How to backflip out of an avalanche

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Sideshow_Bob, errrr, yeah, they can. All the competitors sign off that they understand the risks of death and serious injury - no recourse to the organisers unless the organisers are found criminally negligent which, frankly, would be a very tough case to make 99.999% of the time.Masque, is 100% correct although it is not beyond the realms of theory that an organiser could be sued, they would have to do something counciously dangerous to get there, IMHO, mere negligence would not run. In any event they generally CTA's by getting the local mountain piste security guys to check and approve the course (not that the organisers have an option most of the time).

Lanzinger's crash was a result of his taking off unbalanced because he started (and landed) outside the specifed course. His option to do so but he didn't have a leg to stand on ( Embarassed

) legally. The argument in Ulli's case is different. There might be an argument that the organisers should have covered the rock that killed her but at the end of day she lost control of her uphill ski (not equally weighted) and swerved off line and off the course uphill. I'd argue that it was not forseeable that a skier would have crashed in that direction and you can't cover every rock on the mountain with crash pads 'just in case'. The argument is much, much stronger for freestyle events.

Megamum, next time you see someone wearing one of those handles like that, give it a good tug. There are a lot of posers out there with fake handles gaffer taped on to their sacs. A good tug shows them up for what they are - wannabe posers and frauds. I reckon Liliequist was just posing too. I mean, he was in an avalance and did you see him go for the handle once?? He did everything but - Avi-sac poser for sure.

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RattytheSnowRat, LOL, I couldn't imagine them not wearing them these days given their availability, but then I looked at that backflip and wondered. I just imagine that they are a certain (fair?) weight and it adds to the impressiveness of anyone going for a backflip like that if they are doing so with heavy kit on their back - it's clever enouogh to see folks do it in a park environment, but out in an off piste area and carrying all that gear on their backs is something different, therefore I wondered if they took a chance and skied without them in a competition taking a calculated risk that conditions had been deemed safe enough to compete in.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Friend of mine was quite involved in the Freeride World Tour - what question would you like me to ask her, as I'd be too embarrassed directing her towards all this armchair theorising Puzzled

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Masque, Yes. Signed many waivers I have.

I've also had many events cancelled/postponed due to unsafe conditions.

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Sideshow_Bob, it's also a set premise of English law that you can 'assume the risk'. I agree - and stated above - that it is theoretically feasible to bring an action in English law since you cannot exclude liability for death and personal injury via contract where negligence is involved (is it still S.2 UCTA?). The chances of success, however, are remote.

As to your comment about summary dismissal, you are in error (as far as English law goes). It's almost unheard of for a case to be dismissed if both sides turn up, regardless of the evidence (or lack thereof). I have been party to a number of cases that should never - and did not - make it to court. In most cases, the parties settled prior to the court date, in a few the judge indicated that arbitration would be advised (which is code for 'don't bring this trashy case into my court and if you do be prepared to suffer the consequences - all of you'). They usually settled after arbitration as well. In the cases to which you are referring, the issue that would most likely have been raised in a potential court action is whether the contract laibility waiver was vitiated by some action - fraud, coercion, etc. - i.e. the Plaintiff would seek to set aside the contract, ab inito (from the beginning). Once that had been established then all the contractual defences would be non-existent. Courts are very wary of 'pre-judice' and like to see everyone have their day in court - almost all judges are ex-barristers and remember a pay day. I'd like to see a different system - the currrent one's broken - but there it is.

Since I believe both the incidents you are referring to occurred in Garmisch - i.e. Austria - I am going to drop out of this conversation since I am unaware of the law pertaining to such events there. My comments are limited to English law since, although I have passed the NY bar, each US state has a different slant and set of precedents on this area of law and I would guess Colorado is the front runner in terms of setting the standard for ski accident law.

If it's not a Simpon's reference, whay are you called 'Sideshow Bob'??? Wouldnt 'Slideshow Bod' be better???

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RattytheSnowRat, my comments on summary dismissal was based off a case in Utah - not surprisingly there're many more lawsuits regarding skiing in US resorts Smile

I think we're arguing the same thing anyway, just from different sides: a waiver does not cover all possible eventualities and an organiser of an event legally has some expectation of duty of care and can still be successfully sued if proven negligent regardless of any waiver signed. Oh, and my username is Simpsons-related and has so far resisted any change to something from the DC Comics world, altho if I buy those K2s it may have to change to SideStash_Bob Smile

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Sideshow_Bob, holding you to that, now go get 'em.

abj, I'll be easy on you. If it's any help, I just did it for laughs whilst I was working, I never intended to work in the US.

{scurries away now fairly concerned about locating his 'man card' and wondering if he ever had one - checks trousers - seems likely}

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Angry Squirrel, you sound like a fake pirate, m8. Where's your parrot and eye patch???

You know it makes sense.

Honestly? Willy waving? On this thread? Laughing

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Shimmy Alcott, well I did consider that option for the silliness of it, and ergo, if they carry the backpack that they must have something important like an airbag in it, but again I then look at that backflip, and think how the hell does he do that with the weight of things like the avalung and an airbag behind him?

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Megamum, He didn't intend to backflip, it was the weight of all the gear on his back that flipped him !

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beeryletcher, NehNeh

OK, it was a ridiculous suggestion, of course they carry avylungs and floats, but, considering that it's pretty amazing if they can fit in things like backflips on such an extreme run.

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don't the roolz of the comp often require competitors to carry at least a shovel and probe? setting a good example... even if it isn't really necessary in a comp where there are any number of rescuers on hand

if you have to carry a bag, it might as well be an airbag

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Arno, I've seen FWT vids where the participants do transceiver and rescue practise, so assumed they carried avy gear as standard.

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Zero-G, "airbag packs aren't heavy" you're having a laugh rolling eyes

That said once you have them on, you don't really notice the difference, but the weight between my light Osprey with kit and my ABS is substantial, and I have the carbon canister & ultra light pack.

Last week my other half was wearing mine and I was wearing a spare my mate has for his son and that was a couple of years old and real heavy.

I seem to recall that DaKine and Snowpulse two years ago were supplying competitors in the FreeRide world tour with them.

I will ask my friend who use to do all the PR for the tour and was at all the events - she set the BBC Ski Sunday feature up a few years ago, as to various issues that people are raising on here.

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Zero-G, no, in those clips they are looking for the beer cache. Usually it's marked with a set of crossed piste markers but some damn fool moved them ( we still think it was Gaffney but he swears blind it wasn't). Took ages to find but there was no way we could send those boys off that cliff sober. I mean, we are cruel but we are not inhuman. The 'avi-sacs' you see are in fact Camelbaks of vodka with drinking tubes disguised as handles. The back flip was probably a result of his losing balance after necking a quart of neat vodka on the way down. Happens more than you think, but generally they just fall over.

There - I feel soooo much better having come clean about that.

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Weathercam, you need to harden up. Most of the smaller systems are under 2.5kg with canister and the larger systems (for multi-day touring) are around 2.5kg with canister. That is not heavy.

Zero-G, it is weird but my snowpulse feels like it weighs a ton when i pick it up. it's OK once its on my back. the spec says it only weighs 1.5kg more than my other pack but it feels like a lot more

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Zero-G, that might well be the weight before you put anything into it !

As Arno says, and I alluded to they weigh considerably more that a normal pack, the only good thing being that you do not really notice it once on, but the pack on it's own is substantially heavier over a normal pack, there is no getting away from that!

And if your a petite female, like my Mrs you really notice it, the ABS packs EVO 2 had in Tignes were really stripped down (can't seem to find them for sale) but still heavy.

I've been using them three years now, day tours and hut to hut, plus straight off piste, an ABS vario with two sizes of pack, as have all my mates - so I do know what I'm talking about!

In fact I would go and weigh it, but it's travelling around in my mates van in the Pyrenees Puzzled

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Off topic but relevant, a lot of skiers when they start touring find one of the most difficult issues is carrying a bag with 7kg on their back and the negative effect on their skiing. So skiing with a bag with something in it is something to practice.

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I'm used to skiing with some serious camera equipment in my pack, so 2.5kg doesn't feel like a lot. I understand that if you're not accustomed to skiing with weight on your back it may be problematic at first. However, the original question raised in this thread is about experienced skiers and how they can do things like big mountain freeride lines and backflips with airbag packs. For them, my statement still stands that airbag packs are not heavy.

I have no idea about liability, but this link makes for interesting reading about how the organisers work behind the scenes:
http://www.swatchskierscup.com/news/items/on-snow-safety-at-the-swatch-skiers-cup.html

You know it makes sense.

magicrichard, yup - that describes the mountain guide sign off I described above as a 'CYA' for the organisers. As long as that is done I fail to see how the organisers could be held liable since the acknowledged experts have given their seal of approval prior to a single ski being launched in competiton. No other 'expert' is going to stand up and say that the local guides did anything wrong for the simple reason that they would not have seen the snow in that place at that time and do not have the local knowledge needed to judge it anyway.

Like I said - virtually no way for an organiser to be held liable without councious effort on their part.

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How to backflip out of an avalanche

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