First post for me - please be kind.
I've found some info on the web about parts of this, but most of the times it doesn't seem to apply - mostly for ability or weight etc...
Wanted to get your view on two things:
1. I'm thinking to upgrade to my first powder skis: is it the right time, or should I wait and ski a few more weeks first?
2. And in case, which ski would be best?
I'm 37, 176cm (about 5'9") and 65kg.
Done 12-13 weeks over the last 5 years (I knew basic parallel already).
Confident on reds, lose a bit of style one steep blacks. Still working on technique.
Exploring off piste.
This winter I had 10 amazing powder days on the Dolomites which significantly improved my skiing, and also confirmed that this is the skiing I'm more interested in.
1ft of fresh on a groomed based was a joy, while off piste powder was so light I had to be on the backseat all the time, which resulted in very sore knees for 6 weeks after my trip.
Hence started thinking whether proper powder skis would have helped (and saved a lot of knee pain)…
Currently on Salomon Lords 177.
These are the ones I shortlisted, hoping in some end of season bargains:
Rossignol S7 178 – from reviews it seems very easy
Scott Punisher 12/13 183 – the guys at Ellis Brigham highly recommends it, but I wasn’t too keen on the hammerhead tip and tail
WhiteDot Director 178 – I like the brand values and it's got an interesting geometry
Salomon Rocker 108 – modern shape and again it seems quite fun
I don't want to end up with too much of a ski for me – something easy and playful.
I like the idea of a long, progressive rocker.
Thinking touring bindings for some hike and ride in the future.
Thank you all in advance for your input – very much appreciated!
Cheers
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Quote:
off piste powder was so light I had to be on the backseat all the time, which resulted in very sore knees for 6 weeks after my trip.
This suggests to me that your money would be better off spent on some lessons, you shouldn't be in the backseat at all. Light powder is the easiest to ski, and I honestly don't think a wider ski would help you.
Personally if I were you I'd spend some money on some lessons first, new skis second. If your going out again this season then you could also try a few different pairs combined with your lessons/when you have something to practise.
You also get some end of season bargains as the sales seem to have kicked off
A quick google shows this as a review for the Lord.
Quote:
Salomon built the Lord Ski to rule equally well on deep powder days, crud days, and days when you fly down the steepest corduroy groomers at speeds that could melt the Gore-Tex off your jacket. With a midfat width and ample sidecut to really grip the groomers, you have all-mountain power at your fingertips. The Lord Ski isn t just for control freaks though; if you love playing in the powder like a puppy loves the dog pond, its rockered semi-twin tips and highly responsive wood core ensure you ll float through day after day of frivolity. Trust in the Lord for big-mountain stability in a full variety of conditions.
regards,
Greg
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
^^what he said, probably If your skis can't float you they'll tend to sink or dive; if you're getting tipped backwards then something is probably amiss in your stance, not your equipment.
That said, everyone likes buying new toys. Don't buy now; you'd be better off waiting til all the end-of-season clearance and next-season preorders start. Also, you may want to go longer. The skis you're looking at all have plenty of rocker, which means they'll feel like a shorter ski on hardpack but shouldn't be hard to turn in 3d snow. Moreover, some of them will actually be shorter than their stated lengths anyway... I'd definitely go for the S7 in 186 in preference to the 178. You could find that out for yourself if you get the opportunity to demo some ahead of time, of course
Speaking of the S7, Rossi is giving its S series a bit of a revamp for next season, so you may find older stock going extra cheap, and the new stuff won't be quite the same shape.
MonteHelm, as Serriadh, and kitenski, have said see if you can demo and get some lessons. 2 weeks of off piste guided lessons has made a huge difference to me, and i have discovered i love tight tree skiing more than anything, so a slightly shorter ski for me, that is a compromise on big open faces.
I purchased various skis this season, the one i least expected to like in powder was the most fun everywhere, and the one that was a dedicated powder ski was brill in perfect powder, but then a bit crap everywhere else, and the one that was really eye wateringly expensive and everyone raved and raved about on the web was really horrible at everything!! The biggest load of overated bling ever!
so try some, and read what others like and lengths with a pinch of salt, you need to see what you like, but with improved technique from practice, and the practice will be huge fun!!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
As above with lessons if having problem with a Lord which is a wider ski a lot of people ski powder on, any wider you will have difficulty in controlling.
The correct answer was "these skis will turn you into a powder hero in no time" I'm afraid...
He he.... just kidding obviously
Thank you all for all the honest feedback - really appreciated.
Yes, it's very difficult not to be tempted by some shining new toys during end-of-season sale and be another victim of perfect marketing.
But I agree, practice is more important... and I'm realizing it actually takes a lot of it!
Hopefully I should get a few of more days at Easter.
I invest in lessons during every ski trip, especially now that my skiing buddy (aka my wife) is busy looking after our little one, so I end up skiing on my own most of the time, which is far from fun.
On groomers I have a quite consistent centered stance (losing a bit on blacks).
In the case of powder during my last trip, it was actually the instructor advice (experienced ex-racer, but not into off piste that much) to lean back to help the tips get up, pick up speed and float... perhaps a bit old school?
In light powder turning wasn't too bad, but it was moving and floating that was difficult (wasn't very steep, but not flat either).
Out of curiosity, so I get things in perspective, how many days of skiing per year do you do, and how long have you been skiing?
Reading on forums I often get the idea that some of the users posting there are athletes or sesonaires, ...or anyway not just doing the one week per year...
Cheers
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
MonteHelm, just get rid of the Lords, horrible ski doesn't do the same thing twice.
After all it is free
After all it is free
carroz, out of interest what did you buy?
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MonteHelm, I own two of the pairs on your list, the Directors and the S7s. I've never tried the other two.
Of the two I own, I love the S7s and these have become my daily drivers. Yes, I ski them anywhere: on piste, off piste, in tight trees, moguls, deep snow, hardpack, crud, crust, slush... I bought them when I was at about the same stage of skiing as you (skills-wise and time on snow).
Just bear in mind that because of the rocker, you need to go longer (I am 165cm tall, weigh 56kg and my S7s are 178cm). As everyone says, do try to demo any skis you're thinking of buying. And get off piste lessons from new school instructors if you can
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
MonteHelm wrote:
In the case of powder during my last trip, it was actually the instructor advice (experienced ex-racer, but not into off piste that much) to lean back to help the tips get up, pick up speed and float... perhaps a bit old school?
Don't lean back !!! you will just end up in the back seat.
If it's flat and I'm trying to keep the tips up I aim to stay centered but lift the toes and sink the heels slightly.
If you are only 65 kg then the Lords should give you more than enough float. Difficult to say without seeing you ski but it sounds like you are not letting your skis run and getting into a rythm. Best to find an instructor who specializes in teaching offpiste students.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Tue 12-03-13 9:36; edited 1 time in total
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
MonteHelm, I'd stick with the Lords and hire some more pow-specific skis when the conditions arise. Lessons and (mountain) guides are the best destination for your cash.
Also (not for me to say of course) -- make sure your skiing budies' skills/aspirations don't get too far away from yours
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
MonteHelm, if you are still dead keen on buying more kit, bear in mind that super light deep powder is the exception rather than the rule (in Europe at least) and that off piste, even on powder days generally involves access and egress over less than perfect conditions - so a ski truly optimised for powder will make most of your day less fun.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Mt, The ones that were very surprising were rossi s3 in 178 cm (and also some 175cm elan chainsaws which are as good, a bit beefier) i have always hated most rossi's , but the s3 tail is so much better than the s7 which i didn't like and they are superb in bumps, quick in trees and the 178cm was better than the flappy 186cm ones, i think the rocker is too big for the ski on the longer ones.
the powder only ones were fischer big stix 110 which are real hard work anywhere but fluffy powder, and biggest rubbish were..........kastle fx94..............perhaps because I have tiny feet and the centre point is miles too far back for me. I tried to convince myself they were good for ages and kept trying them................but they were dire and stupidly expensive, i could have had 4 pairs of s3's at what i paid for them! lesson.........Don't believe everything you read on the web!!!
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
carroz,
Have you still got the FX 94's?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
DB, sorry no.............gone....... and was i pleased that they went! they were fantastically well made (esp. compared to the s3 that are rather rough) and superb tune straight out of the plastic, unlike s3's again! but me and them did not get on
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
carroz,
Shame I have the Kästle TX87 (which is softer/lighter) as my soft conditions touring ski and get on with them well. Wouldn't have minded picking up the FX94 in a 176cm for non-touring days at a resonable cost.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
DB they were 176, pretty sure i needed to be at least 2cm further forward on them, but didn't want to redrill them.
MonteHelm, to answer your question on days / year skiing........prob 40 days a year on average, skiing for about 25 odd years. The 2 weeks specific off piste instruction 5 years ago corrected all sorts of faults and made things so much easier, instruction is the key, then once you don't struggle so much you can play with a sorts of skis to find out what you like/ don't like. Les Carroz ESF does guided off piste groups in high season for a bargain price of 276 euros for 6 days of 5 hours a day which I do at least once a season and I often book a group lesson in very low season and get 1 to 1 for a week.........go where we like!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
MonteHelm wrote:
This winter I had 10 amazing powder days on the Dolomites
Lucky you and welcome to snowheads. That's exceptional snow but sadly not typical. Usually, if I am on holiday and there is lots of new snow then I would rent some bigger skis.
MonteHelm wrote:
while off piste powder was so light I had to be on the backseat all the time, which resulted in very sore knees for 6 weeks after my trip.
Hence started thinking whether proper powder skis would have helped (and saved a lot of knee pain)…
The only thing that will save you from this type of knee pain is having good technique. If you ski with bad technique using fat skis your knees will hurt even more.
The 'instructor' who told you to ski back seat really doesn't know what he is talking about. That's not old school technique, it's just plain bad advice.
Lessons(ask on here for some instructor recommendations) and some more experience under your belt is what you really need.
MonteHelm, for your perspective, I think I'm on day 45 this season, I ski around 60 days a year, have skied for 42 years (since I was 4). Skiing a mix of a little racing, much general pootling (esp. when with friends who may be less adventurous) and off piste whenever conditions suit (one can usually find something worth skiing that hasn't been bashed out of existence - or find some nice lines of bumps). I will generally have tune up instruction every couple of seasons or so.
My day to day ski is a Volkl Mantra (96 or 98 mm underfoot) which will seems to work very well for anything that doesn't involve gates. They were delightful in the early Feb mega-powder and will be lovely in the late April mush and crud and they carve more or less like my Racetiger GS on icy pistes.
Quote:
who told you to ski back seat really doesn't know what he is talking about
+1, you want a balanced position in powder fore and aft and more balanced across both skis; you really need to be in the sweet spot - which is all about technique and nothing to do with kit. That may be a little back from where one weights for other snow types, but leaning back will be tiring and give you even less control.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Punisher's are a good shout! Skied them 2 weeks ago and have to say its one of the easiest skis I have ever skied off piste yet still remarkably good on the piste. They take a little bit of getting used too on piste but once you have they are great. (we have some for cracking prices as well ) my advice would be to pick them up long!
S7's are a good shout too however not as good on the pistes as the above. Whitedots are pretty stiff so may not be that forgiving if your only just getting into offpiste skiing.
I've just replaced my Icelantic Pilgrims (90mm) with Line Prophets (98mm) which are plenty wide enough for my off piste excursions (although I'm planning a lot more next year). When I first skied the Pilgrims I found them quite difficult on piste but got the hang of them fairly quickly, I'm hoping the Prophets will be similar. I do have a pair of 73mm skis also though and take both when luggage isn't an issue.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Lot more interesting feedback
Sounds like the general advice is to ski some more and get some more lessons – thanks everyone for their input
Quite happy to hear that: I've always taken lessons during my skiing trips, to the point where I was feeling bad about spending that tuition money, thinking I should just, dunno, learn by myself…. Kinda like by divine enlightenment.
Kitenski, Ski – thanks for the comments on the Lords… I googled for some more info and videos and made me like them more.
Btw, Cynic – did you really find the Lords that bad?
Zero-g, Dansimth interesting to hear those S7 / Director and Punisher / Director comparisons.
All things considered, I'll try to get few more days on the slope at Easter with some tuition and then see: might leave the new planks till next season – I'll let you know.
I'm pretty excited with my personal progress this winter: still a lot to learn, but I kind of feel I ski with some more awareness now, for example when getting things wrong or when I get them right… all was sort of lost before.
Regarding the instructors, mmmhhh…. Yeah I know those were not great suggestions.
In all fairness, I've got to say they are accomplished racers (some to pretty high level), just not experienced in off piste (and to my surprise some of them were struggling, to the point that I was almost more fluent).
For sure resorts like Chamonix would offer better opportunities for off piste and lessons: I tried Evolution2 in the past and was quite happy….
Maybe next year….
Carro, Under a new name – thanks for the info on your personal experience… I guess going for 1 week per year doesn't do much for improving technique.
I've done about 20 days this year (my plans of 3 months sabbatical didn't go down too well at work), which has helped a lot…. Unfortunately fitting such long holidays with work isn't always easy.
Mmmhh…. I need to find a way to get more skiing time!
Cheers!
After all it is free
After all it is free
MonteHelm,
Tips on skiing more often: (based on our situation at the time)
- minimise time off work so while Xmas and New Year can be expensive, book flights early and stay somewhere less "popular".
- Easter seems now to be generally considered too late but we always ski Easter weekend, consider, you can take two days off work and ski for 6.
- late evening arrival, early morning departure and straight to the office.
- nothing wrong with two day ski weekends...
In our last year based out of the UK we managed 57 days skiing and only took 10 days leave...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
MonteHelm,
Quote:
Mmmhh…. I need to find a way to get more skiing time!
Cynic and I (and a fair few others here) manage to ski every week or thereabouts, all year, even in the UK. I can't promise powder, but you can keep those skills developing.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
MonteHelm wrote:
Sounds like the general advice is to ski some more and get some more lessons – thanks everyone for their input
Well I'm a snowboarder, although I can ski to. Although there's no substitute for expertise, riding powder with powder boards is much more sensible than riding it on slalom skis. I ride with a *lot* of skiers, and you will have more fun and learn faster on the right gear.
No one rides bottomless powder at least on piste gear. I ride with a lot of excellent riders who could no doubt do that backwards, but they don't do it because it's less fun. 30cm on a pisted base isn't bottomless: you're still mostly riding the base, so it's easier than back country powder on piste gear. Even so, proper powder gear is a joy to use in that sort of condition, although it is necessarily a compromise (you will be riding some piste, so dedicated powder gear will be less good on there).
So to answer your points:
Obviously being in the back seat takes a lot of effort, although you'll see some guides prone to doing that so it's a hard habit to get out of. It does take it out of you, so not only will it limit how well you can ride, it'll limit how long you can do it for.
Powder skis would help. Renting them is probably the way to go, as that way you can work out what you like and decide if the compromise is where you want it.
Ellis Brigham shop workers may have ridden powder, although you've no real way to tell and they may be on commission. It's hard to see how you could test their stuff effectively, even if you can afford UK prices.
Reverse cambered skis are extremely popular for deep powder at the moment. Good skiers seem to opt for the less extreme variants; the most rockered stuff seems to allow novices in the back seat to survive. The problem with that last is that I'm not sure that the "park stance" kids on the rockered skis will ever become good skiers - it's a bit like the snow plough turn: I think they may find it hard to progress from there.
As far as models are concerned they change every year and as a snowboarder I can't really tell them apart. Ask a skier, although pick one who can actually ski powder of course.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hey Philwig
That's exactly what started my initial question… actually questions.
I agree: experience above everything, but also right tool for the job are important, like in everything I guess.
My current skies are all mountain mid-fat, so no right or wrong answer I guess:
They're probably pretty spot on for what I need to do now, as they're wider than piste/slalom skies.
At the same time I think that a more specific powder ski could also work… at this level of experience (like Zero-G was saying) or perhaps after a couple more weeks' skiing.
The main thing is that I wanted to make sure I wasn't using/doing anything wrong.
I saw some S7 (bloody end of season sales, they're so tempting… although these were not on sale yet) - from what I have seen, comparing skis in stores, they have a veeery nice flex which I like.
They're in 178 which is what Rossi recommends on their site, although general opinion is to go for 188:
Someone was suggesting to choose the length based on the turn shape of more interest (178: slalom; 188: GS)
In the meantime I have booked my Easter break
It was still snowing yesterday – hopefully snow will last a few more days!
I think the local rental shop there has got some Dynastar Legends in probably around 95-100mm by the look of it: might be too much of a charger from what I've read on the web, but could still be interesting to try for one run, just for comparison.
True also regarding shop staff – you never know.
I must say that particular guy seems to know his stuff (and he also suggested the only ski that was on sale at the time, instead of more expensive models….. Although could have been they have to get rid of them…)
Anyhow, thanks for all the interesting feedback
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Under a new name, Ski - I'm impressed!
Now that's commitment!
We did try a long weekend before, although for work commitments it was easier to go for the week…. And more relaxing too… at the end of the day, that was also time off work
Ski – I agree with your comment on skiing buddies btw
Also, just to clarify, when I asked about experience and how many days per year you guys spend on snow, it was to map equipment advice to expertise:
For example my instructor said his boots were soft, as they were "only" 130 flex… while to me that would be like flexing a brick.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
"...they have a veeery nice flex which I like."
How did you get to test that?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Hey Mosha Marc
that was purely comparing them in the store, i.e. hand-flexing them - tail on the floor, one hand on the tip, one pressing in the middle.
I understand that actually skiing them is a completely different matter, and that someone will argue there might be best ways of hand flexing too.
When i got the Lords a few years back, I tried them in an indoor slope and then went with shop advice - i have never actually paid attention to the flex, so but I find it interesting to understand the differences in flex. Naive perhaps... but I'd say little pleasures of learning
That's all...
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I've never, ever understood what hand flexing in a shop tells you!
I've skied 30+ years, skied all mountain skis for the past 10+ years, got my first 100mm+ pair 2 years ago. Hated them for 24 hours, now love 'em!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
kitenski, depends, i like stiffies and have learned what stiff feels like hand flexing - or at least have learned what is a soft noodle that i'll hate feels like. But fair enough it aint exactly load testing
freezeproshop in Edinburgh have a great online sale on for next couple of days, eg rossy s7 178 on the go for 367.50
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
kitenski wrote:
I've never, ever understood what hand flexing in a shop tells you!
Loads! It's the skiing equivalent of bouncing around a car park on your new full sus bike
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
on this theme, what does progressive flex feel like, surely all flex is progressive from tip to tail? The new buzz word in ski reviews also seems to be directional, anybody tell me what this means? Someone on here said the Armada TST was a less Directional JJ, it is a skinnier JJ without tail rocker, how is this less directional??
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
or maybe it was more directional anyway, what does that mean?
Yup, I'd say it can give you a rough indication? Even if that being simply stiffer or softer than one's current skis.
And if any, it can be a sort of self defense against weird shop assistants like this one:
or maybe it was more directional anyway, what does that mean?
I thought directional referred to skiing forward – so the TSTs being more directional meaning they're designed to ski forward as opposed to the JJs which are also good (or better than the TSTs) for skiing switch ?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
for me its a simple comaprison to my favourite, still going, stiff as a girder skis, i know what they feel like to hand flex, so can compare to other ones in a shop. My weight in the past meant i was pretty sensitive to ski flex, needing a good firm platform to haul my fatass around. I'm a slimmed down version these days but still prefer skis on the stiffer side, and i can tell which ones are on the stiffer side with a hand flex. Similarly i know that certain manufacturers have tended towards stiffer skis generally - probably not as prevalent in last year or two but still valid. Most people have "preferred" brands, just another reason for preference, even if it is a bit subjective (me at 125kgs perception of ski flex versus me at 85kgs perception may well change/be different)
my understanding of "progressive" flex is simply stiffer in the middle and softer at tips and potentially at the tails, depending on the ski, in other words skis have always had progressive flex? Similar with directional - ie going this direction along the ski you get soft/stiffer/slightly less stiffer etc. Just marketing bollox?
After all it is free
After all it is free
I've no idea what progressive flex is either; is it the genesis of ski flexation?
While I do know that I do better with stiffer products, I have no idea how that feels by hand flexing.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
^ stiff?
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
MonteHelm, I would not set any store, at all, with what you can feel in the shop -- especially with a shop assistant in tow. Your current skis seem ideal for what you are doing, I'd enjoy them until they fall apart - and then look for something similar.
Looking at your weight -- you won't need huge fatties to float anyway
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
If your skis can't float you they'll tend to sink or dive; if you're getting tipped backwards then something is probably amiss in your stance, not your equipment.
and have learned what stiff feels like hand flexing - or at least have learned what is a soft noodle that i'll hate feels like. But fair enough it aint exactly load testing
