 Poster: A snowHead
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adamj11, Roughly, what are your set-up costs? I love the idea...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Priced out the tools, compressor and steel as roughly £600, still looking on sourcing a firehose though.
Haven't looked at timber, base, composites or the like though and this si only rough so far
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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adamj11, I'm in St Neots so only about 35 mins from you. As posted earlier in the thread, I've got an industrial unit and compressor already available if that helps.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gentlemen, I'm feeling a quorum coming on. There def. appears to be more than enough interest to set up a press and related activities. Simply combining our purchasing ability for raw stock alone (nod to feef) seems to be reason enough to get together and discuss this further. adamj11, feef, do you and your associated partners in grime want to meet up somewhere to discuss the various possibilites (thinking beer/alcohol purveying establishment)?
Anyone else with an interest (either shown above or lurking) post your name up so that we can assess total numbers.
We are all snowheaded enough to pretty much wipe out the calender until late April. Can I suggest 01 June 2013 (which by happy coincidence is a Sat.) as a possible meeting date? That should enable everyone to get all relevant mallards in an orderly queue and not conflict with on-snow time. If any one wants to get a bigger run up at this then suggest a sooner date but I suspect if we all start doing some more targeted research from now until 01/06/13 that should be sufficient.
Thoughts?
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bulking up the housing to allow a greater pressure and incorporating a heat source.
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I think there is a practical upper limit on these two factors i.e. you can actually have too much of a good thing. If you either over pressurise or over heat then you can damage the elements making up the form of the ski. We need to look at the adhesive recommended uses/charactieristics/cure times and conditions and the pliability of the material we are potentially using. Also if you apply too much pressure you can squeeze out too much of the adhesive in the process. Overheat it and you can 'cook' the adhesive. Neither is desirable.
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p.s. I am not relocating to Salt Lake cit. Denver .... maybe.
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Dot.,
Thanks for that - those suckers provide almost every machine needed to start ski production for $18,500 (£11.5k). I'm not suggesting that we head down that route (not least because the shipping from the US would cost a fortune) but it's mind blowing that you could get up and running for that amount in virtually no time at all.
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RattytheSnowRat, I'd be up for that.. If it involves skiing, beer, tech and the entrepreneurial spirit then count me in.
As I said MUCH earlier in the thread, it's something I'm very much interested in doing, but I'm also very aware that I've already got a LOT of projects on the go. If I can help by providing a site, some equipment and a central purchasing point then I'm happy. I can also provide a decent quality TIG welder, if anyone wants to have a bash at fabricating a press. (And the unit next door is a CNC and fabrication shop which could be handy)
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feef, ironically, I'm a very rusty wlder so I'll leave it to someone better than I to attempt that (good idea tho'). The CNC and fabrication shop sounds made to order, lucky ol' you to have one so close. I need about twenty parts fabricating for a variety of motorbikes so I may impose on them if when we meet up (asuming it's near there).
I hear you on the project overload - I'm in the same position or worse since a lot of the timings with my stuff revolve around other people who appear to be generally useless. I think I can get rid of most of them and prevent myself from acquiring new ones betwen now and June '13. I think it's got to be one of those projects where people contribute as much or as little as they can/wish to and we suck it and see for a fixed period.
I wonder what happened to CoreUPT's ski making kit .....?
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| feef, ironically, I'm a very rusty wlder so I'll leave it to someone better than I to attempt that (good idea tho'). The CNC and fabrication shop sounds made to order, lucky ol' you to have one so close. I need about twenty parts fabricating for a variety of motorbikes so I may impose on them if when we meet up (asuming it's near there). |
Warning... thread drift 
I have a lathe and milling machine in my workshop at home (although I may move them up to the unit at some point) so I've not used next door's services (yet) but I do know they make parts for our mutual landlord's vintage Bentley and one of the guys often makes parts for his Norton so they'll probably be quite understanding if you do need anything. (fwiw, most of my machining work is for my motorcycles too)
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A guy I know from Uni made a pair of skis with a friend (who also made a pair). Posted photos on facebook of the whole process and the eventual riding of them. Looked really good. They used a press.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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With regards to the too much of a good thing, the 50kPa pressure that they design their demo rig for on the site isn't enough to press a properly responsive ski, looking on forums I've seen that a thermostatic heat mat can be incorporated allowing the temperature to be well regulated.
With regards to meeting up and stuff, will have a word with the guys I've been talking too, I've genuinely spent all day wondering if I can make a living out of it, it's becoming an obsession.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| adamj11 wrote: |
With regards to the too much of a good thing, the 50kPa pressure that they design their demo rig for on the site isn't enough to press a properly responsive ski, looking on forums I've seen that a thermostatic heat mat can be incorporated allowing the temperature to be well regulated.
With regards to meeting up and stuff, will have a word with the guys I've been talking too, I've genuinely spent all day wondering if I can make a living out of it, it's becoming an obsession. |
50kPa ?
50 Kilo Pascals?
That's only 7Psi.... I'm surprised it's able to squash anything.
fwiw, the compressor at the unit can do up to 100psi I think. If not, the one I've got at home certainly can and I could just swap them round.
As for making a living out of it.. I think unlikely in the short term.. Lifestyle career perhaps.. but you'd need to get a big break, sign an upcoming star to use your kit and get the name out there. Made in Britain isn't so well regarded in terms of ski equipment (no offense to WhiteDot, but I'd hope they understand what I mean)
Something to think about... and maybe I'm starting to discuss what should be talked about when we get together...
I buy the stuff to make the press and whatnot (maybe need a hand in the design and assembly), and also buys the materials needed (if we can work out in advance quantities and whatnot) then I should be able to take advantage of better prices for (relative) bulk purchases.
We can then work out what would technically be a 'rental' of the equipment and space but is really just a way to cover the costs without you taking a large, up-front capital hit.
This means you have everything you need, but at a fraction of the cost.. It would only be viable from my point of view, if there's enough interest in forming this 'co-op' of ski designers and builders that the 'rental' would eventually cover the capital costs of the equipment. I'm not too fussed about charging for 'usage' I just don't want to end up out of pocket, which I think you'll agree, noone wants to be.
It also means that, if you try it and fail miserably, or it doesn't work out.. you can walk away and not be out of pocket yourself for more than you've used, nor be left with some hefty kit you can't use.
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Sorrt 50PSI is what I meant, was being thick.
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You know it makes sense.
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for anyone interested there is a brilliant ski press model in the google sketchup model library. You could create an accurate price for construction off this;
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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that's pretty much what I've been looking at myself, although I've got a few mods in mind that would make it much easier to open and close.
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Poster: A snowHead
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what were you thinking? Any moving parts on the structure would be coming under a lot of pressure from the bladders 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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A mechanism to help lift and lower the upper half of the press, and using tie-rods which slot into the cross-bars rather than bolting through which would make assembly much faster but not weaken the structure at all.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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That looks a bit more detailed and heavy duty than what I was looking at.
This is effectively just a bulked up version of the one they show how to make on their site
Using 4mm thick steel sections rather than the 2mm they use.
This was pretty much just because I don't think I have the expertise to make something like that and the fact that I could just adapt their design.
Although that design doesn't look to complicated to follow and of course the track is optional.
I think given that the top mould doesn't need to be custom built to each ski it could be an idea to have it permanently fixed to the frame though and I'm still struggling to find any UK supplier for a firehose that isn't about 20 times to long and costing over 200 quid.[/img]
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Have you thought about approaching your local fire station - they change hoses out regularly and may have an old one you can have a section of for a crate of beer or a sizable curry or a donation to the benevolent fund...
Someone on SH must have contacts in the brigade...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| adamj11 wrote: |
| I think given that the top mould doesn't need to be custom built to each ski it could be an idea to have it permanently fixed to the frame though and I'm still struggling to find any UK supplier for a firehose that isn't about 20 times to long and costing over 200 quid.[/img] |
See that's the sort of thing where I'd say, as a collective, let's buy the £200 worth of hose and it means we have spare. It also means we know what the safe operating and burst pressures are for it. Getting some used hose is likely to be weakened especially if it's been getting dragged around the ground by fire-fighters.
Spare either to replace what we use as it wears out or gets damaged, or spare to build a second press if needs be.
This is an example of my capital outlay 'absorbtion' of my earlier suggestion.
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Oh and Feef, I'd be up for going in on this with a few others as well, with my comment about making a living out of it not entirely serious, but would you be agreeable to us making our own skis and maybe making some for others as well at a reasonable price so we can make some money back on the outlay?
Has anyone had any thoughts about graphics? The fabric technique seems to come out okay and I was thinking of asking a few textile printers how much it worrked out at for printing.
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Also, are you all considering additional equipment like base grinders and whatnot?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Will definitely speak to my mates about it to see if they're up for going in as well, but even if they aren't they probably wouldn't care if I went in with you guys and they just helped out a little and paid more for their skis.
So who all is up for it?
I'm Structural Enginering grad so ok with the technical side of things but I've been a ski bum since I left uni and while I'm okay to do manual labour (I'm building a chalet at the minute in just that role) I'm not to precise on the specialist side of the stuff.
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I studied mech eng at uni but dropped out to work in IT.
Now engineering is my hobby, but mainly centers around motorcycles and other petrol-headery. I recently supercharged my MX5 and fabricated bits and pieces for myself and friends like camera mounts, number plate brackets for my friend's Defender and other odds and sods. If it can be turned, milled or cut I can probably do it (I've not welded much recently, so not sure I'd trust my welds in an application such as this where structural integrity is VERY important)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I looked at tomb's suggestion for a press earlier - I know which site it's from. The picutres are pretty but it designed to be taken apart and dismantled to do two pairs of skis at one time. I think a more accessible model would be better for us intially.
As for hose, I am sure we can source the necessary amount from various local firestations. We want relatively short amount and we are going to cut it up any way. We can 'test to destruct' on a piece on the compressor and determine whether it is up to the job. (I still think that multiple hand screws might be the way to go initially but I'll bow to the majority view).
You know what else occurred to me, a sodding great lump of metal or concrete that is winched up and down might actually be all we need. You get the from of whatever ski shape you want, lay it up with the opposing base form on an even metal base then just winch down a hopper full of scrap iron on removable guide posts in each corner. Provided it is sufficently heavy it will apply a ton + of pressure easily and is simple to adjust. Given the mass it will also be better at retaining heat and it will be accessible from all sides when 'up' which should be useful. Minimal moving parts, very simple to use and very little cost. The only down side is that you need to ensure that the floor can take the weight but every industrial slab is designed to take tons more than that and that you have a sufficiently strong winch point. Let Mother Nature do the work for zero cost and no possibility of a blow out half way through.
Graphics - I think doing some basic marquetry for the first run might be nice (lettering, etc). You get a very thin top sheet made of wood and cut out letters/shapes then you can either inlay or just let your reinforcement layer show through - (nice it's carbon fibre). Otherwise it's pretty easy to go to a printer's with a large format printer and get a single run with a polymer based sheet. You can do virtually what you want that way and it's not that expensive. I've got an old style large format HP printer that's just been serviced, I'll see if I can do the right inks/'paper' and get back to you. Otherwise you can just go 'freestyle' (I draw your attention to my three yo sharpie based production line sweatshop idea above - they work for sweeties.)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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The problem with a solid weight is regulating the pressure all along the ski, it's simple with the compressor and hose to get it exact and at the right level for the epoxy we use.
With the graphics, I don't think a wood top sheet is the way to go at all, if we do the same techniques for the structure as on skibuilders (base, composite, core, composite, top sheet) we can just use either a coloured fabric and hand cut paper or plastic and fit it under a clear base and top sheet or print off the exact graphics required on fabric.
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May I also just say that it is an honour, nay a privilege, to be starting on this venture with two such esteemed and highly qualifed gentlemen such as Mrfeef and Mradamj11. All I bring to the party is a certain artistic flair, muscle, an above average mainly self taught ability with tools, a sideways approach to intractable problems, certified lunacy and, when suitably inspired, a work ethic second to none. If all other participants are half as equpiped as you two then we are destined for great things, my friends great things.
adamj11, if you want to go down the fabric route I have a friend who commissions prints for a living and also acts an agent for a great number of print and design people. Give me your existing prices and I'll see if I can get better. BTW, are we sure that fabric will work in terms of adhesion to the top sheet and the reinforcing sheet??
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You know it makes sense.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
May I also just say that it is an honour, nay a privilege, to be starting on this venture with two such esteemed and highly qualifed gentlemen such as Mrfeef and Mradamj11. All I bring to the party is a certain artistic flair, muscle, an above average mainly self taught ability with tools, a sideways approach to intractable problems, certified lunacy and, when suitably inspired, a work ethic second to none. If all other participants are half as equpiped as you two then we are destined for great things, my friends great things.
adamj11, if you want to go down the fabric route I have a friend who commissions prints for a living and also acts an agent for a great number of print and design people. Give me your existing prices and I'll see if I can get better. BTW, are we sure that fabric will work in terms of adhesion to the top sheet and the reinforcing sheet?? |
heh... you make it sound like I'm an expert! I just like metalworking and engines.
Don't do yourself down tho.. while what I make tends to work and be solidly built, I'm TERRIBLE at anything relating to design or finish so someone with an artistic flair is MORE than welcome
As for fabric, I don't see why it wouldn't work. It'd be thin enough and porous enough that the resin would impregnante it fully and bond through it between the top sheet and structure. Bear in mind, at that level, it's no longer structural, only cosmetic (although noone likes to see delaminating cosmetic layers no matter how good the underlying structural integrity)
Interestingly, on-demand fabric printing is one area of business that I've been contemplating anyway, so again, if that's a practical route for this venture, then I'd be keen to investigate that further too. The idea would be give me a jpeg (or other format image) and I print you the fabric, as much or as little of it as you want.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
May I also just say that it is an honour, nay a privilege, to be starting on this venture with two such esteemed and highly qualifed gentlemen such as Mrfeef and Mradamj11. All I bring to the party is a certain artistic flair, muscle, an above average mainly self taught ability with tools, a sideways approach to intractable problems, certified lunacy and, when suitably inspired, a work ethic second to none. If all other participants are half as equpiped as you two then we are destined for great things, my friends great things.
adamj11, if you want to go down the fabric route I have a friend who commissions prints for a living and also acts an agent for a great number of print and design people. Give me your existing prices and I'll see if I can get better. BTW, are we sure that fabric will work in terms of adhesion to the top sheet and the reinforcing sheet?? |
I'm qualified in name only, I've been sanding down logs and hammering up insulation for the past 2 months.
Wrt the fabric, the guys at skibuilders seem to use it for most of their graphics on their skis, it looks quite well, apparently all we need is a cotton fabric as it binds better to the epoxy, here's some photos of their fabric graphic ones.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| adamj11 wrote: |
| Wrt the fabric, the guys at skibuilders seem to use it for most of their graphics on their skis, it looks quite well, apparently all we need is a cotton fabric as it binds better to the epoxy, here's some photos of their fabric graphic ones. |
heh... any idea what my other business is? haberdashery, sewing and crafting supplies. Fabric and related gubbins is something I can get ahold of VERY easily.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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feef,
Sorry, didn't explain myself properly - the issue I was concerned about is what you actually describe - the penetration. It's not the adhesion per se I was concerned about but effect of the adhesive pentrating through the fabric. I may be wrong because of the heat/presssure but I thought that the fabric weave may create an uneven spread of the adhesive (which I assume would not be totally optically clear itself). It was more a visual finish query rather than a structural one. I appreciate that I might be 100% wrong on this point but that's what great about this project, we can trial this sort of thing if we want and get to know the limitations (or learn from the mistakes of others, whatever).
I'm happy to focus on the core porfiliers, edgers, planers/sizers, linishers etc, - that's more my thing. For base grinding, wise heads seem to think it best that this is done by the modern machines costing tens of thousands that lurk in pro-stores. If it is decided that we should keep it in-house then I suggest a joint session with Jon as I believe he teaches the mysteries of base flattening and tuning by hand along with the special secret tuning skills that only may be passed down hand to hand, so to speak. i.e. we go super-pro race finish and do it manually with a chunky file or two. Happy to go the Jon route for a number of reasons, quality being paramount.
I think much of the large scale fabric printing is off shore nowadays becasue of the cost and related production issues. I know there are still some short run producers for custom prints on shore but they are not cheap  Die cut, screen printing, and sublimation seem to be the other options for graphics. I wouldn't mind trying to reverse screen print on to the topsheet base. The sublimation bit I can do at A3 level already, I think. Again it's something I need to check if I can adapt. As long as the size required is A3 or smaller this should be quite easy, tho'. Bigger than that and it's off to the local large format printer!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Take it back on the fabric. Looks good (one of them's a Kam design, isn't it?)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Tell you another thing I would like to try - depth effects. Double the top sheet then do cut aways, inserts and sublimation in/on the lower (clear) top sheet and sublimation on the reverse of the top top sheet then cut-aways in the top reinforcing layer and inlays in the core. Do it right and you could come up with a 3D effect in each ski. Speaking of which - has anyone done a 3D effect ski (as in 3D glasss effect)? How about two-tone ('Mod' skis?)? I wouldn't mind doing a Madness tribute ski - no particular reason, working in black and white would make it easier tho' plus I like the name: the 'They call it Madness' ski.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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On the core profiling, the way that they do it (again on skibuilders) to make a rail mount for the router, doesn't seem masively complicated, obviously the industrial planer would make things easy but lets be practical we should be able to knock up one of rail jigs if we have a level and some mdf.
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I think an issue with using two sheets would be the weight of the ski, especially if you decide to go for P-Tex side walls.
Sublimation of course could be a good option, especially if we do have a suitable printer and can fashion a heat press to do a whole length of base or topsheet.
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| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
| I'm happy to focus on the core porfiliers, edgers, planers/sizers, linishers etc, - that's more my thing. For base grinding, wise heads seem to think it best that this is done by the modern machines costing tens of thousands that lurk in pro-stores. If it is decided that we should keep it in-house then I suggest a joint session with Jon as I believe he teaches the mysteries of base flattening and tuning by hand along with the special secret tuning skills that only may be passed down hand to hand, so to speak. i.e. we go super-pro race finish and do it manually with a chunky file or two. Happy to go the Jon route for a number of reasons, quality being paramount. |
No offence to Jon, he's hot-poop when it comes to that sort of stuff, but I was a ski-tech in a past life myself, and had exactly the sort of word-of-mouth, hand-down training that you talk about.
Also, a second hand stone-grinder isn't out of the question. I know Wintersteiger do a line in used equipment. I will investigate.
| RattytheSnowRat wrote: |
I think much of the large scale fabric printing is off shore nowadays becasue of the cost and related production issues. I know there are still some short run producers for custom prints on shore but they are not cheap Die cut, screen printing, and sublimation seem to be the other options for graphics. I wouldn't mind trying to reverse screen print on to the topsheet base. The sublimation bit I can do at A3 level already, I think. Again it's something I need to check if I can adapt. As long as the size required is A3 or smaller this should be quite easy, tho'. Bigger than that and it's off to the local large format printer! |
The kit I've been contemplating is, effectively, a large printer for fabric, it's manufactured by a company in Spain. You basically plug your PC in, edit the image in the software, and hit 'print'. I've been looking at that for different markets, but if it could be used in this project, then it helps it become a viable proposition overall.
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While I am on a roll - if we are going down the SkiBuilders route, they build in positoned 'blanks' for mounting bindings in each ski. I assume that means they must choose the binding before building the ski AND have the correct template to lay out the positon of the mounting points. Unless we are just going to plunk down a chunky general mounting block to be drilled 'as and when' after construction, we need to sort out which bindings we will be using upfront. Aslo different bindings work better with different ski types so it makes sense to focus on this as one of the elements to be agreed once we work out what ski we are going to build. In either case, the decison we make effects the manufacture of wood cores. It may also effect some of the graphics given that the hole postioning may be an issue with some designs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Does it matter what fabrics you can put in the printer?
The inserts are optional ratty, they offer better security for the bindings, we can put them in if we know what bindings we want and the layups are available online for Marker and Salomon bindings at any rate.
I think the first thing to do would be everyone decide what they want from their ski, profile, core, graphics, and then we do a test run on a basic cambered ski, not bothering with any fancy graphics or inserts, just a plain colour to show that we can do the technique we choose. After that we build one set at a time, making a new mould shouldn't be took taxing for each ski or for profiling each ski, of course we might end up wanting a similar profile and mould to each other making it easy for ourselves, but even if we don't we should probably store each profile rig and mould in the case we do want to make a similar ski in the future.
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I think an issue with using two sheets would be the weight of the ski, especially if you decide to go for P-Tex side walls.
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I was think of slightly thinner top sheets than normal and a slightly lower profile for the wood core. I am also thinking of insetting the lower of the two sheets into side walls so you would not see it from the side. Given these changes I'll take the very small increase in weight for the mind blowing effects and the greater rigidity that comes from the additional top sheet (these planks ain't going to be park skis).
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No offence to Jon, he's hot-poop when it comes to that sort of stuff, but I was a ski-tech in a past life myself, and had exactly the sort of word-of-mouth, hand-down training that you talk about.
Also, a second hand stone-grinder isn't out of the question. I know Wintersteiger do a line in used equipment. I will investigate.
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I bow to superior knowledge. I can always learn to hand finish if I want to so it's not an issue. I had heard that the machines were not always kind to skis so s'up to you but I think the Kam's did the maths and they send their's out to be finished. I'm all for a one-stop shop but I'm councious that we don't have to do it all at once and if we can defray some capital costs intially, I'd like to look at it.
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FAQ
