these advantages to be in accordance with European law?
Article 132 (1) of the VAT directive(1) provides for some VAT exemptions for certain activities in the public interest, including, under certain conditions, sport or physical education. The Commission is not aware of specific tax benefits that would be offered by France solely to the ESF, and not to similar foreign businesses.
2. Is the Commission aware of the ‘Eurotest’? If so, does the Commission consider this test to be in accordance with the provisions on aptitude tests in Directive 2005/36?
Articles 7 (4) and 14 of Directive 2005/36/EC(2) on recognition of professional qualifications allows Member States to apply compensation measures, such as aptitude tests,
under certain conditions. With a Commission decision of 2000 France was granted a derogation to require applicants who are seeking to have ski instructor's qualifications recognised for the purpose of establishing themselves or providing a temporary service in France, and whose training displays substantial differences from that required in France, to undergo an aptitude test. Similar derogations have been granted to Austria, Italy and Germany. The aptitude test applied in France as a compensation measure, the ‘Eurotest’, was agreed upon in 2000 by professional associations of ski instructors from a number of Member States including those mentioned above. This agreement sets out the specific technical requirements, knowledge and skills necessary for passing the test. The Commission is therefore aware of the ‘Eurotest.’
In 2000, the Commission adopted decisions under the previous Directive 92/51/EEC(3) granting derogations to four Member States to require applicants to undergo an aptitude test for a number of sports professions, including ski instructors. These decisions are however still valid, as indicated in the Commission's report(4) of 22 October 2010 on the transposition and implementation of the Professional Qualifications Directive.
3. How does the Commission view the fact that France appears to use the Eurotest solely for ski instructors wishing to work on the commercial market, either as commercial service providers with their own customers/pupils or in/as commercial ski schools?
4. How does the Commission view the fact that, for its ‘brevet d'état’, France makes no distinction between sports instructors in a professional, organised competition or training context and instructors in an active recreation context?
3 and 4. The practice of a remunerated activity under a professional title is covered within the scope of the internal market freedoms. However, Member States may apply justified restrictions to protect overriding public interests, such as security of service recipients in the mountains, within the limits of proportionality. Specifically, Article 7(4) of the Professional Qualifications Directive allows Member States to require a prior check of the professional qualifications of service providers in order to avoid serious damage to the health or safety of service recipients. Under such conditions, Member States may apply restrictions to remunerated professional activities, irrespective of further distinctions as to the type and scope of activity.
(1) Council Directive 2006/112/EC of 28 November 2006 on the common system of value added tax (OJ L 347, 11.12.2006).
(2) Directive 2005/36/EC of the Parliament and of the Council of 7 September 2005 on the recognition of professional qualifications (OJ L 255, 30.9.2005).
(3) Council Directive 92/51/EEC of 18 June 1992 on a second general system for the recognition of professional education and training to supplement Directive 89/48/EEC (OJ L 209, 24.7.1992).
(4) Commission Staff Working Document on the transposition and implementation of the Professional Qualifications Directive, SEC(2010)1292. |
Note the commissioner in charge is Michel Barnier, a Savoyard (aka The Cretin of the Alps).
Note the SBS 2006 case centered around whether his stagieres had to complete an aptitude test. The prosecutor offered no evidence to show that the UK training differed from the French training so the court rejected the need for an aptitude test in this case.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
I believe the arrest was made by a gendarmerie which somebody explained to me is a regional police force so perhaps they are based in Chamonix for the Haute-Savoie I am only guessing here though |
The Gendarmerie is under the control of the Prefet, the government's representative in each department. The UK equivalent, if such can be made, is the chief constable. The prefecture in the HS is in Annecy. Not sure why Chamonix is involved, it is not even a sub-prefecture. Megeve is a separate area from Chamonix.
The Gendarme at Chamonix probably thought... WTF are these bbc guys phoning me for?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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If anybody employs any French people in the UK, might it be in order to require they have an English driving license before they are allowed to work?
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After they have been here a year, yes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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beequin, there was irony in my post . . . . .
(PS I hint you can drive on a French license fo as long as you want unde an agreement - some others, you cant)
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davidof, Cheers was not sure, not even sure if the arrest was by a Gendarmerie, should have just started with Bad journalism sometimes it is the simple answer.
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| Fattes13 wrote: |
| davidof, Cheers was not sure, not even sure if the arrest was by a Gendarmerie, should have just started with Bad journalism sometimes it is the simple answer. |
Maybe the Chamonix Gendarmerie were involved, the BBC article seems quite certain. It does seem a bit odd.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms [of BASI] private. If you aren't a member, stay silent.
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It's hard to know what to say.. |
Well start with this:
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| "Postings that are abusive, defamatory or consistently seek to bring BASI into disrepute will lead to disciplinary action" |
For BASI members who want to make criticism it's best to keep it private. BASI members sign up to the [BASI Social Media Guidelines for Members]
Login to Members' area -../content/policy--company-documents and download it.
(Usual Disclaimer about my views being my own and may or may not concur with those of the BASI)
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Do the "guidelines" say members can cherry-pick which parts they abide by, or helpfully decide to remind others of? I seem to remember you are also, for example, required to post using your real name...? Of course this could make multiple logins a little problematic I suppose 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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SkiPresto, home of "inform" ski teaching?
Your earlier comment seemed odd to me, hence my post. Your reply seems even odder. Maybe its just a spelling's mistake?
Or just " fraught with unseen problems"
I am however afraid of joining the group.
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| northantsred wrote: |
This kind of sums the French ski resort ethos up for me. I have had a week in France this winter and a short break in Austria and the difference is quite remarkable between the two.
I really do think that it will be a while before I for one venture back to France. |
Where can I go in Austria on the 20th April that will still have 600km of linked piste fully open (and ski in/out accommodation)? (in anticipation of the answer, I already made my booking today).
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You know it makes sense.
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| under a new name wrote: |
SkiPresto, home of "inform" ski teaching?
Your earlier comment seemed odd to me, hence my post. Your reply seems even odder. Maybe its just a spelling's mistake?
Or just " fraught with unseen problems"
I am however afraid of joining the group. |
"inform" was the intended word.
It used to be "Informed", but to make it more memorable, and to play with the word - I changed it to Inform.
Many people use language in strange novel ways nowadays - and that's fine...
e.g. "Djokovic was the form player of the tournament..." (Rather than the "on-Form" player)
e.g. "...this is a quality ski school ..." - Rather than ... "...an excellent quality ski school ..."
Your quoted comment is too vague to say much more about. I don't really understand what comment you found odd, or what you posted 'hence',
why you choose to find odd the fact that the mainstream social media sites like FB and LI are "fraught with unseen problems" (Do the stats: 1bn users on FB - means there are millions of serious criminals lurking there).
You say you ".. am however afraid of joining the group" I take it this means "Register on SkiPresto.org" even though it is accountable and protected.
I would like to be positive, and if there is anything I can help you with, you can message me.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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SkiPresto, your website looks like it's been written by a non native English speaker (or possibly you're Phil Keith in disguise). Just an unqualified punter's view of course, maybe when the secret BASI handshake is bestowed the secret meaning is revealed to the worthy. Sorry not wishing to be a personal attack but as you're clearly critical of the clunkiness of this forum I was expecting something a bit more polished.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SkiPresto, now I am really confused.
However, "if there is...", well, a better solution to recurrent cold sores than Acyclovir would be appreciated?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Fatbob. Its a demo site and the content is provisional.
For more info, just register an account.
Similar Sites in any language can be created.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 5-04-13 4:25; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Well start with this:
Quote:
"Postings that are abusive, defamatory or consistently seek to bring BASI into disrepute will lead to disciplinary action"
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Nothing about criticism there? As long as it has some foundation those at the top of BASI or any other organization for that matter have to be answerable to members and are open for criticism from the same, as long as there is nothing defamatory or brings the organization into disrepute that is acceptable in my view.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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under a new name, if it was a question try penciclovir for a change.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Everyone has to accept that without complaint or special pleading.
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent.
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So, what you appear to be saying is that non BASI members, for sake of argument lets call this group "Customers", should not comment on who is providing their Ski Instruction.
You also appear to be saying that BASI members, lets call this group "Suppliers", should not comment on who is providing Ski Instruction, not forgetting that the service in question is provided by an small sub group of "Suppliers" due to regional regulation.
For a 'Free Market' it is hard to know what to say, but perhaps I misinterpreted your statement.
The crux of the problem is the first observation. The UK joined the European Union where "Free movement of labour is a fundamental right in the EU". The key justification for the Ski Instruction arrangements in France is that it's in the best interests of the customer. What it actually does is disadvantage the customer by denying them full choice of supplier.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| alti - dude wrote: |
| If anybody employs any French people in the UK, might it be in order to require they have an English driving license before they are allowed to work? |
There is no such thing as an "English driving license" driving license.
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| Gaza wrote: |
| alti - dude wrote: |
| If anybody employs any French people in the UK, might it be in order to require they have an English driving license before they are allowed to work? |
There is no such thing as an "English driving license" driving license. |
There might well be if Alex Salmond, Martin McGuinness and whoever the Welsh drumbeater for independence is get their way!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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alti - dude, Sorry, missed the irony and was not up to date either.
European Union or European Economic Area
You can drive in Great Britain on your full, valid driving licence until you’re 70, or for 3 years after becoming resident in Great Britain, whichever is longer.
If you got your EU licence by exchanging your non-EU licence, you can drive in Great Britain for only 12 months.
albinomountainbadger, Same would apply I guess if there was independence.
Leanne Wood http://www.english.plaidcymru.org/?force=1
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| AndAnotherThing.. wrote: |
| SkiPresto wrote: |
Everyone has to accept that without complaint or special pleading.
If you are a BASI member you should keep your criticisms private. If you aren't a member, stay silent.
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So, what you appear to be saying is that non BASI members, for sake of argument lets call this group "Customers", should not comment on who is providing their Ski Instruction.
You also appear to be saying that BASI members, lets call this group "Suppliers", should not comment on who is providing Ski Instruction, not forgetting that the service in question is provided by an small sub group of "Suppliers" due to regional regulation.
For a 'Free Market' it is hard to know what to say, but perhaps I misinterpreted your statement.
The crux of the problem is the first observation. The UK joined the European Union where "Free movement of labour is a fundamental right in the EU". The key justification for the Ski Instruction arrangements in France is that it's in the best interests of the customer. What it actually does is disadvantage the customer by denying them full choice of supplier. |
Sorry, but the statement was made in a different context.
Of course individuals can be criticised freely. Criticising your members' organisation in public is quite a different matter.
What was meant is: BASI is an organisation of several thousand members, and it doesn't do the individual member much good to criticise the organisation and any of its perceived failings in public. It should be done in private amongst other members to avoid damage to reputation.
BASI business (e.g. raising old accusations from days of yore) should remain private and there is a procedure for sorting out grievances.
On the other hand, Non BASI members shouldn't get involved at all in BASI business matters that shouldn't concern them.
I hope that puts the matter into proper perspective.
As for the rest - "Free movement of labour" let's take doctors and nurses for instance. There is an accepted minimum qualification for these professions.
For Ski Instructors in France, the minimum is ISTD.
To establish a ski school in France the principal must be properly qualified.
To take on and train stagieres in France, the training centre must comply with minimum standards and number of fully qualified instructor trainers.
What I've noticed (here on Snowheads) is that there is sometimes an assumption that the old-style "Grade1" is the same as an ISTD.
Of course, it isn't even close.
The ISTD (In addition to the traditional extremely demanding tech and teach) requires a Eurotest pass and a European Mountain Safety pass. These two can take several years to achieve.
There are hundreds of BASI ski teachers striving away to achieve ISTD - at great expense to personal life and bank account not to mention health and safety.
The reward is a well-paid professional job that will pay a mortgage.
People working as ski teachers or running ski schools in France who do not have their minimum level qualifications should be in no doubt the risk they run. That risk of course is the conviction of a criminal offence and the jail.
Disclaimer:-
(I'm a BASI member - but the views expressed on this post are mine and do not necessarily reflect the views of BASI)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| fatbob wrote: |
Luca Brazzi sleeps with the fishes. |
Excellent! Had to google that, v. funny 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Surely this quote from one of the links is misinterpretated....
'Dave Renouf, corporate affairs manager at the British Association Of Snowsports Instructors, said: "[Eurotest] is one part a whole stream of tests for a highly qualified instructor.
"Passing it ensures a technical standard that keeps clients safe".
How does passing the Eurotest keep clients safe?
Regardless of what laws apply to work as an Instructor in France, this whole affair imho, is purely protectionist and nothing to do with 'safety'. The active pursuit of British individuals and time and effort to do this only highlights it.
Skipresto wrote....
As for the rest - "Free movement of labour" let's take doctors and nurses for instance. There is an accepted minimum qualification for these professions.
For Ski Instructors in France, the minimum is ISTD.
To establish a ski school in France the principal must be properly qualified.
To take on and train stagieres in France, the training centre must comply with minimum standards and number of fully qualified instructor trainers.
Out of interest... do you know of any British ski schools in France that have been given the authority to have a training centre where they can train Stagieres? I'm not aware of any.... if so...why?
If this was purely a safety issue... then i would hope the French and ESF would look closer to home...
From personal experience working in France, as a whole, the Quality standard of ESF Instructors regarding safety and Instruction , is far less than many other nations. They may have passed their tests and can ski well... but i'm not impressed with their attitude, Group safety issues and the standard of Instructing from many of their Instructors.
The attitude of the many of their Instructors changes drastically when they are Instructing Brits over French clients... However...I can understand how the French could come to dislike the Brits in 'their' resorts. We may bring in money... but many of us don't help ourselves. I've seen a real decline in behaviour amongst Brit ski holidaymakers... It's no wonder there maybe a 'them and us' attitude.
I personally think the French are just tired of us....
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Sorry, but the statement was made in a different context.
Of course individuals can be criticised freely. Criticising your members' organisation in public is quite a different matter.
What was meant is: BASI is an organisation of several thousand members, and it doesn't do the individual member much good to criticise the organisation and any of its perceived failings in public. It should be done in private amongst other members to avoid damage to reputation.
BASI business (e.g. raising old accusations from days of yore) should remain private and there is a procedure for sorting out grievances.
On the other hand, Non BASI members shouldn't get involved at all in BASI business matters that shouldn't concern them.
I hope that puts the matter into proper perspective. |
You would make an excellent Politburo member.
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You know it makes sense.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| SkiPresto, your website looks like it's been written by a non native English speaker (or possibly you're Phil Keith in disguise). Just an unqualified punter's view of course, maybe when the secret BASI handshake is bestowed the secret meaning is revealed to the worthy. Sorry not wishing to be a personal attack but as you're clearly critical of the clunkiness of this forum I was expecting something a bit more polished. |
Fatbob: I do my bit for transparency (Explaining how to contact me as a real name via a website) and all I get from your contribution is fallacy.
Your posting states:
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| ...Sorry not wishing to be a personal attack... |
That's disingenuous, because you quite concisely carried out nothing but attack;
mixed in with deriding "..non native English speaker(s)..";
took the opportunity to insult someone called Phil Keith - the relevance isn't clear - but it's a private insider joke that excludes non-cognoscenti;
compounding it by trying to paint BASI as a secret society with secret handshakes ( implying some sort of masonic bigotry);
all the while taking the part of the put-upon "unqualified punter ";
but clearly passive-aggressively trying to misrepresent my position as someone who is persecuting you in some made-up way.
To cap it all, your content is well off the original topic.
Finally - to do all that (these accusations of secret societies), whilst hiding behind an anonymous username, against someone of who is advocating proper names and proper on-line guidelines is hypocritical.
If there is any useful comment you'd like to make on my postings that would be much preferable all round.
The SkiPresto.com site I offered as my real contact is a demo site with preliminary test content.
If you genuinely don't understand something on that site, I'd like to know what it is so I can improve its quality where necessary.
SpoilerStandard disclaimer:
" I'm a BASI member but the views expressed on this post are mine and do not necessarily reflect the views of BASI"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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spud, You asked me:
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Out of interest... do you know of any British ski schools in France that have been given the authority to have a training centre where they can train Stagieres? I'm not aware of any.... if so...why?
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The answer is no, I don't know of any. If there's prejudicial local exclusive rules that discriminate against non nationals, then that should be a focus for change.
It's beyond my knowledge, and would like to hear from those at the sharp end of this.
I think I agree with most/all of what you contributed.
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Poster: A snowHead
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SkiPresto, I fear you might be taking all of this far too seriously. I wasn't trying to deride non-native English speakers but trying to identify that your choice of language and syntax on your site wouldn't be out of place for a Nigerian scammer. This thread wasn't really about you or your site but you seem to have decided to position yourself as the unofficial mouthpiece of BASI and what is good and righteous with fairly thinly veiled criticism of anyone punter or non who raised their head above the parapet. Your efforts to keep the first rule of BASI intact is right up with Tyler Duerden. To the extent that I'm taking issue with you it's only due to my fallibility in occasionally being unable to resist a pop at pomposity.
As for the PK reference - I suggest you do a bit of searching this site to see the relevance. Your MO seems similar to his - this site is an old dinosaur , absolute confidence that you know better, why can't everyone in the ski community hold hands and make flower chains while spunking up cash to their betters. Then have a look at Snow vole to see what a truly vibrant next gen social media snowsports site looks like and don't let the tumbleweed prickle you.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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fatbob, You are quite wrong. Your content is replete with fallacy and what I interpret as malice.
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As for the PK reference - I suggest you do a bit of searching this site to see the relevance. Your MO seems similar
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I have no idea where you got this and I want to make it clear that there is no content of mine on any topic including those initials.
I have made it abundantly clear that I don't speak for BASI, and you are quite wrong to tell people that I do, or seek to do.
The BASI member guidelines are quite clear, and I'm doing my best to follow them.
Thanks for your reference to the Snow Vole, I'll check it out.
Now, can we please get back on topic?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
implying some sort of masonic bigotry
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Easy tiger, my dad's a freemason 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Now, can we please get back on topic? |
What is it? You don't think anyone should talk about BASI on a nonprivate forum. Lots of people seem to disagree.
BASI doesn't seem to do a lot to fight the corner of the whole spectrum of members when it comes to aggressive anti-competitive actions by French interested parties which are transparently, first and foremost about driving out foreign competition on their patch? Or perhaps it does but no-one ever gets to see this?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| SkiPresto wrote: |
Sorry, but the statement was made in a different context.
Of course individuals can be criticised freely. Criticising your members' organisation in public is quite a different matter.
What was meant is: BASI is an organisation of several thousand members, and it doesn't do the individual member much good to criticise the organisation and any of its perceived failings in public. It should be done in private amongst other members to avoid damage to reputation.
BASI business (e.g. raising old accusations from days of yore) should remain private and there is a procedure for sorting out grievances.
On the other hand, Non BASI members shouldn't get involved at all in BASI business matters that shouldn't concern them.
I hope that puts the matter into proper perspective. |
If an organisation's actions are such that they invoke criticism from it's members, then any perceived damage to its reputation has been self-inflicted prior to comment from its membership. It should be man enough to accept open and free criticism from its members without acting like a police state gone rogue.
Additionally, as a potential customer of said organisation's output, that organisation's business matter do concern me. I definitely hold the right to openly criticise that organisation if they act in a manner that warrants it. And I would certainly withhold my custom should I deem that appropriate.
You may repeat your disclaimer as often as you like but some of your comments certainly don't do BASI any favours.
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Interesting as this may all be, can we get back on topic please ? I've only just come to this - Has the chap been arrested for teaching without the right qualifications or for operating as a training centre without meeting the French criteria ? From a quick read of the above it looks like that actual rules on both might be quite clear regardless of them being right or wrong, morally or otherwise. It sounds like he has had previous run-ins with the French authorities, which could put him on a sticky wicket anyway. I cant boast any direct experience in the application of EU Rules, Directives etc viz a viz member regulations but from reading about cases in the papers the whole business seems anything but straightforward.
As to BASI ? - I'm not qualified to comment on your arrangements for supporting your membership etc etc, but I can respond to the statement above that implies that as a non-member I should stay silent. If you chose to argue on a public forum then you should expect comment from others.
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This thread has been rated as FF7 (flounceo Factor out of 10) and an amber warning has been issued.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I am cool w this going back on topic, conditional upon at least one FFR (Fatbob Film Reference) per succeeding page.
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FAQ
