Lazy Europeans on the snow?

A snowHead

I was always banging on the door to get out. Last time there was 46cm's overnight, an absolute epic. Crossed over the run to Red Chair and into the trees under Franz's into Franz's meadow, then all the way down, joining Peak to Creek. Then in the line for the Peak Chair for two hours until they had completed the bombing and Million Dollar Ridge. I am almost crying remembering it.

A snowHead

Some fairly polarised opinions here about the merits of American skiing.

It reminds me of some of the debates we've had about Scottish skiing;
you know there must be aspects of it that are truly great......... but you worry about traveling so far and being disappointed. Confused

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Peter S, One year I applied for work in the States (ages ago now), and I only wrote to resorts with more than 1,500 FOOT vertical - that was more than half the resorts out of the picture straight away. I was really shocked! Shocked

BTW apparently May is too late to apply for work the next season (Aspen asked me to re-apply), came back here though and never regretted it - 2.310 METERS vertical = 7,507.5 feet. No contest regardless of powder. Smile

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I think the folk who are really earning their powder aren't the ones who get up a little early on a powder day to be ferried up for breakfast and ski down a couple of closed runs before the masses arrive. The ones I admire and I'm sure they exist on both sides of the atlantic are the folk who get up at 3am climb 1500m so that they can get their turns in before the slopes get to avalanche prone, now that certainly ain't lazy and is very popular in Europe.

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DB, not bad but Wengen gets short changed as they took the height from the Mannlichen at 2230M rather than EigerGletscher at 2320M Mad

brian

D G Orf, are there not any epic off-piste descents from Jungfraujoch ?

brian

DB, some well dodgy efforts in that list.

Brides-les-bains ? how often can you ski down that far ?

The La Tania top figure must be counting the Cime de Caron, 2 valleys away ! Mind you, that's not as bad as Neustift, where they've counted the top of the Stubaier Gletscher, several road miles away !!

The Verbier bottom figure is Le Chable, not exactly reliable.

As they say en Ecosse, whitaloadypish.

What a terrible piece of work that list is. I really hope that there aren't any rich yanks who are forgetting Whistler this year, and planning instead a dream holiday to ski the 2410m vertical at Finkenburg Confused

(miles down the road from Hintertux at 3250m). And apparrently you can ski direct from the Grande Motte to Les Brevieres at Tignes.....

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Oh come that list is from an English ski website, what do you expect? I mean what do the Brits know about skiing anyway? wink

Stop whinging about the list and someone put up a better list.

Edit Some more lists .....

http://verticalfeet.com/

http://skiwhere.com/statisticalsummary.htm

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I'm an American, have skied extensively throughout America, not so extensively in the Alps, but I have visited two out of three European areas profiled in the Budget Travel article. I have to confess that I ate that article up. In other words, I found it a very appealing portrayal of what I might seek (and have sought) in an Alpine ski vacation. Even if it was full of clichés and overplayed some of the quaint après ski activities, it did stir my interest in traveling again to Europe. I also have to agree with some of the stereotypes imparted about the European masses, such as a higher interest in late night partying, lower interest in fresh morning powder, and more patience for two hour lunches than Americans. For whatever reason, the majority of Americans don't think of ski holidays as times for laid back relaxation and/or drunken debauchery. We think of them as times for challenging physical exertion and ambitious exploration (at least many of us who read forums like this).
I am not sure if you Euros think all Americans prize our domestic ski areas as the best anywhere, but I can assure you that to the contrary, many of us continue to hold up the Alps as the Holy Grail of all ski destinations. I sometimes get to chat with Euros visiting US ski areas and I have to humorously ask them, "why aren't you in the Alps." American ski areas have fast lifts, good trail grooming, deep snowpacks, but they just don't have the Verticality of the Alps. They don't have the massive verticals and incredible scenery, or the fascinating 1000 year old history. Viva la difference.

Here's a fine alternate article along a similar vein:
Lito article: http://www.breakthroughonskis.com/Pages/_ski_travel/travel09.html

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On the other side of things, I've had days in Whistler when it's snowing so heavily that every run down was like fresh tracks, and myself and my buddy were the only people skiing on harmony bowl.

You know it makes sense.

Americans... think they're so good and invented everything. Think everyone else is lazy. (cough cough) McDonalds (cough cough) high obesity rates (cough cough)

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

lucky33, Thanks for good humour and objectivity. We really need that today! snowHead

A snowHead

There will be a difference, so do your homework and make your choice. I wouldn't bother with the US for piste skiing but am contemplating Utah for a powder holiday but you get the conditions you get. Friends of mine went all the way to Alaska and had
the 'worst conditions for 50 yrs' plus half the hill was shut off for a comp. The small areas are the main struggle I will have getting them to Utah..!!

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

veeeight, I would have thought that's just the point! Too flat (by all accounts) not enough vertical, and why go all that way to do what's better here. Powder in Utah is another matter of course. Very Happy

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lucky33, echoing Chris Bish, many thanks for those wise words.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Too flat?

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

One things that the US resorts should really sort out is this. 1 superfast lift with V good vertical and then what do they do? Cut the SAME trial down the hill over and over, to such an extent you don't know which trail you are on because they are over the same terrain type. This is very bland skiing. Look at any map of most resorts to see an example of this and there can't be that much variation betwen the trails in that respect. On a hill of comparable size an alpine resort might cut two pistes getting the maximum variation. The US might cut 6 trails all down the front. Its a big difference and you get quite a bit of mileage out of it - albeit, I would argue, no variation at all. If they didn't do this the resorts would be even smaller... Hence, I wouldn't bother with the piste skiing etc. I don't bother with piste skiing in Europe so wouldn't go all the way to the states for it, for sure...!!

Back country or Bowl skiing I be interested in but again the alpes is quite well served in that respect as well...!!

After all it is free

veeeight, Pisted too flat I mean.

I agree pistes may lack variety but a piste is a piste - if its groomed there's a limit to the max inclination and there are only so many winch cats out there.

I can think of plenty of ski lifts with dull blue runs running off them but spectacular short cuts/gullies/tree stashes.

I don't really understand the size is everything view - I spent a whole season finding new lines somewhere that I overheard British package punters describing as a bit boring because hey'd "done" all the pistes.

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fatbob,

Thats just as true, I don't really look at the pisted terrain but try to get a feel of the whole hill. You need to see it or get an OS map or the equivalent

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Now you know it's not like me to steretype but .....

I only go on about how much bigger our European mountains are so the Yanks can see what it's like when the ski glove's on the other foot snowHead

(it's normally our dearly beloved American cousins going on about size etc).

While the Europeans are having a holiday, the Yanks are counting how many vertrical feet they have done and then getting to bed early. For some people life's a competition, gotta win, gotta be No1. Other people chill-out and enjoy themsleves. Viva la difference although thankfully not all Yanks are so minded.

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DB, Absolutely. I had one poor golf fan staying with me in Aviemore for a while (playing all the local courses). He said he wanted to live in europe but couldn't get a visa, but felt completely at odds with most other Americans - he wanted to enjoy life at a reasonable pace and not work himself to death. More interested in the quality of life than the quantity of money in the bank. Shocked

Having spent more time skiing on both continents (Europe and North America) than most people on this forum, I would just say, please don't make sweeping statements unless you've tried a fair number of ski resorts on both sides of the pond. There are plenty of good and bad points to both, and vertical drop is certainly not the be-all and end-all. (When you look at a list of resorts by vertical drop, it's also important to look at the elevation of the base.)

Europe:

Good points: larger ski areas,
longer runs,
more linkage between resorts,
usually more raucous apres-ski and nightlife,
more untouched off-piste to be found if you're willing to invest in a guide (or take risks),
shorter journey (for Brits),
more atmospheric mountain restaurants,
higher proportion of cablecars and gondolas if you want shelter from the weather.

Bad points: generally worse snow quality when you look at the whole ski area - usually because of lower base altitudes,
often poorer service,
almost always ruder lift queues,
sometimes language difficulties,
poor visibility in bad weather because of the lower treeline,
little socialising with other skiers except other Brits.

N. America:

Good points: always more organised and polite queueing,
on average better snow quality because the bases are higher,
better grooming,
quieter runs (because of all those parallel runs from one lift that were mentioned),
usually better customer service (the domestic US market won't accept poor service),
the ability to practise off-piste in safety,
better visibility in bad weather because of the higher tree-line,
Yanks are usually very sociable on lift rides

Bad points: less raucous apres-ski (the old Puritan attitude towards alcohol and fun - especially in Utah),
smaller areas, shorter runs,
"in-bounds" powder gets skied out quickly (but you're often free to go "out-of-bounds" through a "backcountry access gate" - at your own risk, so similar to going "off-piste" in Europe),
soulless self-service mountain cafeterias,
lifts are usually chairlifts so little protection from bad weather,
longer journey time,
Visa hassles

I may have missed out a few points, but it's important not to generalise, even within one country. The atmosphere is very different between, say, Vail, Keystone, and Taos, just like it is between, say, Soll, Obergurgl and Turracherhohe, or Val d'Isere, La Grave, and Megeve.

You know it makes sense.

Oh, under good points for North America I would also list "quality of instruction", often purely because of the absence of a language barrier, although of course that's changing with the proliferation of British-run ski schools in the Alps.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

PG, Well, I've always found that conversation is alive and well in France, and anyone will talk to anyone pretty much. The stand offish ones on lifts are the Brits! "OOH, I couldn't talk to someone I don't know!!!"

Riding lifts is one of the nicest ways to talk to new people (you'll probably never see them again either). Highly pleasant. Very Happy

Martin Bell, I'm sure that the queues are much better in the states (everyone says so), but it's hard after 16 years in a resort with such a huge ski area - 220 kms pistes - (+ La Grave on the doorstep & the second biggest off piste domain in France), to imagine working an entire season in a place with so little vertical and so many similar runs as many of the Stateside resorts. Also, with the possible exception of Telluride, the impression you get is not of "community" in US ski resorts. For me, that's one of the most important things - belonging, and living in one place, knowing others, and feeling the welcome given even to 1 weekers.

I also found it very alarming to be expected to list my personal ski-ing goals for the season, how I was going to achieve them etc! My goal is always to do my job a bit better this year than last year - at 53 I suspect my ski-ing will not improve much more except in a purely technical sense - no more bumps or racecourses possible now. Crying or Very sad

A snowHead

brian, there are several off piste descents from Jungfraujoch, it is possible to ski the whole of the Aletsch Glacier (arround 25km) though it takes a good skier a long day, more normal skiers can stop part way at a climbing hut and take two days, alternatively for superb skiers it is possible to descend down the front of the mountain through the icefield to Eigergletscher, in both cases a guide is essential

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

For me, in a resort such as Whistler Blackcomb, the attraction is simpy the amount of accessible variety of terrain - all within the Ski Boundary.

Green Runs for beginners from the top of every chair - thus enabling them to see the whole mountain(s)
Miles of wide motorway groomers for the cruisers
Bumps to make you teeth rattle
Steep and Deep for the adrenelin junkies
Trees to get the blood pumping

and all this without going into the backcountry.

This coming season will be my third in WB - and at the end of the last one I was still finding new runs and lines to ski. (I average about 100+ days per season). Bored? Absolutely Not.

I'm afraid I will rarely be venturing back to the European Alps...........

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Martin Bell, I think from memory that the route is probably between the Monch and the Eiger, I will try to dig out my copy of the relavent DHO Journal where one of our members describes it, I'm also aware of an eccentric Japanese gentleman who apparently managed to ski down the Eiger on his own, note that I did mention the route was for superb skiers only, as for that matter is the route down the front of the Mannlichen under the cablecar.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

PG, Martin is I am certain a superb skier (far better than I ) but I have no idea if he's also a superb off piste skier wink

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In that video clip, I'm dissapointed that no-one mounted the t-bar with their pole tips pointed forward (the correcy way). The number of times I've seen the liftie stabbed by backward pointed tips of poles.............

Help!!

Lazy Europeans on the snow?

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