How do I carve my turns?

A snowHead

Masque, my analogy is right on the money. A clip of a footballer in mid-air tells you nothing about his balanced body form or left/right weakness/bias. That clip of that ski racer shows him adopting any position he pleases to ski his line efficiently and even then his position is excellent. That's why clips of racers are used. Even at their limits they demonstrate solid fundamentals better than anyone else. Your analysis is I'm afraid plain wrong. I hope I don't need to tell you that the line is not symmetrical. Race courses are designed to challenge your balance. That is how they are difficult. Often there'll be a sequence of turns due to slope camber or set design that'll make a series of turns to one side easier or harder than turns to the other. Given the course set, slope camber and camera angle I personally don't see any undue assymmetry in stability/balance/control worth mentioning.

A snowHead

slikedges, I'm perfectly aware that the line is not symmetrical and I'm not commenting on his fundamentals. There is enough to show a pattern of body movement. If you cannot see it that isn't my problem it's yours. A footballer executing a single movement is a facile argument to compare with. Have him execute it three time form either foot and you can use it to decide which leg is the better and what parts of his frame are in stress or not. It is very rare not to have a bias in movement and I can guarantee you have one as do I and probably every snowhead . . . all to a greater or lesser degree and that young gentleman demonstrates his. Slope and camera angle do not hide this. People have patterns in movement and they are not THAT difficult to see. especially at half speed.

The fact that the course is asymmetrical accentuates the skiers movement patterns and makes it easier to see.

edit: the BASS skier in Rob's vid has a bias movement pattern it's quite clear . . . you going to tell me what it is?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I'd say he's a left hander at golf! wink

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gatecrasher, no banana for you snowHead

. . . edit out; don't want to make it toooo easy . . . oops there's a hint Shocked

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Masque, I agree, and good game.....oops...not my turn to guess Toofy Grin

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gatecrasher, I've no prob with people calling me out . . . I can be a obtuse prick . . . but they need to back it up with a bit of objective reasoning Twisted Evil

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Masque,

way past my bedtime, we'll have to leave the game out eh! There's more than one thing going on there, I have an idea about yours....possibly not far away from one I see....

After all it is free

gatecrasher, Nite . . . I'm out too

Receiving technical tips on a forum is not appropriate 99% of the time. It's just a one stop shop for giving someone the wrong end of the stick and possibly developing some bad habits.

Lessons + Practice. Together they work 10x better than one without the other

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This has all been, an excellent read. After all things considered, I think Elston's "lessons + practice" sounds like a good recipe for success. Practicing is good, why? Because it means more skiing holidays.

Cheers for all the comments guys, keep them coming, they are all being read and taken on board. And if I can say anything (in my amateur opinion) about the different opinion's on technique, that is, I think you are all correct in your own ways of doing things. Its really good to see how different people approach the same thing. Some look at the pure technique whilst's other's concentrate on the subtlety's that make all the difference in the long run.

Please do keep them coming.

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Elston, It's been an odd night and It's my bedtime so I'll wrap this up a little. I'm a firm believer in lessons and practice, I also have an strong faith in personal research and experimentation. Combine those and we have a powerful learning experience. The human mind is absolutely an amazing thing. We can spend a week getting our first basics on snow and 12 months later, within a few minutes it's all back and we're off to the next level. It's astonishing, wonderful and more addictive than crack cocaine!

The last two pages developed from a question on having confidence stalled on an intermediate plateau. It's one we all experience and one that I personally think that the teaching system carries some responsibility for . . . that saying, it's clear from other voices here that this is changing and I'm a little late to the party . . . There is what's called a 'truth' in that 'fear of the unknown is the only limit to our achievements'. No idea of its attribution but I rather like that one; So while it's great to take lessons it's greater to take the lesson with you when you leave and use it for self-development. Skiing is not just a physical sport, we are surrounded by stimuli, that's what makes our sport so attractive. I'm not sure that the existing teaching system sees that bigger picture or utilises it to our benefit. That's not harmful, just unfulfilling.

As we prepare for the morrow and a new round of effite 'bitch-slapping' (sorry Fleur, I'm down to my old standards) about the 'qualifications' to make a comment in BenZlostNutsack, I'd like to encourage snowHeads to both take lessons and to challenge themselves.

What's this got to do with carving turns? Just that [zen] you are not a passenger, you are the machine [/zen]

Game on slikedges, how many asymmetric movement patterns can you identify in the skier demonstrating short and medium turns in the BASS vid that Rob posted . . . Hint: it's more than two rolling eyes

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Look at what the racer's skis are doing. Is there a significant difference on one side compared to the other? Is his turn shape more effective and one side than the other? Is his line different? Other than the fact that he is sling cleanly and was late on one gate I don't think there is enough info in that clip to draw any conclusions about his skiing, never mind speculate about whether he plays football or not. I think there is a danger if reaching conclusions based on things which are nothing more than noise and ephemera.

You know it makes sense.

OK, I'll bite. The BASS skier prefers turning towards his left, than turning towards his right (I would venture he is right handed as I am the same - I have a stronger right leg and so turn better left). He has a very slight bias with his head which is marginally (and it IS marginally) inclined to his left and never moves on either turn (you can see it better in some sequences than others), and he has a slightly different arm action often lifting the right arm slightly higher than the left. However, if I was half as balanced as he is overall I would be thunderously happy. I think he is demonstrating really good technique and something to aspire to. However, they are not pure carved turns are they? He leaves a slight rooster tail - I would venture this is because he is forcing the skis to turn tighter than their designed perfect turn radius - how am I doing? It is an example that not all skiing needs to be carved turns, despite the fact that we all own so called carving skis, and perhaps aspire to carve, that you to be able to do turns of all shapes and sizes.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Megamum, he's not trying to carve his turns. He's coaching me this week so I'll put your other points to him and see if he agrees wink

A snowHead

Megamum, not difficult is it, I would like to point out as others have said, these guys are probably better than most of us at what they do, and none of the comments made are a "knock", but no harm in analysing movements they make and trying to work out if they are causing an issue or just a personal cosmetic movement.

A snowHead

rob@rar, Don't you dare!!

I was trying to find the damn nit-picking things that our aspiring instructor thinks he's spotted. However, in the great scheme of things, even if they exist - and its so subtle, even on that snow as to be practically non-existent, it is an example that they don't matter in the great scheme of things - he looks a brilliant skier and they are something you'd never spot without being able to re-run video footage half a dozen times and compare frozen frames - if it takes that much spotting then who hell is ever going to notice in their day to day skiing? It's certainly nothing that will ever bother me. I'm not certain that they would even hundreths of a second off of a race run.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I think there's a bit of arguing at cross-purposes here. rob@rar seems to be saying he's a great skier doing great skiing for that situation, Masque seems to be saying it's not skiing you'd want to use as a template - both might be true.

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Megamum, I'm not sure what to call those turns. He is blending rotation, edging and pressure to create short radius turns where he is gripping at or just above the falline. Obviously he is in perfect control of speed and line, his turns are symmetrical and he is sling a consistent corridor width. His movements are fluid and are enabling him to achieve that result.

As for Masque's nit-picking, not only do I think he's way off the mark with his observations, I also think its completely the wrong way to go about things. Do we really want skiers to conform to a rigid model of how they should look, regardless if how effectively they ski? He is pretty keen to label us skiers as rigid and uptight, yet in his motion analysis picks up on the mist ludicrous of points. Inconsistent, at best, or perhaps hypocritical?

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finestgreen, I suppose it depends on what you mean by template. I posted that clip to illustrate particular points, and in general I think there is a lot we can learn about the fundamentals if skiing by analysing what racers do. But when teaching we need to interpret what we see so that it is relevant to how recreational skiers ski.

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When I did a course with an instructor working under Phil Smith's direction he only videod our legs and all the focus was on what our skis were doing. At one point when he was sure he was well out of view he did some pole planting because we were all so useless at it and had asked for some guidance but he made us promise not to tell! At the feedback sessions we nearly all had black salopettes but he knew exactly who was who. When I skied close behind him he knew what I was doing wrong from the sound my skis were making; uncanny.

The emphasis on looking at nothing above the legs was a bit extreme, I reckon, but a good antidote to some of the old very rigid stuff with more attention paid to your shoulders than to the legs. Skiing with uptight beginner friends I do tell them to try to keep their uphill hand forward, and in their view, rather than down by their side, and it seems to help get their weight a little more onto the downhill ski.

After all it is free

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Hmmmmm I did stick a boot to the hornet's nest Shocked

slikedges, To take a single movement sequence in isolation and use it as a comparison with multiple sequences is not just facile it is stupid and dangerous. To continue along that route is not one you want to walk unless you really want to show that you have nothing to contribute to the discussion. Call me an idiot by all means but to openly demonstrate that you can't differentiate between peanut butter and dog ѕhіt is not one to crow about. . . but then again . . . keep up the good work.

rob@rar, Off the mark eh? You posted and asked for an opinion so don't complain about what you receive! Let's look at your BASS instructor first. He's skiing sweetly as far as I know, performing for the camera in demonstration mode as it were.
Objectively; I'd have to ask if he's had a heavyweight accident above the waist? He drops his left shoulder and holds his left arm short. pole plants significantly later than his right and with obvious less pressure and rolls his hand as his arm drops. His torso collapses slightly more to the left on right turns. Because of these, the timing sequence and smear pattern of the left and right turns is different. He does this consistently and repeatedly, does it affect his skiing? Absolutely NOT! Remember though, he's skiing for the camera, how does he ski when he's relaxed and not performing? He's an instructor so he's probably well aware of this but what happens when you have a client that has a clear movement bias, how do you change that or how do YOU 'adapt' to that in a class? We all have a range of body issues in a sport that requires synchronous movement to the left and right and here we have a skilled proponent overcoming his bias but he's not skiing at the edge of his technique and strength on a pre-determined and fixed route.

So back to the young lad. I said right at the start that I can't comment on his skiing technique but I would say that it can be improved. You're (all) waxing lyrical about how good a skier he is . . . bullѕhіt . . . there are dozens at the top of the hill just as good or better. The kid is racing and as Rob himself says 'the clock' is all that's important and technique can go screw itself if it means stopping that clock before any other skier. I can see a clear and patently bloody obvious left and right body movement bias and the one thing that our sport requires is 'balance' and when performing at the extreme level of racing it is the small things outside ski technique that determine the winner. If this lad were more balanced in his agility he would be a better skier. Is that nit-picking? at the bloody edge of any sport it's the "nit-picking" that makes the difference between winning and losing That's an absolute for all of us. I've only seen him in half a dozen or so gates and that is a limitation to my observations.

I keep saying this, throwing up pictures and vids of racing is the most pointless and contrary thing you can do in illustrating ski technique to us great unwashed.

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Masque, not complaining, just enjoying the discussion. And on this occasion disagreeing with a lot of what you say.

slikedges, JEEZ! the kid's on long radius GS skis! smack my head in contrition and I'll go find my white cane and burn it as a sacrifice to the snow gods . . . "out of context" my arѕe you can't even look at a picture and say what's in it rolling eyes

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

rob@rar,

To be fastidiously fussy (you know me so well) it does have an effect on his skiing but he compensates for it and most people like me in a class environment would hardly notice it if at all as he will have spoken and statically demonstrated the movement to us. You illustrate my point in that you have to be able to see and identify issues with a skiers movement patterns and you add that you need the additional skill to identify those which are or are not relevant . . . that's not what you asked me. In the racer's case all are relevant because he is racing and not skiing . . . the analogy is you with your car and Louis Hamilton and whatever he's strapped into now. the only commonality is 5 wheels.

Using the racer as an example to Pam is wrong because he is not demonstrating anything of relevance to her. He may have an extended downhill leg on one turn and not the next. He is adapting and surviving a hostile environment and his own limitations with all the skills in his arsenal. You are trying to give Pam that arsenal.
You yourself said there is a point in skiing where form trades off to function. I agree absolutely but we should not be using extremes of function to illustrate form, it's counter productive particularly for people who are struggling to understand that form. It's like taking a child that's just managed decimal mathematics and showing them a differential equation.

I will always argue that racing is absolutely wrong to be used as an example to anyone below the skill level where they can safely enter into race training exercises themselves.

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

slikedges, You seem to think I am talking about technique . . . read my posts I say nothing about the skiers technique. You are way off on a tangent. How a body moves, how the parts interact with each other and limitations to that all have an effect on a skier. In this case I've identified some of these. How they affect his skiing is not in my pervue, that they almost certainly do is. You don't get any of this do you?

I have repeated said that it is a short clip but however short it is there is more information, even if flawed, than from a still image or shorter clip . . . why is this obscure to you? Do you look at a picture of an aircraft on a runway and say it's parked there? No it could be in any of a number of states and 4 seconds of video will tell you what that state probably is.

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stewart woodward, thanks. snowHead

I did once while away a long session at the dentist (root canal filling) my mentally doing snowboard turns, using McNab's ABCD system. It made a huge difference.

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stewart woodward, You illustrate my point snowHead

Use imagery of what is relevant to the situation. High end athletes use high end imagery. We punters need to see what we aspire to emulate.

pam w get well soon sunshine. Yes I know one of Rob's great skills is his ability to be 'on point' . . . one I have to learn wink

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Masque, well, you can't say I've tried. I will re-state my advice to you, offered in the spirit of friendship: if you contribute to a BASI course in the same manner as you have contributed to this thread you will make life much more difficult for yourself. If you are just talking about what arbitrary movements you can spot rather than effective skiing there's little point in continuing with this thread as it will just end up in the same hateful place as the inner tip lead nonsense of a few years ago.

pam w, thanks for the compliment, much appreciated. Hope your recovery is quick and full Happy

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rob@rar, I do understand that and I thank you profusely for it. You're right I don't think we ever will agree on the right or wrong imagery to use as examples. snowHead

If I wander down a training route I will have to bite my tongue . . . frequently . . . here I feel free(r) to expand on points. It's a throwback from sports coaching and judging at a reasonably high level, when finessing a movement was essential to the marks grading.

By now you really should know better than to ask me for an opinion wink

After all it is free

Masque, go back to page 2... read my second post and then try to do the same.... it just isn't worth the hassle mate!

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finestgreen, I might while away part of today looking through stewart's link and those, and thinking about it! Meanwhile, with my friends gone off skiing in the uninviting murk, I am first going to sort out how to get in and out of the bath to have a shower - a small kinaesthetic challenge driven by empiricism (get it wrong and it f*cking hurts. Laughing

)

Help!!

How do I carve my turns?

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