 Poster: A snowHead
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Just a quick question to see if there is a ready remedy. When carving (edging hard at speed) on steep very firm pitches I sometimes get a bit of judder in the outside ski. This suggests to me I'm perhaps overpowering it. I usually just back off a bit or slide out the skis a bit to release pressure. This may of course also be a feature of my weight and the skis, usually being a modern mid-fat  - most recent incident was with an Icelantic Shaman.
(I suspect the easiest remedy is try a skki built for the job but where's the fun in that?)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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You're not using enough edge angle for the turn that you are trying to carve and as a consequence over-powering the grip the ski can achieve by using too much pressure. Either increase the edge angle or, as you are doing, back off the pressure and open up the turn shape a little. Don't think it has much to do with the type of ski you are using - I get the same judder on a pair of GS skis if I don't edge them enough.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Cheers Rob. Sounds about right as I only really get it when I'm really putting it down on that ski without concentrating on higher edge angle.
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fatbob, become just Bob 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Following wot Rob says, more angulation?
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As I haven't seen you ski, it's hard to diagnose, but just thinking about Rob's explanation it doesn't seem to make sense to me. If your skis are juddering, you're probably not carving (the tail of the ski following the same track as the tip), especially if it's a particularly firm/steep slope. If you had too little edge angle and were steering, your skis would simply be sliding, if you were carving with a low edge angle, you would be going extremely fast, and not across the hill very much. The explanation of 'too much pressure', how can you exert too much pressure on a ski? I would argue that you can't, you can however mistime and mismanage the pressure that is created, which is probably part of what's happening here.
If I were to guess I would say that you are possibly creating your edge angle by pushing your tails out, resulting in an abruptly high edge angle, as the tail is displaced from the track of the tip it struggles to find grip, and as this probably combined with a straight outside leg, and a lot of pressure late in the turn, you struggle to control the forces created. But really, that's just what I feel when I get edge chatter, who knows what you're up to.
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jimmer, the judder/chatter sounds like it is the result of the ski gripping then breaking through the grip because the pressure was too much, then gripping then breaking through the grip, repeatedly. I've rarely experienced it when skiing outside gates, and saw a few junior racers in Italy this week experiencing it. It's very distinctive, and definitely caused by too much pressure and not enough edge angle.
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Just to say, I've very occasionally noticed this. Mostly on rock hard corduroy. I realised I was slightly rushing my turns and being too aggressive with the edge changes. Once I focused on smoother edge transitions and nice wide arcs, the problem disappeared. I think this did have to do with edge angulation too, as I was 'gripping' too early in the turn due to rushing the change? What Rob has said makes sense to me!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I had some nice chatter from my skis today, quite steep and a little hard packed slope, I think I was too aggressive at the start of the turn (rushing it) and not smooth enough. Another discussion from a couple of years back
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=35754
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fatbob, how wide are the skis.... and what boot bindings you on ... i chatter big time on rando boots / dukes combo it felt like the rubber just moved around under foot when trying to find some edge.
even with a solid binding wide skis will chatter unless you manage the edge and pressure very well when on hard pack.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just to be clear, are we talking about what a lot of people might call 'chatter'? Because if we are, this 'too low an edge angle' business still makes no sense.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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jimmer, it was described in the OP as
| Quote: |
| When carving (edging hard at speed) on steep very firm pitches I sometimes get a bit of judder in the outside ski. |
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I get this as well sometimes and I think rob@rar was bang on with his diagnosis. You need some confidence & skill to hold the edge angles high enough in a high speed turn so they lock into a tight carve - more confidence & skill on wider skis. If you can't quite get there, but still try, the edge tries to "lock", releases, tries to lock etc - judder. So I guess most recreational skiers would be best advised to release some edge angle to allow a smooth slarve, or of course open up the turn shape.
Or you could MTFU, go for the high edge angle and then spend 15 minutes gathering up your personal effects from a 300 square metre area*.
(* I've tried this more than once).
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You know it makes sense.
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| horizon wrote: |
| If you can't quite get there, but still try, the edge tries to "lock", releases, tries to lock etc - judder. So I guess most recreational skiers would be best advised to release some edge angle to allow a smooth slarve, or of course open up the turn shape. |
If you can't quite get a high enough edge angle one instinctive response is to try and "force the turn" by stiffening your leg - this means you are no longer able to manage the increase in pressure as it builds through the apex and bottom of the turn and it is this that causes the judder by grip, break-the-grip, grip, break-the-grip, etc. Easiest way to stop the judder is to soften your leg and open up the turn radius slightly, unless you're skiing gates (which is the only time I've experienced it) in which case you don't have the option to open up the turn so you have to increase your edge angle (although that's easier said than done, for the reason you describe  )
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Having thought about it a bit more I'm convinced Rob is right. Because it only happens on isolsated runs/turns I think it may also be a feature of being late in the turn I,e on the heel of the outside foot.
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Poster: A snowHead
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rob@rar, I remember asking about this on here years ago and I think it was yourself who posted up a very good illustration of upper body lean angle when in the turn. Natural thing to do is to lean the upper body into the turn, where-as what you want to do is keep your spine angle as vertical as possible. This helps get the correct pressure and allows the legs to extend into the turn to a greater extent without reaching the end of reach, which is what leads to the judder?
Hope that makes sense as I can't remember the technical terms etc.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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shoogly, you are right and that coudl be a problem as well.. in order to achieve bigger angles on the steep section fatbob, MAY be leaning into the hill and putting too much weight on the inside ski causing the outside ski to break away. This is called banking, to counteract this he could drop the hip into the hill and get his weight more over the edged ski.
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skimottaret, it's the one thing that moved my skiing on a couple of years ago.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar, Is that a rearward facing Go-Pro? Are you chasing the elusive GSA?
To clarify, I don't think it's about the outer ski breaking away - to me it feels like more weight on the ski than the edge angle can handle. As I said I think it might be a feature when I'm loading the ski late and slightly back i.e. from memory if I load the tips early in the turn I don't get the same judder. Also it only really happens occasionally on groomers which are at about the limit of winch cat grooming in the latter half of turns.
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One thing that's clear from this thread is that if you get one thing wrong in skiing, it has a big impact on the rest of your technique.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| fatbob wrote: |
| rob@rar, Is that a rearward facing Go-Pro? Are you chasing the elusive GSA? |
It was a rear-facing Contour HD. Not sure what a GSA is, but I was chasing skimottaret at the time.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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fatbob, Ah, I understand now. Yup, he looks a total douchbag with those phat skis. (Is that the right terminology, dude?)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Are the skis too short?
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| Cynic wrote: |
| Are the skis too short? |
Maybe but any ski I've experienced it on has been the longest made in a particular model. Time to bring back proper manly 2m skis.
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You know it makes sense.
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fatbob,
I'm all for that! You don't get any edge judder if you can't turn the bl**dy things before you get to the bottom.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Hard to diagnose without video perhaps some summer movement analysis could start with you... There can be a lot of causes for edge judder
Another possibility is that you are overly countered which is very common in old schoolers
By memory i think you heel push at he bottom of turn
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Poster: A snowHead
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I'm sure Rob is right.
I get this on very firm pistes on fat skis. Sometimes it feels very committing to get a 100mm waist ski ALL THE WAY over onto its edge to carve the turn. If I don't do that and instead try to use a bit of knee angulation (rather than hip angulation) then I can get that grip-release thing going. Nasty.
On my 75mm waist skis I never get it, just because its much easier to set them at a high edge angle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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jedster, Well! Exactly!!?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, It's your suspension. I've always found that stiff legs are the primary cause of juddering and it's natural to 'tighten up' as speed and angle increase. Try he same turns and concentrate on keeping your mass forward, pressure into your boots via your shins . . . AND RELAX your knees to absorb the terrain that's bouncing your skis out of their (its track).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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rob@rar, skimottaret, just to add an another situation, trying to describe properly!
I was testing some quite stiff skis last week (flat tail and rocker tip), conditions were hard early morning snow, on one very hard and fast turn the edge judder was so extreme that the whole downhill ski jumped out of the turn went about a foot down the slope re engaged into the turn, then did it again twice before I got it back under control, I stopped and looked back (should have taken a photo) and there where three huge tracks/gouges in the snow where the ski had jumped out of the turn.
I put it down to to much edge angle for the conditions an getting into the back seat a little too much, I was pushing it a little but never had it happen like this before 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| livetoski wrote: |
| I put it down to to much edge angle for the conditions an getting into the back seat a little too much, I was pushing it a little but never had it happen like this before |
Not sure how too much edge angle could have caused that. Maybe getting in to the back seat a bit too much, and consequently stiffening your outside leg so you're unable to manage the pressure. Did the jump occur mid-turn or at the end of the turn?
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livetoski, DO you recall on what part of your foot where you pushing...I am guessing probably the heel and if a ski with stiff tails that could have been the culprit coupled with what Rob says...
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rob@rar,
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Did the jump occur mid-turn or at the end of the turn?
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was mid turn around a pretty tight corner on the piste, I was pushing it as hard as possible to see what the skis would do, think your right about back seat, the turn radius of the ski was 21m the other thought I had was that I was trying to do a 12m turn and it was just to much, for me or the ski prob me!
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skimottaret, I do not really remember, but you are prob right, I had the boots cranked forwards on the 21 degree setting which I found gives less margin for error on weighting toe to heel.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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why use 21 degrees? that is a very agressive forward lean the 15 degree would be better i would think....
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skimottaret,
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why use 21 degrees? that is a very agressive forward lean the 15 degree would be better i would think...
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yep agree used 15 most of the time, switced to 21 when it was steeper and for some of the faster more aggresive runs
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