 Poster: A snowHead
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Hi all,
With the previous threads on how the French are targetting British Transfer Operators I felt the need to share some email correspondence I received from what IMHO is a company providing totally illegal transfers in and out of Morzine to/from Geneva Airport. I feel compelled to 'name and shame' as this sort of activity can give all the legitimate operators a bad name too.
Into my inbox came the following email from MountainMoments.co.uk
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93759708@N08/8520167305/in/photostream
As you can read, they were offering seat availability, on their 14 seat Mercedes Minibus between Morzine and Geneva Airport, to other legitimate transfer operators.
Knowing the industry well, and the legislation required, I like to protect my customers so to carry out 'due dilligence' enquired of MountainMoments.co.uk if they could provide a copy of their Operators Licence and the Vehicle Insurance.
This is the response I received this morning:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/93759708@N08/8520175187/in/photostream
So, this guy has taken the International CPC exam. Assuming he passed, then he will be fully aware that you cannot transport ANY passengers before your Operators Licence is granted. He'll know this, as part of the exam questions are on this very subject. By his own admission he doesn't hold a French issued Operators Licence.
He says, he has applied for a UK issued Operators Licence, 'just in case'. The UK Traffic Commissioner clearly states on the Application Form in big, bold, black leters that on no account can you commence to transport passengers BEFORE your licence is granted and your Operator Discs for the vehicle are received.
Then he will also know, having taken the exam, that in any case, you cannot transport passengers from France to Switzerland and vice versa, on a UK issued Operators Licence as that is called 'Grand Cabotage' and is illegal under International Law.
The UK Traffic Commissioners helpfully publish a document online called 'Notices and Proceedings' every two weeks which lists all pending applications for Licences, decisions, and public inquirys etc. A quick search did not bring up any pending application for Mountain Moments Ltd.
So this company appear to be transporting not only their own chalet guests illegally, but potentially also the general public. If any of the other transfer operators approached have not bothered to carry out 'due dilligence' to protect themselves and their customers, then their customers may find themselves unwittingly travelling on an illegal transfer, which also means they are uninsured in the event of an accident.
As an aside, as a chalet operator that is also providing transport, then you come under the 1992 EU Directive on Package travel arrangements, as you are providing 2 or more elements of a holiday 'package'. i.e. transport and accommodation. Therefore, you need to have financial protection in place. There is no mention of any financial protection within their T&C's.
So if you find yourself on a 14 seat minibus to/from Morzine belonging to Mountain Moments Ltd. or are staying in their chalet. Perhaps ask some pertinent questions.
Cheers.
Andrew
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Sat 2-03-13 13:43; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the first link above, their availability for the 16th March caught my eye. It implies that there is 1 x 8 seat minibus also being operated here too. Unless their 14 can be in two places at once?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Well, this is not some clapped-out, uninsured, late night unlicensed London curb crawler driven by a rapist is it? Your headline is a bit sensational eh? Having looked at their site, seen what he's written to you, I'd merrily let them drive me and my family between Morzine and Geneva. I would imagine that there are many small operators all over the alps giving their customers lifts from A to B without all the necessary paperwork in place. We're not hearing about carnage.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, wouldn't it be Busage?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Mosha Marc, I think the "carn" is something to do with butchered meat. And you clearly have too much time on your hands.
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Hence the reason I'm on here. 
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Chamexpress,
Zzzzzzzzzzzzz. Small company chancing it to try to make ends meet. Have you phoned the The Sun, are we going to DEFCON 3?
I for one am not really bothered: your greetin, tell tale O/P bothered me more.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Chamexpress, has taken the time to inform people that an illegal (yes if they fail to comply with regulations it is illegal) transfer operation is going on, what the heck is the matter with those of you who are taking the pee ?
Let me ask you a question, if your child were on such a transfer and through no fault of the driver there was a serious accident and it turned out the bus company was running an illegal operation and therefore you suddenly have no insurance cover how would you feel then ?
Or lets put it far less dramatically what happens if you turn up and this operator has had his vehicle impounded because he's running an illegal transfer company and you have to pay out a second time for your transfers ?
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What if the transfer company did it to hundreds of children, but they only chose to speak about it 30 years later?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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D G Orf, ...if it is the case that the lack of certification invalidates the insurance, then ChamExpress has done exactly the right thing. After having friends badly injured by uninsured drivers it's clear that this is a serious issue and not to be trivialised.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| valais2 wrote: |
| D G Orf, ...if it is the case that the lack of certification invalidates the insurance, |
It wouldn't.
Insurance regulations (EU wide) mean they are not allowed to invalidate third party insurance for that sort of thing, any more than they are for driving without an MOT.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
Let me ask you a question, if your child were on such a transfer and through no fault of the driver there was a serious accident and it turned out the bus company was running an illegal operation and therefore you suddenly have no insurance cover how would you feel then ?
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Chamexpress is touting for business. Third party insurance would not be invalidated if the driver was stoned and drunk. Looks like a small firm trying to make the best of it. Nearly booked 4 transfers there and 4 back with Chamexpress for next week after the Simon thing. Read this thread and booked them with Mountain Moments instead. Better rates, more flexibility and the 3rd party insurance is as good....... wow - the EU got something right 
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You know it makes sense.
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| Chamexpress, has taken the time to inform people that an illegal (yes if they fail to comply with regulations it is illegal) transfer operation is going on, what the heck is the matter with those of you who are taking the pee ? |
Pure altruism I am sure.
After coming out of the Simon thing looking like a bully, I will take anything this company says with a pinch of salt.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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So let me just be clear in my own mind on this please Thornyhill, ringingmaster, you are saying that it is perfectly ok for a company to set up in buisness carrying paying passengers without the correct certifications for the country they operate in, so long as they pass on those savings to the passengers ?...... 
I assume you would also be ok for example with slave labour being used to make your shoes or pick your food so long as you benefited from the savings ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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Hi.. There seems to be a few people getting a little confused here - or maybe I didn't make myself clear. I made no mention of 3rd party insurance. I said that without an Operators Licence the insurance is invalidated.
Let me clarify. In order to transport passengers for 'hire and reward' (that includes as party of a chalet holiday package) then it is a requirement to have 'Passenger Liability Insurance' which is part of the vehicle insurance requirement. This is an extremely restricted insurance marketplace and there are only 4 or 5 UK Insurers underwriting this cover now. In France, it is again only 3 or 4 Insurers, as the risk is potentially enormous for them.
As it is a UK registered vehicle, then it is likely insured with a UK company. However, it can't be insured for 'Hire and Reward' as the underwriters ask for a copy of the Operators Licence and check the licence against the Traffic Commissioners records. As MountainMoments.co.uk admit they don't have an Operators Licence then it means that they can't have 'Hire and Reward and Passenger Liability' cover.
So what does this mean in practice? We'll most accidents that happen on mountain roads don't actually involve a 2nd vehicle, so the 3rd party insurance argument doesn't apply. Let's take an example; if the driver skids on some ice and sends the vehicle off the road. 3 passengers are injured and can't work for 6 months, and 1 passenger dies. There is absolutely no insurance cover for any of those passengers. Nada.
The insurance company will have expressly excluded 'use for hire and reward' from the policy. As does, anyones normal vehicle insurance.
That is the implication here. Added to that, the owner/operator of the illegal vehicle goes to jail and is landed with a minimum 25,000 euro fine. That's how it works in France. As for the driver, he would face negligence charges for knowingly driving a vehicle with passengers without an Operators Licence - An original of which must be carried onboard the vehicle at all times. Falling to carry, or produce one to the Gendarmarie when asked, results in an on-the-spot fine for the driver of 750 Euros.
If some of you want to take the pee, then feel free - it really doesn't bother me. I've done my bit by making people aware. So if, and when, it all goes wrong for some poor sod/child/family/mother/father/girlfriend etc. on the illegal minibus, don't say you weren't aware.
I guess a current analogy would be; the consumer demanding lower and lower cost food and then being outraged when someone decides to illegally slip horsemeat in it and label it beef. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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We should get Simon Walsh back on who is an expert in customer relations and he can settle this whole thing
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| D G Orf wrote: |
So let me just be clear in my own mind on this please Thornyhill, ringingmaster, you are saying that it is perfectly ok for a company to set up in buisness carrying paying passengers without the correct certifications for the country they operate in, so long as they pass on those savings to the passengers ?......
I assume you would also be ok for example with slave labour being used to make your shoes or pick your food so long as you benefited from the savings ? |
I was questioning the motives of shamexpress, given recent history on SH. I suspect there will be more to this than meets the eye. ooh I don't know - some personal animosity perhaps?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Chamexpress,
Give it a break man, shouldn't you be busy running your business? You informed us this was taking place and some will take heed of the warning but others won't (or they just don't care) coming back on to tell us we are not understanding the point then launching into a basil fawlty like rant is doing your reputation no good, especially as you have some history on here.
Turn off your computer and go and look at the mountains and if you bump into some Germans, don't mention the war! (and don't slap any Spanish waiters while your at it).
Seriously, do yourself and your business a favour and put it to bed
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I am kinda with Chamexpress here. Regardless of whatever happened in the Simon thing - I don't think we ever did find out - He has invested a lot of money and time no doubt in ensuring that he has qualified drivers, a licensed operation etc etc. I think most people would be miffed if others rocked up and just broke the rules.
I don't think it does any harm to point out the insurance implications. Also, if any of the drives haven't actually taken a specific D / d1 category minibus test then their minibus licence won't be valid for driving in France for hire and reward.
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FAQ
