 Poster: A snowHead
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| proteus wrote: |
No, it was all lent to me by the instructor, boots and skis. He wasn't set up in any ski school, just someone who was a friend of a friend of my sisters.
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Sounds like that may be the problem - "He wasn't set up in any ski school". Do you know if he was a proper instructor with recognised ski instructor qualifications?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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proteus, to be honest, I can't see that the hindsight advice, what ifs, things I could have done differently etc. is going to help much at this stage (save all that for when it's time to get back on a pair of skis). Be grateful that you are young, fit and healthy and, as albinomountainbadger says, are likely to have very strong leg muscles already, which will definitely help with the recovery process.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| proteus wrote: |
| No, it was all lent to me by the instructor, boots and skis. He wasn't set up in any ski school, just someone who was a friend of a friend of my sisters. |
So not at all an instructor then??
Weird thread. |
Well I guess it's semantics. I was intending to get lessons to get me going, be it a ski school or whatever.
My 'instructor' was recommended to my sister (my sister moved out to Slovenia a few years ago, so she has a network of friends). My 'instructor' most probably no formal qualifications. He charged me 30 Euro an hour, so I guess you get what you pay for.
I was told he was a good ski 'instructor' – he was obviously just an experienced skier but a poor teacher.
I was looking for lessons, he was recommended, perhaps my use of the phrase 'instructor' is a bit of a misnomer, but that's what I understood him to be.
If it happened to me, outside of an official ski school, so it could happen to others, and my experience might help avoid this. I'm quiet unequivocal about the tight binding being the reasons for the damage I sustained, albeit with an unofficial teacher, so thought there would be some value in my post for a beginner, perhaps just trying out skiing for the first time with friends etc.
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albinomountainbadger, last week in Les Arcs the hire shop used a computerised weighing scale; you put your boot in a guage slot and stood on the scales, then pressed buttons relating to sex, age, abilty, etc... and then a print out appeared with a DIN setting which was dutifully dialled in to the bindings by the ski tech...
First time I had seen anything like it... usually we try to remember what it was last year or they run their finger across a grubby print out, mumbling about 'what you do?' 'are you any good?'. My pals always say they're experts, whereas I always say y'know 'not bad - mediumish' . Always worked for us though... 
Sorry to hear about the OP's accident. One of my pals got his bindings tangled up getting off a chair lift and ruptured his ACL, but a year later he's back skiing with a knee brace and lots of ice-packs afterwards.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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proteus, yes, your warning about bindings is correct and useful.
Since absolute beginners cannot be expected to know the details to do it themselves, I think the higher-level advice that emerges from the detail is to get kit from a reputable rental shop, and instruction from a qualified person.
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| WayneC wrote: |
| albinomountainbadger, last week in Les Arcs the hire shop used a computerised weighing scale; you put your boot in a guage slot and stood on the scales, then pressed buttons relating to sex, age, abilty, etc... and then a print out appeared with a DIN setting which was dutifully dialled in to the bindings by the ski tech... |
We had one of those in Meribel a few years back, none of my colleagues had any faith in it. Sadly it also took longer to explain to customers how to use it than it did to just ask the questions...
| WayneC wrote: |
| My pals always say they're experts, |
Well, if they're not, it's only their legs at risk! That one always makes us laugh in the shops though. To a French or Austrian ski tech, an 'expert' is someone who has been in ski club every week hitting slalom gates during his school years, and probably skis for a living as guide/instructor/pisteur now in his adult life. The average Brit (or Parisian!) who leaves his office to do a two black runs a day during one week every season isn't really on that level no matter what he thinks... That said, after a few years in the gig most of us can very quickly tell just how good you really are (and, ladies, just how much you really weigh!!), before you've even answered the question so I suspect your mates DINs have never actually been dialled up to 'expert' (clue: experts don't hire boots and skis)
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| Quote: |
It's calculated on your weight, the sole length of the boot, gender, and your ability. Height and/or length of skis are commonly mistaken to be involved but in fact don't come into it. Google " AFNOR Din ski " or similar for details.
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I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) but age is obviously missing from your list: young children and older skiers get a weaker DIN. In the charts used at our slope height is relevant in that if you are disproportionately short for your weight you'd get a weaker DIN, but if you're disproportionately tall it wouldn't give you a stronger DIN.
Amusingly using google for the above search now turns up this thread.
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| laundryman wrote: |
proteus, yes, your warning about bindings is correct and useful.
Since absolute beginners cannot be expected to know the details to do it themselves, I think the higher-level advice that emerges from the detail is to get kit from a reputable rental shop, and instruction from a qualified person. |
This is the most important message to beginners, I'd say.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| kieranm wrote: |
| Quote: |
It's calculated on your weight, the sole length of the boot, gender, and your ability. Height and/or length of skis are commonly mistaken to be involved but in fact don't come into it. Google " AFNOR Din ski " or similar for details.
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I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) but age is obviously missing from your list: young children and older skiers get a weaker DIN. In the charts used at our slope height is relevant in that if you are disproportionately short for your weight you'd get a weaker DIN, but if you're disproportionately tall it wouldn't give you a stronger DIN.
Amusingly using google for the above search now turns up this thread. |
You're right on the age of course, mea culpa! Though on our sheets it's only older people (over 50) who get special consideration ("go up a line"), not kids.
My Google is French so it gives me this as the first result: http://www.skitrace.com/normes-reglage-fixations-ski.php There's a rather ugly chart on that page.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Tue 5-03-13 18:40; edited 1 time in total
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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... are guys being uncharacteristically arsey here, or am I imagining it? Is the forum time of the monthing it?
A complete beginner might trust someone who says they are an instructor - it's not entirely unreasonable. Though I guess nowadays, assume everyone is lying should perhaps be the norm. ACL injuries suck. (However friend did basically every thing in her knees she could, was walking at 3 months and totally fine a year later, though still not happy to do jiu-jitsu because of the twisting motion involved... but yeah - almost perfect recovery / better than original is possible.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| OliviaDB wrote: |
| ... are guys being uncharacteristically arsey here |
I don't think so. The OP offered some advice. While his advice is certainly reasonable, the 'check out your equipment source and - especially -"instructor"' advice is actually more practical for the absolute beginner.
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You know it makes sense.
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| OliviaDB wrote: |
... are guys being uncharacteristically arsey here, or am I imagining it? Is the forum time of the monthing it?
A complete beginner might trust someone who says they are an instructor - it's not entirely unreasonable. |
I don't see why; if your boiler wasn't working would you be happy if a friend of your brother's friend 'who's a bit handy at DIY' came around to take it apart? You'd want ID, certificates, at least a company name...
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Tue 5-03-13 18:56; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| laundryman wrote: |
| OliviaDB wrote: |
| ... are guys being uncharacteristically arsey here |
I don't think so. The OP offered some advice. While his advice is certainly reasonable, the 'check out your equipment source and - especially -"instructor"' advice is actually more practical for the absolute beginner. |
mmm ... it's more the tone. I just detected a hint of 'it's your fault for not checking instructor/going to hire shop' ish ness.
But I'm tired and hungover from excessive aging, so maybe it's my bored imagination. Indeed, the responses from the OP suggests I've detected something not there.
Ho hum.
HELLO EVERYBODY.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| kieranm wrote: |
I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) |
Can someone explain this to me? If all else is equal (height, weight, ability etc) what difference does gender make?
proteus, hope you recover quickly.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| swiftoid wrote: |
| kieranm wrote: |
I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) |
Can someone explain this to me? If all else is equal (height, weight, ability etc) what difference does gender make? |
Different centres of gravity (aka 'lady-lumps'?  ).
Also why some female ski binding systems supposedly have raised heel plates in comparison to the male equivalent.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OliviaDB, it was more about getting to the facts because the various posts by the OP were a tad confusing. While beginners rarely know squat, caveat emptor still applies and ignorance is no excuse when you buy a product or service – the web has provided everyone with an internet connection with the ability to gain enough knowledge to avoid being fleeced.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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OliviaDB, first response was a bit poo-poo but I think everyone after that is fairly well meaning.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| OliviaDB, it was more about getting to the facts because the various posts by the OP were a tad confusing. While beginners rarely know squat, caveat emptor still applies and ignorance is no excuse when you buy a product or service – the web has provided everyone with an internet connection with the ability to gain enough knowledge to avoid being fleeced. |
I dunno. Maybe it's because I'm lazy, but I expect a person selling themselves as an instructor to be one. I tend not to check qualifications. That said, I tend to ski only in France and Austria, and do research schools beforehand, so at least know if they LOOK reputable. Hmm.
OOH, I've made this about me. I'm skilled.
HOMETIME! *I'll be back voice*
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albinomountainbadger, thanks 
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| OliviaDB wrote: |
... are guys being uncharacteristically arsey here, or am I imagining it? Is the forum time of the monthing it?
A complete beginner might trust someone who says they are an instructor - it's not entirely unreasonable. Though I guess nowadays, assume everyone is lying should perhaps be the norm. ACL injuries suck. (However friend did basically every thing in her knees she could, was walking at 3 months and totally fine a year later, though still not happy to do jiu-jitsu because of the twisting motion involved... but yeah - almost perfect recovery / better than original is possible.) |
The OP made a few error of judgement, and that shows on his "advice" too.
First, he trusted a (probably) unqualified instructor, who didn't even know enough to get him skis appropiate for his skill level. Aside from the binding being set too high, I wouldn't be surprised the skis might also be too long for a rank beginner also!
Seeing the said "instructor" lack of knowledge on equipment, I'm not even sure how experienced of a skier he really is, let alone his teaching ability.
Second, on the advice of "check your binding setting". That's totally unreasonable for a first timer to be able to know what is the right setting! Most beginners can barely figure out what length their skis should be, bindging setting is way down in that list!!!
The OP, or any beginner, should be checking is the source of the equipment and qualification of instructors.
It is true a first timer doesn't know what he doesn't know. His inexperience led to him trusting the wrong person who gave him the wrong skis/binding.
But his advice of checking binding setting is entirely mis-placed. You don't question whether your surgeon's using fishing line to stitch your wound.  You question if he's a qualified surgeon BEFORE you have him work on you!
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| albinomountainbadger wrote: |
| swiftoid wrote: |
| kieranm wrote: |
I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) |
Can someone explain this to me? If all else is equal (height, weight, ability etc) what difference does gender make? |
Different centres of gravity (aka 'lady-lumps'? ).
Also why some female ski binding systems supposedly have raised heel plates in comparison to the male equivalent. |
I would say the most important difference is the angle of the pelvis. I had an epiphany moment with an instructor when he told me to angle my pelvis like a man and not like a woman (when tackling very steep pitches). It changed everything! And, as if by magic, steep pitches were no longer a physical struggle between me and the mountain.
Perhaps the lady bindings have raised heel plates because this changes the angle of the pelvis.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I'm suprised that no one has yet mentioned this handy online settings calculator:
http://www.dinsetting.com/
I've never heard of gender being taken into account before but I guess it may effect your choice of 'skier type'.
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| swiftoid wrote: |
| kieranm wrote: |
I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) |
Can someone explain this to me? If all else is equal (height, weight, ability etc) what difference does gender make?
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Women tend to have narrower knee joints so will be able to apply more torque to their ligaments.
There is a version of the DIN chart that uses tibia head (knee) width instead of height.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Zero-G wrote: |
I would say the most important difference is the angle of the pelvis. I had an epiphany moment with an instructor when he told me to angle my pelvis like a man and not like a woman (when tackling very steep pitches). It changed everything! And, as if by magic, steep pitches were no longer a physical struggle between me and the mountain.
Perhaps the lady bindings have raised heel plates because this changes the angle of the pelvis. |
... how do men angle their pelvises (that makes it sound like each man has more than one. Hmm)? Please demonstrate, with photos.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| abc wrote: |
| But his advice of checking binding setting is entirely mis-placed. You don't question whether your surgeon's using fishing line to stitch your wound. You question if he's a qualified surgeon BEFORE you have him work on you! |
Good point. *nods at your wisdom*
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| rjs wrote: |
| swiftoid wrote: |
| kieranm wrote: |
I've not seen gender used before (although can see why it might) |
Can someone explain this to me? If all else is equal (height, weight, ability etc) what difference does gender make?
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Women tend to have narrower knee joints so will be able to apply more torque to their ligaments.
There is a version of the DIN chart that uses tibia head (knee) width instead of height. |
All electronic torque testing machines have a gender button. Gender is also very important for over 50's in that latest research indicates that after that age 3 out of 10 men develop some level of osteoporosis but in women it's 7 out of 10.
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You know it makes sense.
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OliviaDB, the pelvic girdle in women is angled differently to men’s. Google is your friend.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| OliviaDB, the pelvic girdle in women is angled differently to men’s. Google is your friend. |
it wasn't really. How do you change your female stance to be more like a mans?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Zero-G wrote: |
| OliviaDB, the pelvic girdle in women is angled differently to men’s. Google is your friend. |
You spoiled my attempt at getting crotch shots!
But in all seriousness, by quick google suggests the difference is in the bone, not in the position it is held at - so how can you change this while skiing?
Feet wider apart if female?
http://altunderground.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/q-angle-female-male.jpg
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OliviaDB, from a lateral view, women tend to angle their pelvis backwards, basically creating more arch in the lumbar spine and sticking their bums out. Men tend to angle their pelvis forwards, thus tucking their bums and sticking their genitals out, so to speak.
In skiing terms, tucking your pelvis (and bottom) in, seems to change how you balance over your skis.
Here's an experiment: stand in a neutral position with your feet at hip width. Now, bend your knees like you do when you're skiing and lean forwards slightly. Stick your bum out (you can exaggerate this). Now, tuck your bum in (sort of like trying to pull the bottom of your pelvic bone towards your belly button), again, exaggerate this. Notice how you feel more stable when your bum is tucked in and bottom of the pelvis is angled forward? Perhaps this is because your abdominal muscles are more engaged when the pelvis is tucked forward... I don't know but it definitely completely changes how stable I feel when skiing really steep pitches – I have way more control.
Crotch shots are for another forum entirely
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| How do you change your female stance to be more like a mans? |
stick your hand down the front of your salopettes should do the trick!!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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proteus, what's happened here is you unfortunately ended up improvising with your "ski instructor", and now you have real and serious consequences as your major leisure activity for 51 weeks of the year severely compromised..
In all my years of skiing, I have only ever seen ski-shops set bindings too loose. They have often been unwilling to tighten them even when I have specified where I want them set.
For a ski instructor to give advanced skis to a beginner is injury waiting to happen. You don't put a learner driver behind the wheel of a HGV
OliviaDB, its not a question of being arsey, but a think you get that message now
Noone would go to an unqualified doctor, but there are also possible very significant bad consequences with nonqualified ski instructors, mountain guides etc
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altis, reference your chart suggestion I would not suggest its use as it is inaccurate suggesting for me a level of 9.5 when a Salomon chart shows 7 and I use charts a lot.
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spyderjon, do you have any links to the latest charts, re gender, never heard of it either? Cheers.
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I think it is a real shame that the OP has suffered such a severe injury. I wish them a speedy recovery, and I hope other beginners do read this thread. I think the key message is go to trusted shops/ski schools, no matter how well meaning your friends are.
While I do think that perhaps the OP was a little trusting, I don't think it entirely reckless to trust friends to recommend a good instructor.
I would imagine it's a bit like learning to drive, rather than the surgeon/doctor analogy used earlier. You want to learn to drive, a friend recommends a driving instructor. As you are new to driving you don't know that the car you are driving is not a dual control learner car for example. Then the instructor takes you on a motorway after 20 minutes. You have a crash and are hurt. It turns out the instructor is not actually an instructor, and the car you were driving was not right for a learner.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| gatecrasher wrote: |
| spyderjon, do you have any links to the latest charts, re gender, never heard of it either? Cheers. |
As mentioned above, http://www.skitrace.com/normes-reglage-fixations-ski.php looks OK, bearing the words: "Vous trouverez ci-dessous les Normes AFNOR pour la valeur de déclenchement." // "Below are the AFNOR standards on binding release". First table is women, second is men, down below is the description of each 'skier type'.
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albinomountainbadger, thanks will take a look see, always used the Salomon shop practices in the past so guess they aren't really up to date with it all yet.
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